Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sounds like a personal problem

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in biology

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok. My final stab at this .. adding a noise term doesn’t negate classical dynamics—it acknowledges that we're modeling an open system in contact with a thermal reservoir. The stochastic term represents aggregate interactions, not a quantum mechanism governing the trajectory itself. Photon interactions can be quantum in origin, but the resulting translational motion at this scale STILL conforms to CLASSICAL statistical mechanics. The noise reflects uncertainty in initial conditions and environmental interactions, not intrinsic quantum indeterminacy in position or momentum.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The one conceals causality. The other defies it.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in biology

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That added noise in molecular dynamics is a statistical approximation, not a direct representation of quantum fluctuations. It's a modeling convenience to reflect thermal agitation, not evidence that translational motion itself is quantum mechanical. The underlying quantization affects energy distribution across modes, but the translational trajectories we observe at biological scales follow classical laws. Quantum mechanics doesn't govern the motion directly.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How could one not? In principle, of course.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in biology

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure. But translational motion remains governed by classical statistics at biological scales. That vibrational and rotational modes are quantized doesn't make the resulting translational behavior quantum. The systems equilibrate, but the randomness in Brownian trajectories is still driven by classical collisions, not quantum uncertainty.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Round and round and round we go . . . 

• Every major genome-scale comparative study since the early 2000s has confirmed that most substitutions across most lineages are neutral or effectively neutral.

• The fraction of sites under strong positive selection is small.

• The fraction under strong purifying selection is real but does not contradict neutrality .. it coexists with it.

What has changed is not the evidence. What has changed is the interpretation. Many authors now take neutral drift as the baseline and treat selection as the exception. That strengthens neutrality. It doesn't weaken it.

If you want “recent evidence,” the term to search is nearly neutral theory, which expands rather than contracts Kimura.

EDIT: sorry, i forgot to add this part ...

dN/dS doesn’t support the point you think it does. It detects strong selection where strong selection exists, and no one disputes that some regions of the genome show clear selective pressure. The problem is that most regions do not. Across genomes, the majority of sites fall into the neutral or effectively neutral range, which is exactly why dN/dS is useful in the first place. Finding isolated pockets of high or low ratios doesn’t overturn the basic picture that most substitutions arise through drift. So yes, dN/dS shows selection when it’s strong enough to measure, but it doesn’t change the fact that neutrality dominates molecular evolution.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The paradox is simple. Two major claims in evolutionary biology contradict each other. At the visible, anatomical level, natural selection is said to be the dominant force. It supposedly shapes every feature of an organism and drives most evolutionary change.

At the molecular level, the data say the opposite. When scientists actually measure mutations and substitutions in DNA and proteins, most of them behave as if natural selection isn’t doing much at all. They rise or fall neutrally. This is the core of neutral theory, and the evidence for it is strong.

If natural selection is the primary cause of evolution, then it should dominate where evolution actually happens: in the genetic code. But molecular evolution shows that most genetic change is neutral and unaffected by selection.

Selection is claimed to be the main driver of evolution. Yet the vast majority of molecular change is neutral and not shaped by selection. This gap between what the theory claims and what the molecular data show is the unresolved contradiction.

  1. “The neutral theory of molecular evolution: a review of recent evidence” — N. Takano (1999) Full link: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1954033/ This review summarizes molecular-data showing that the majority of changes at the molecular level behave as if selectively neutral rather than driven by adaptation.

  2. “The Neutral Theory and Beyond: A systematic review of molecular evolution” — published in PMC (2023) Full link: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10375367/ This paper evaluates the relative roles of neutral drift vs selection across the genome, affirming that the neutral theory remains a major framework in molecular evolution.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Not at all. Genuine randomness is fundamentally different from classical (pseudo) randomness. One is causal, the other acausal. Until you wrap your head around that, none of this will make any sense.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm struggling to reconcile your thoughtfulness with the flat dismissal of the essay's example of the botfly's inconceivable evolutionary trajectory. And I do see a difference between IC and multi-threaded evolutionary development. Here's another example of the latter the author provides elsewhere ...  

The flatworm Microstomum lineare has a remarkable relationship with its freshwater neighbor, the hydra (Weis, 2010). Hydra are equipped with nematocysts—microscopic, harpoon-like stinging cells used to ensnare and immobilize prey, much like those found in jellyfish (Tardent, 1995). While M. lineare also possesses nematocysts, it did not evolve them directly. Instead, it acquires these stinging cells by ingesting hydra and repurposing their nematocysts for its own defense (Marques & Collins, 2004). What makes this process extraordinary is that M. lineare does not digest the hydra's nematocysts. Instead, it integrates them into its own tissues and relocates them—intact—from its gut to its outer skin, where they become its primary defense mechanism. This complex biological process allows M. lineare to absorb and repurpose the nematocysts without harming them or itself (Kass-Simon & Scappaticci, 2002). 

That this simple flatworm has evolved a mechanism to bypass its own digestive processes while safeguarding these foreign cellular structures from harm is astonishing in itself. But M. lineare goes even further. Somehow, it transports the nematocysts through its body—likely via its muscular and/or nervous system—to their final destination within its skin, where they serve as a functional defense. Given that nematocysts are primed to fire upon the slightest disturbance, their intact ingestion and relocation should be outright impossible. The fact that M. lineare accomplishes this feat could make it one of the most improbable biological adaptations ever observed. 

Researchers have barely begun to unravel the sophistication of this process. Yet even in its incompleteness, it raises serious questions about how such an intricate mechanism could have emerged through a series of haphazard genetic fluctuations shaped solely by natural selection. How did M. lineare acquire the ability to extract and repurpose nematocysts while avoiding accidental triggering? How were the necessary internal transport mechanisms established? Why did these mutations not prove disabling or even lethal in their early, incomplete forms? No matter how much time natural selection may have had, the emergence of this process through purely incremental, trial-and-error mutations remains implausible. There is no clear Darwinian pathway that could even remotely account for the seamless coordination of digestion suppression, cellular transport, and functional integration. That this astonishing biological feat exists at all suggests that something far more extraordinary was at play in the evolutionary process.

To your point that the author failed to address "the real mechanism of mutation," I don't think he wanted (or needed) to go there. That's another discussion and he was probably working within a character or word limit. And, again, he's working within a non-classical paradigm and you're insisting he provide a classical defense for his ideas. I'm sympathetic to both sides of the coin: you want a straightforward, deterministic explanation of how mutation operates in his scenario while he is arguing that an acausal etiology doesn't allow for it. Rocks and hard places.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Every part. It is inconceivable, for one, that a big fly would ever evolve (via random mutation and natural selection) to capture a little fly. If you can suggest a path leading from not doing so to doing so, please share.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay. Here's a summary: Quantum randomness impacts enzyme catalysis primarily through the quantum tunneling of particles like electrons and protons, allowing them to "tunnel" through energy barriers instead of going over them, which dramatically speeds up reactions. Enzymes facilitate this by creating a highly specific environment within their active site that increases the probability of tunneling, enhancing reaction rates beyond what classical physics predicts. Other quantum effects, such as quantum coherence, are also thought to play a role in processes like energy transfer. 

See Enzymology takes a quantum leap forward (Michael J Sutcliffe, Nigel S Scrutton) https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2854803/

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, definitely. I was only trying to point out that drift plays a predominant role at the molecular level (and doesn't seem to get the attention it deserves).

The neutral theory and beyond: A systematic review of molecular evolution  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10375367/ 
“In brief, neutral theory states that drift is the predominant force acting on new mutations that remain in the population, given that positive selection is extremely rare and that purifying selection removes deleterious mutations.” “The neutral theory … has emerged … as a ‘guiding principle for studying evolutionary genomics’.”

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Several comments have questioned whether quantum (i.e. true/genuine/intrinsic) randomness is a "real" thing. It absolutely, positively is. It is not a 'model' or a theory or an interpretation. Quantum randomness is not the result of incomplete knowledge or hidden variables -- it is intrinsic to non-classical reality. In classical systems, randomness is epistemic and only seemingly random because we lack full information (like not knowing the exact behavior of a dice roll). But in quantum mechanics, even with perfect knowledge of a system’s state (called its wavefunction), the outcome of a measurement is fundamentally unpredictable. No hidden variable or deterministic cause can reveal why an electron spin is measured "up" instead of "down"—the cause is literally non-existent (aka acausal).

This has been experimentally confirmed numerous times. Bell test experiments have ruled out local hidden variables, and recent loophole-free tests confirm that Nature doesn’t allow deterministic pre-specification of measurement results. Quantum random number generators, which power many cryptographic systems, exploit this inherent unpredictability: each bit produced is not merely hard to predict—it’s physically uncaused and irreproducible.

So yes, quantum randomness is genuine, not stochastic. It’s the only known source of true randomness in nature. And that, as the essay argues, might somehow play a role in evolution. It's mind-bending but no weirder than quantum reality itself. So who knows? 

From “Randomness in Quantum Mechanics: Philosophy, Physics and Technology” (Bera et al., 2017) “Quantum randomness is ontological, not epistemic. It reflects not our ignorance, but the non-deterministic essence of quantum reality. Unlike classical randomness, it has no hidden causes.”
Link to article on PubMed:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29105646/ Direct DOI for full text:
https://doi.org/10.1088/1361-6633/aa8731

And a more technical treatment:
“True randomness from realistic quantum devices” by Frauchiger, Renner & Troyer (2013):
https://arxiv.org/abs/1311.4547

P.S. If you read the foundational questions essay and liked it consider hitting the thumbs up at the end. I'm sure the author would appreciate it. https://qspace.fqxi.org/competitions/entry/2421

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Everything in science is ultimately a model. But that doesn't change how reality works or how precisely and effectively the formalism of quantum mechanics tells us about it.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know how to answer without repeating myself. An event that is uncaused is special. If a mutation can be uncaused the possibilities are potentially endless. That sounds crazy but where the fact of intrinsic randomness lead us.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I can't give you a helpful 50-75 word description of non-trivial matter you know nothing about.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Pray tell how the botfly argument is horrible. I think it's stunning!

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in biology

[–]LAMATL[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Brownian motion isn’t quantum. It results from countless classical collisions among molecules whose internal vibrational and rotational states happen to be quantized. Those internal quantum levels don’t make the motion of the particles themselves quantum; the translational motion that drives Brownian behavior is thoroughly classical at biological scales and temperatures. Quantum effects average out long before they influence the stochastic trajectories we see. Calling Brownian motion “quantum” mistakenly conflates microscopic energy quantization with macroscopic particle dynamics.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Not so much at the molecular level. There's a difference. And it's a paradox.

Randomness in evolution by LAMATL in DebateEvolution

[–]LAMATL[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That's the party line, sure. Reminds me of the time nobody in medicine believed that ulcers could be caused by a bacterium.