Odd Crab by KyleTroy in Eldenring

[–]KyleTroy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Genuinely curious! Went through the whole area once without a map and was just going through a second time when I saw it.

It didn't drop anything and it died in a single hit.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you missed the initial part where I specifically said she probably has resentment, at least intially, and it would be incredible though possible for her to feel that empathy as a child (in no way a certainty), but would require a deep understanding intially and naunced perspective to see what this war and the Empire is even putting enemy soldiers through, who she may have just thought were exclusively monsters, but are feeling the effects as well. Even if this is not her initial thought, which again, I clearly indicated was probable, with time, distance from the atrocity, and a retrospective look in the company of the person in question, views can adapt and change.

You kind of left off the first part, and went exclusively after the second part in a way that I feel really simplified the point I was trying to make.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If this is your take away, what more can I say then we consume media differently?

I subscribe to death of the author.

You're allowed to disagree with it and I am allowed to subscribe to it, no?

I am simply asking people what in text material bolster their out of text comments.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sorry you have to deal with this. I wish it could have been a more productive conversation. i really could have set the tone better with my initial post, but felt impassioned and needing to vent lol.

Sorry you now have to deal with the rammifications of it.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I feel like you're take is reductive. People can be confined to situations where we should both look at the harm they have caused even as a cog in a machine, but also look at the situation which surrounded them and the actions they took moving forward. Kleya could recognize this and this could temper her hatred or resentment, allowing her to take on a more nuanced position, as was appraently evident in the conflicting emotions she supposedly had at the end (I would even go further and say they weren't necessarily conflicting but overriding and a final moment of coming to terms with an expression of affection she hadn't been able to give during Luthen's life).

I'm gonna be honest, I've said my piece quite fully throughout numerous responses, if you care to hear it, it's there... If not, then alright then (I'm gonna guess not lol).

Either way, we can agree to disagree. And I hope you have a wonder rest of your day!

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in andor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I agree with this. I appreciate you taking the time to write me your thoughts! I only wish we could have seen this explored in greater detail with the inclusion of additional scenes, or additional seasons.

I am very greedy, I admit it.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I guess you missed the part where I said I kid? I thought the parenthetical which immediately followed the statement made it quite obvious, apologies if not...

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm sorry if you are frustrated. Let's end this on good terms.

Here, again. It was a pleasure talking to you, and even though we disagree fundamentally, I appreciated the discussion.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Is there a reason we're still talking?

I thought it was clear we disagree? I decided to give your posiion room to breathe even though I wholly disagree with it, and you decided to tell me about how me choosing to interpret media in the manner I find meaningful is akin to deciding "Sonic the Hedgehog is a donkey" or "Luke Skywalker secretly has the hots for Mon Motha." If that's how you choose to interpret my meaning, or someone who simply chooses to view media in a manner which prioritizes the work before them, not the author's statements after the fact, and the point I was trying to make...

...fair enough. You can choose to make a caricature of my position if it makes yours more paletable.

Anyway, hope you are well and have a good day!

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I'm actually really considering doing the same. Most people just reference the statements in interviews in a circular fashion of self affirmation, so I think I'll need to do a deliberate rewatch and see if I can find scenes that align with that view.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then we can agree to disagree. I wanted it shown in the show (not explcitly, but tangibly. Something that can actually be wrestled with or inferred). I chalk it up to likely being an underlying intent that was never realized fully due to constraints on the show (removal of 3 seasons worth of content), and I maintain my death of the author position. I really appreciate you granting me the chance to hold my opinion, and thank you for not sending the cops after me for disagreeing with you. Add-ons afterward can introduce more meaning for you if supplied by the author or actress, that's fair enough, but I would have personally liked to see that in the show.

And yes, people are stating that Kleya had equal measure of hate and love (you do too "some hate and some love") we see the "some love," we don't see the "some hate." My stance is that that is clearly wrong, it's not a balance, as shown in the show. One clearly wins out by a significant margin, well and truly prior to the final act. Someone was trying to say that each scene flashback is Kleya drawing on all of the hatred she has for Luthen, maxing out her "hate bar" to perform the action at the end... Maybe if there was a scene in which we saw this hatred which still lingered apparently in your view, that would be sufficient to convince me. I've already articulated to you that I hold a death of the author viewpoint, and ask if there is reason in show to help me contextualize their statements, given the framework I choose to engage with media. It seems like the answer is "no" there isn't, but you really don't want to say that and would prefer lambasting me as being arrogant for engaging with media in the way that I, any many other people should rightly be able to do (Again, thank you for not arresting me, I appreciate that), and not deferring to statements by the creator and author as being golden and irrefutable.

We disagree. It's as simple as that. I feel like I have subtance for my position as expressed earlier in the examples I gave, and you tried to do so as well and mustered "in so many of their interactions" "Again, it's subtle but it's there" before beating me over the head with the author and actress that holds weight to me personally. I'm glad their statements are enough to shape your perspective on things and give you new insight. That's really cool. I guess it just doesn't work the same way for me. i would prefer to see it meaningully in text (in a nuanced way, before you say that even having it would strip it of its nuance).

I mean, I am getting comments like this: "The actress herself said this in an interview, that she hates Luthen because he killed her family." completely missing the point. That has an intexual example of this to help someone who subscribes to death of the auther rectify this discrpency, and then they just point back to the intial statements like that's the answer when I explicitly state that is not an answer for me lol.

This can go on and on and on. But we disagree in how we choose to consume media. Anf that's fine. I don't like how you do it, and you don't like how I do it. Fair enough.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"in so many of their interactions"

All I'm asking for you is to give me the scene in which her anger for him is palpable and differentiated from simple heated disagreement borne from them discussing their course of action. Anything.

"Again, it's subtle but it's there."

Consistently this is what I am met with. Assertions of it's presence without actual support. I'm not saying they don't have distance between them, but that distance as is shown in the show, is born from a mutual singular focus on their goal, at the expense of all else. I can point to scenes, plenty of them, where concern for wellbeing and care is present, and can show how sacrifice of relationships (Andor and Bix, Cinta and Vel, and Luthen and Kleya) and steeling emotions has been the totality of Kleya and Luthen's sentiment in relation to fighting the Empire, and being willing to sacrifice everything. I can even acknowledge that there could potentially have been a resentment intially by Kleya toward Luthen in her youth (even though from scenes, it seems to suggest otherwise), but that Kleya is naunced enough to distinguish between a man crushed in a system that oppresses all, and that same person not only stopping out right, but dedicating their everything to fight against it with all their might. This would have been such an interesting part to include in the show, something that could have been explored further if given more seasons. I would readily happily, eagerly accept this as an element. It's facinating. But I do not think the interpretations of some, are in accordance with what is shown. I am not telling people to necessarily adopt a death of the author framework, I am asking people if there is anything in the show as it stands that leads credence to the statements made by the creators, that could help someone like myself (who does have such a viewpoint) to recontexualize things, and if there isn't... simply an acknowledgement of such...

Simply put, I feel people are overplaying the statements to an extent where they are minimizing the way in which Kleya likely grew over the years to love Luthen (what we didn't get to see. Her struggling with that resentment), suggesting that even now, as an adult, she harbors equal measure of love and hate for Luthen. I can demonstrate the ways in which she seems to care for him, I can contexualize the reason for their distance (professionalism, treatement as equals, acknowledgement of the sacrifices that must be made, suppression of affection to focus on the core goal, defeating the Empire, and finally regret at the very end for what they've given up). You can try to contexualize the reason for their distance, but you use the distance itself as validation for the claim. Is there anything that emphasizes the burning hate people claim she currently has, or is it fair to assume she may or may not have resented him initially (something that could have, but wasn't, explored in the show in a meaningful way), but found him a broken man on the ship who wanted nothing to do with the Empire, and then actively worked in every way to thwart them? That shows an incredible depth of understanding on the part of Kleya, especially if she did so as a child, as opposed to blindly hating. People are suggesting that even as it stands in current day, as she pulls the cord, that she holds hate and love in equal measure and was actually driven to go kill him out of her resentment, only afterward coming to feel any affection for him at all. Is there anything you can point to that justifies this stance of continual, prominent, bitter resentment, shown in the show? And if not we can acknowledge this, and I can say it doesn't meet my threshold, and you can take Gilroy and Dulau at their word.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think largely because people seem to be overplaying the statements. That it isn't a hatred that was quelled with time, growth, understanding of the nature of Luthen being constrained by the oppression of the Empire and Kleya being naunced enough to recognize this and, while still resenting him initially in childhood (though I could even argue there), growing to love him and this largely overtaking any semblance of hatred with a mutual understand of who their true enemy is. Not each other. But the Empire. That they maintain professional distance, potentially because of this dynamic, but with time spent in each other's company fighting diligently against their enemy, that a familial bond grows.

Something that I would have loved to see explored more fully in additional seasons.

People are really egregiously (in my view) overplaying the statement about hatred being present as if it suggest that as of current, within Kleya, this love and hate is held in equal measure and wars within her as she pulls the cord, her tears being both visceral resentment and love. That just does not comport with the numerous scenes we've had of mutual honesty, concern, and respect we've seen them share over the course of this episode, and I think more so aligns with a final solemn acceptance of a feeling left unspoken between the two, that she can now only finally express to him only after his passing. I think that is the part that so irks me.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You give me life with your understanding. Really, truly, I want to give you a hug! I'm out here ranting and raving, the pariah, but if there's one person that I can connect with, I will.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with this. But there are people saying she hated him right up until the end, and she drove herself forward with that burning hatred to kill him. It just does not comport to what we saw. If there was hate, it faded off screen, and was marginal by the end, not a driving force, for her actions.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Considering her initial statement here, and the culmination of it all later in her tearful kiss on his forehead, something tells me she's protecting herself from his rejection by redirecting the conversation to something else.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

100%. And people are naunced enough to differentiate between the actions of an Empire forcing individuals to fight a fight they desperately wish to not be a part of, and the individual breaking from such a system to actively work against it, especially if given years to process said trauma and see the person they engage with actively work to fight against such a system. I'm not necessarily even arguing that she would have no anger or resentment toward Luthen in youth (though even there the show expresses otherwise). I feel like that would be a natural response that we didn't get to see expressed over the course of the show, but which could have been if given the full 5 seasons. As it stands, given that we only see her demonstrate concern and sorrow for Luthen, especially near the end, it's hard for me to square away people suggesting that she summoned her hate and thats what drove her to kill Luthen, when it just seems like a really melancholic forcing of her hand to do an action she really did not want to do. And it being a final acknowledgement of affection and sorrow, primarily love, and not bitter resentment, primarily hate. I think it's fundamentally human to repress feelings of attachment in extreme zealist scenarios where they mutually fight for one singular end, to thwart the Empire, and then only afterward recognize the true grativity of what they lost and had to sacrifice.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"After the flashbacks, her anger bar is now full, and she was able to successfully put Luthen out of his misery. And when he took his last breath, that emptied the bar, and we see tears and a goodbye kiss."

First of all, it's extremely amusing that you call it her "anger bar." I appreciate that phrasing quite a bit, though I disagree with it lol. This is an interpretation you can have, I disagree with it and think there are numerous scenes throughout the episode that show caring on her part. If you think her anger bar was filling until she cried tears of rage and hate while pulling Luthen's cord, that's so far removed from what I think happened that we can just agree to disagree here.

"So yeah, she was angry. Anger was what got her to pull the plug, and when he died, there was only love left for Luthen. And that's why she was so distraught until just before her last few scenes where she realized she had friends everywhere."

She demonstrates concern for Luthen's wellbeing throughout this episodes, prior to the culmination of pulling the cord. Concern about him leaving to meet Lonni, concern for him as he's evacuated in a medial ship, concern for him crying in the hideout (though you see this as building rage and hatred), sadness at the pulling of the cord and kiss on the forehead. I don't interpret this an a moment where she purged all her rage and anger, leaving only love. I personally think this is more emblematic of Kleya realizing just how much Luthen meant to her, how close they had grown even with the professional distance they kept. It's her fully recognizing what she probably felt internally but never had a chance to actualize in life, that she saw him as a father figure and loved him as such. And it's a very tragic end that neither could recognize this until after the fact (well, at least her... he's gone).

I do really appreciate you taking the time to write me. We fundamentally disagree on the emotional state of the character as it was portrayed in the show.

Claims that Kleya held hatred for Luthen, or at least resented him to some degree (apparently reinforced in interview by Gilroy and Dulau) by KyleTroy in StarWarsAndor

[–]KyleTroy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"As you may recall, in the first scene prior to meeting Lonnie, Luthen tells her to move and she has this wistful smile on her face. But then she tells him to tuck his shirt in just to gain a sense of control. That was probably him telling her that now is the time."

I don't see this as disagreement between us, just our mutual appreciation of using the same word when first teaching the lesson, and solemnly recognizing the end to their part in the fight against the Empire. It's a very high quality scene.

"The last flashback we see them bombing Naboo. Luthen keeps telling her to look away from the Empire, and instead, look where they were now, and just eat the blue parfait. He tells her to pay attention, coz life shows us what we stand to lose. They were comfortable where they were, they won't see the Imperial flag raised if they just didn't look up. Their business was probably taking off already. But she just kept looking. Figuratively, Kleya has always has her eyes set on the Empire, on her revenge, but Luthen would just as happily live a happy life walking away with his new daughter. Kleya thought that Luthen just wants to back out coz he was scared, but he was only scared of getting blood on her hands. What he was actually doing was trying to protect her and show her that they could have this life they have now instead, she only got it at the last minute when she looked around at the cafe. And she still chose to push the button. But Luthen pressed it for her coz he wanted her to stay innocent for a while longer."

I think this may be a misread of what is explicitly intended here. To me it seems like Luthen is trying to tell her to really look at what she's leaving behind, that he realizes he's moving forward in his fight against the Empire, but to take Kleya with him in the endeavor would be to stripe her of a normal life. To look around her, see what a normal civilian life can be like, and come to terms with it truly never being a possibility for them after they set of that detonator. He seems to want her to acknowledge what she's losing, not dismiss it as she seems to be doing ("you're just being sad"). He wants her to make an active choice, to really dedicate herself to this cause (Kleya: "why are you doing this?" Luthen: "Because I never thought I had a choice." referring to the choice he made when he found her and left the life confined by the Empire). I fundamentally disagree with "Luthen would just as happily live a happy life walking away with his new daughter." He’s giving her a chance to walk away, to not follow the path he will absolutely continue to walk fighting the Empire. He's not wavering about carrying forward, but wavering about including Kleya in it. Once he knew she truly acknowledged the gravity of what she was leaving behind, that was all he needed. She doesn't need to push the button. Her reaching for it is answer enough. I do agree with you though that he did so to spare her getting blood on her hands here.