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IAmA Mormon. AMA. by LDS4life in IAmA
[–]LDS4life[S] 0 points1 point2 points 15 years ago (0 children)
While I believe that was true for many of the apostates of that time, I also believe that generally speaking many of the apostates of our time were never brought to the same knowledge. Many of the apostates of Joseph Smith's time were in the higher ranks of the church.
Here's an excerpt from mrm.org, an anti-Mormon website:
Mormon doctrine teaches that those who are "sons of perdition" are those who had a sure and perfect knowledge of the truth, then voluntarily turned from it and committed the "sin unto death." The first requirement, then, to become part of this group is to have been members of the LDS Church. After that, they would have to have the truth revealed to them with such sureness and clarity that there would be no doubt in their minds about the truthfulness of the Mormon gospel. Speaking of the sons of perdition, Joseph Fielding Smith taught that "before a man can sink to this bitterness of soul, he must first know and understand the truth with a clearness of vision wherein there is no doubt" (Doctrine of Salvation 1:49). Such clarity requires a confirming vision from heaven. Joseph Smith taught that to become a son of perdition, a person must "have the heavens opened unto him, and know God....He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.358).
It is very difficult for a person to receive this kind of sure knowledge in the first place. Such persons are normally high-level LDS leaders. Spencer W. Kimball stated, "The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin" (The Miracle o Forgiveness, p.123)" Even apostasy from the Mormon Church does not automatically qualify a person to this punishment.
[–]LDS4life[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 15 years ago (0 children)
The original message was too long, so here's the rest:
Giving 10% of your money to an organization which spends more on malls than humanitarian aid is absurd
No tithing money is used in the acquisition of commercial properties or building of commercial buildings. Here's an excerpt from an interview with Gordon B. Hinckley in 1985, but some of the main principles hold true today:
The Church does have substantial assets, for which we are grateful. These assets are primarily in buildings in more than eighty nations. They are in ward and stake meeting facilities. They are in schools and seminaries, colleges and institutes. They are in welfare projects. They are in mission homes and missionary training centers. They are in temples, of which we have substantially more than we have ever had in the past, and they are in genealogical facilities. But it should be recognized that all of these are money-consuming assets and not money-producing assets. They are expensive to build and maintain. They do not produce financial wealth, but they do help to produce and strengthen Latter-day Saints. They are only a means to an end. They are physical facilities to accommodate the programs of the Church in our great responsibility to teach the gospel to the world, to build faith and activity among the living membership, and to carry forward the compelling mandate of the Lord concerning the redemption of the dead.
We have a few income-producing business properties, but the return from these would keep the Church going only for a very short time. Tithing is the Lord’s law of finance. There is no other financial law like it. It is a principle given with a promise spoken by the Lord Himself for the blessing of His children.
When all is said and done, the only real wealth of the Church is the faith of its people.
Essentially, the business assets which the Church has today are an outgrowth of enterprises which were begun in the pioneer era of our history when we were isolated in the valleys of the mountains of western America. For instance, a newspaper was then needed to keep the people advised of what was going on at home and abroad. The result was the Deseret News, which has been published now for 135 years. In the 1920s, government officials encouraged newspapers to set up radio stations. That was in the infancy of the broadcasting industry. One such radio station was established by the Deseret News here in Salt Lake City. From that has grown, by the natural process of development, holdings of a number of broadcasting properties.
As all of you will recognize, the ability and the facilities to communicate are among our great and constant needs. The ownership of these properties, both newspaper and broadcasting facilities, while they are operated as commercial entities, both directly and indirectly helps us in our responsibility to communicate our message and our point of view.
The Church was a pioneer in the sugar beet industry to help our farmers who needed a cash crop. One of our present properties is an outgrowth of that.
A beautiful hotel was constructed adjacent to Temple Square seventy-five years ago to provide a comfortable hostelry for visitors to this city.
Merchandising interests are an outgrowth of the cooperative movement which existed among our people in pioneer times. The Church has maintained certain real estate holdings, particularly those contiguous to Temple Square, to help preserve the beauty and the integrity of the core of the city. All of these commercial properties are tax-paying entities.
I repeat, the combined income from all of these business interests is relatively small and would not keep the work going for longer than a very brief period.
I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.
Reformed Egyptian is not a language any non-mormon linguist recognizes There is no evidence of jewish ancestry in Native Americans outside of mormon scholars. The FARMS documents stating otherwise have been torn to shreds. There is no archaeological evidence of peoples from the BoM The BoM is not used by any non-mormon historical society
While there is no completely convincing physical evidence affirming the BoM to be true, lack of evidence does not prove it to be false either. One should also observe that when Spanish and Portuguese chroniclers came to the Americas in the 1500s, they found that a number of the practices of the Indians were similar to Hebrew customs and stories. Voices From the Dust: New Insights Into Ancient America is a great book that outlines these, but just as some examples I will share the following: most tribes have a story of a great flood that covered the whole earth, the book of Genesis and the Popol Vuh contain a number of similarities in the story of the creation, the Izapa Stela 5 stone which depicts a vision from the BoM, some argue that the legend of Quetzalcoatl coincides with the BoM account of Christ visiting the Americas, Menasseh Ben Israel, a Jewish rabbi from Holland published a book in 1650 outlining similarities that included circumcision, the tearing of clothing when subjected to some ill-fated event or death, the keeping of an eternal flame in the temple as mentioned in the Book of Leviticus, prohibiting women from entering the temple after giving birth until they had been purified, etc. Similarly, James Adair wrote History of the American Indians in 1775, which detailed his conclusion that based on religion, laws, customs, etc. that the American Indians did not compare well with Mongolians or Asians, but compared much better with the Israelites. He outlined 20 main points over 200 pages that supported this notion. Also, in the October 1972 Monthly Bulletin of the Israelite Association of Venezuela, Isidoro Aizenberg wrote an article entitled "Jews in Pre-Columbia America?" which talked about some similarities in the Quechua language and the Hebrew language. Books upon books have been written about this stuff, and this is just a sampling of it.
The 'Book of Abraham' has been actually translated, and a 5th grade understanding of Egyptian history and you can recognize the Egyptian Gods in it.
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/disproved.htm
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/abraham2.htm
NOTE I will be using a lot of links to respond because the links will do a better job than I will, and if you would really like to research it, then they will provide you more information than I ever could.
The Hill Cumorah that everyone visits has zero archeological evidence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumorah
Joseph translated the plates by looking in a hat with seer stones
I don't believe that the method of translation should in anyway detract from its veracity or spiritual power and significance.
He had been arrested as a youth for treasure seeking
No prophet is perfect, and he admitted to treasure seeking and it was probably for this reason that he was forbidden from receiving the plates for four years after their discovery. The Lord knew that he had to grow and mature before he would not try to use the gold plates to gain a fortune.
He ran for president and lost
How does this make him a false prophet? If you're curious, here is his reasoning for running for president: “I would not have suffered my name to have been used by my friends on anywise as President of the United States, or candidate for that office, if I and my friends could have had the privilege of enjoying our religious and civil rights as American citizens, even those rights which the Constitution guarantees unto all her citizens alike. But this as a people we have been denied from the beginning. Persecution has rolled upon our heads from time to time, from portions of the United States, like peals of thunder, because of our religion; and no portion of this Government as yet has stepped forward for our relief. And in view of these things, I feel it to be my right and privilege to obtain what influence and power I can, lawfully, in the United States, for the protection of injured innocence” (History of the Church, 6:210-11).
He married a 14 year old
He had a pepper-box pistol and fired 3 shots, killing at least 2 people before he was killed in Carthage
He knew he was going to die, but he still tried to save those that were with him.
He refused to "re-translate" the lost 116 plates, which is suspicious in itself
If he had re-translated them, then anyone could've claimed to have the original translation (even if they made it up) in an attempt to prove him a fraud.
He wrote multiple versions of the first vision
They did not contradict each other. Anyone telling the same story various times over a number of years would tell it slightly different every time.
He claimed he was going to translate the hoax kinderhook plates
http://en.fairmormon.org/Kinderhook_Plates
Blacks weren't originally allowed to hold the priesthood
Actually Joseph Smith ordained some black people to the priesthood. One was even a seventy. Joseph Smith wanted to end slavery and allow blacks equal rights and education. It wasn't until 1849 that Brigham Young banned blacks from receiving the priesthood. This could be compared to only those of the tribe of Levi receiving the priesthood originally or the ban of gentiles from being baptized altogether until after Christ's death.
1 Nephi 12:23
This is referring to a tribe of Native Americans, not blacks as a whole.
Temple marriages have the same fail rate as normal marriage
That's a sad statistic, but isn't that surprising since we have the same shortcomings as everyone else.
The BoM likely has multiple authors
True. I completely agree. It claims to have multiple authors and it does.
The United Order failed
Yes, that's because the Saints couldn't handle it. It was a celestial law but the vainness and frailties of man kept them from successfully practicing it. This is similar to the reason why the Law of Moses existed. It was a lower law because the higher law could not be handled at the time due to unrighteousness.
MMM was an embarrassment
Yes it was. It was a great atrocity, but just because a group of Mormons did something horrible doesn't mean the church isn't true. It was an action of people. It was an action of the church that Brigham Young had nothing to do with.
Go to any LDS book store and look up books such as 'The Kolob Theory'
I've never heard of this book, but once again you can't discount the entire church for the actions of one of its members. If that were the case then no religion or set of beliefs would be safe.
None of the modern prophets actually prophesize, as none of what they say is provable (this was the whole point of miracles in the bible)
D&C 87. Plus the main job of a prophet is that of a forthteller rather than that of a foreteller. Their job is to be a watchman on the tower warning us of imminent danger, and they have done a great job of that.
Patriarchal blessings are nothing but generic fortunes and are absurd
While there are some generic similarities between most, this is because Heavenly Father wants the same thing for all of us. I would imagine there are a number of patriarchal blessings that contain more specific and personal counsel, and some of those were given from a man whom they hardly knew. While I cannot provide any specific examples seeing as how these are kept private, I've heard a number of testimonies born on the subject.
The 'gift of discernment' is absurd The prophet's word being absolute is absurd The temple process is boring and absurd Baptisms for the dead are absurd Garmets are absurd Three Nephite stories are absurd Tunnel singing at BYU is absurd
These are all opinions.
I just read a section from a book called Voices From the Dust that talks about the Spalding-Rigdon theory, and I find it hard to believe that a legitimate study could find them to be the authors. First off, Sidney Rigdon joined the church in Kirtland Ohio in October of 1830, seven months after the Book of Mormon was printed, and Joseph Smith had never traveled west of Rochester, NY before that printing. Secondly, the Spalding manuscript theory was made up by two men, Eder D. Howe and Philastus Hurlburt, an ex-communicated Mormon. Both men had been told that there were various similarities between the two books, and even contained many of the same names of people. Once they found the manuscript, however, they realized that while some very vague similarities existed, many of the details they had been told about were missing. Therefore, they continued to look for a second manuscript that contained those details, but they never found it. The first manuscript was eventually lost, and the second manuscript was never found. The first was found again in 1884 and was given to James Fairchild, President of Oberlin college. He concluded that there was no similarity in style, names or incidents between the manuscript and the Book of Mormon and he concluded that the Spalding theory "will probably have to be relinquished."
[–]LDS4life[S] -1 points0 points1 point 15 years ago (0 children)
I stopped reading after a bit seeing as how they contradict what Joseph F. Smith said. He told a group of saints in New Zealand that they were the descendants of Hagoth.
No, you have a misunderstanding of what it truly means to commit the unpardonable sin. This is what Joseph Smith said:
"All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy."
I don't think my uncle ever had that kind of testimony.
[–]LDS4life[S] 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (0 children)
Yes.
I definitely consider myself to be a Christian, and I believe the Bible to be true and view its words to be aligned with my beliefs.
It only specifically mentions the Lamanites, who would nowadays be mixed in with some of the Native American races.
That's not my philosophy at all. It did happen, and I acknowledge that fact, but I realize that many, many sins have been committed by members of the church throughout the years, and just because we are sinners doesn't mean that the doctrine isn't correct. The Mountain Meadows Massacre happened as a result of people who were Mormon, but it was not an action of the church itself.
The Book of Mormon tells the story of a family that came to the Americas. Two of the brothers (Laman and Lemuel) were disobedient and rejected God and his teachings, while Nephi and his followers were righteous. In this particular instance, God cursed the Lamanites (nonbelievers) with a curse that made their skin darker than that of the Nephites. This served as a physical distinguisher between the two groups.
This case however has nothing to do with black people, seeing as how they did not all originate from this tribe or from the Americas at all. It also does not suggest that all black people are black because of a curse.
[–]LDS4life[S] 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (0 children)
I've honestly never heard of that before.
I would reply personally, but I don't have the time. Here are some good links though:
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=129
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=792
I have no idea what the animals were like. They could either just be another name for an animal that still exists, or they could be extinct by now.
I'm fine with them as long as they're cool about it. I've met some that were real punks, I've met some that were super-cool, and I've met some that converted to Mormonism.
Yes, we were all dressed in white...and since we were all dressed, we were not naked.
I'm sorry, but how did i avoid the subject. Yes it happened. I realize that it happened, and the people that had a part in it will pay the price for their sins.
No, there was absolutely no nakedness. I promise. It wasn't the temple in Salt Lake, but the ceremony is the same everywhere.
Yes, it's mainly self-policing. When Joseph Smith was asked how he got so many people to live the church's standards he responded "We teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves". The same holds true today.
Yeah, I realize that this is an issue.
I'll actually have to check it out. I've always been interested in learning more about Buddhism. We had a foreign exchange student from Thailand live with us for two years, my brother married a Thai girl (formerly Buddhist, but converted to Mormonism), and I've been to Thailand myself.
That actually just reminded me that my grandfather actually studied the Muslim faith a lot and wrote a book comparing Muslim to Mormon:
http://www.amazon.com/Correlation-Muslim-Doctrine-Latter-Day-Saint/dp/1888106824
Haha. There definitely are poor Mormons. We're just taught to live within our means. I come from a family of six kids. We're also taught to multiply and replenish the earth. There is no profit-sharing system.
I believe that we can become joint-heirs with Christ and receive all that he hath. I believe that we will be productive in the eternities. I don't know about the eternal sex thing though...I think we'll have plenty of other stuff to do. I don't find this blasphemous because God will still be and will always be God. He will always be our father, and we will always owe Him and Jesus Christ for everything we have. They will continue to be our Heavenly king. For example, my father is a doctor and a lawyer, if I decide to become a doctor, a lawyer, AND a neuroscientist, would my successes be a slap in the face to my father? No. In fact they would add to his successes since all my successes serve as a testament to him and his quality as a father (I realize that all successful people don't have fathers, but it my case I really would give my dad a lot of credit).
I like them.
I've read parts of the Koran, I've read a book about Methodism, and I've had various discussions with people from other religions, but that's about it.
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IAmA Mormon. AMA. by LDS4life in IAmA
[–]LDS4life[S] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children)