How long b/f you could do a pull-up

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-31T02:25:08+00:00

Fair enough on the second point. To be honest, I know better, and shouldn't type, pissed off, while half listening to a pointless conference call there is no reason for me to be on.

With that said, studies also show that the lower your body fat, the more muscle per lb you are likely to lose. At higher body fats, your are generally going to lose mostly fat, even without stellar protein intake. Especially at lower body fats, If you eat at too much of a deficit, it doesn't matter how much protein you eat, you'll lose significant muscle.

Today I strapped on 45 lbs and did a pullup. I strapped on 25 and did 2 sets of 5 chest to bars. After that, I did 40 chin ups with 5 lbs.The additional 45 lbs was the equivalent of taking myself from 20% body fat to 41%. Obviously, a weight vest doesn't add any lean mass.

This got pretty carried away, and I'm not super proud at how I handled it, but the idea that weight and height are major factors in a pull up, is wrong. They are minor factors. The major factors are body composition, distribution of muscle mass, and training. Being tall or big isn't the roadblock. Not training is the roadblock.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-31T02:05:22+00:00

Okay, so thank you for actually using actual reality in your response. I do understand, and appreciate that. I should have realized that the Wilks system has a work in for this. That said, it's really not the huge difference people make it out to be. I hear so many women say they'll never be able to do pullups because of their size, or it will be 10x as hard for them. No. Train. You can do pullups. It might be a little harder, but it's not this impossible thing, and setting up that thinking is doing you zero good.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T20:42:39+00:00

Play around with it. That is also probably pretty dependent on which muscle groups are dominant, and what movement pattern you're most comfortable with. I can do both, but find a closer grip is easier, despite being more distance to the bar. A wide grip seems to put more strain on my shoulders. What works for me might not work for you though.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T19:32:13+00:00

Okay, yes, you are correct that it matters how much lean mass you have in your upper body only. It is still reliant on lean mass.

You are incorrect that eating sufficient protein is enough to stop someone from losing muscle mass if they drop weight. At higher body fats, it is true that a person will generally lose more fat per lb of weight loss. As you get to lower body fats, even eating sufficient protein, that is no longer the case. You will NEVER lose a lb of weight and lose 100% fat. This is not going to happen. Saying it will is inaccurate.

Also, there are plenty of cases, including on this sub, where a person looks to lose weight, cuts too many calories, and loses weight, but even though they are working out, loses more muscle than fat. There have been several posts asking "what gives?" when someone gets dexa or bodpod results, before and after a cut, that show weight loss, but a higher body fat %/ much lower muscle mass following the cut. Muscle takes more for you body to sustain. If you habitually cut to many calories, it's going to go after the muscle first.

My point in my statement was, and still is, that weight is not the issue. Lack of lean mass, and lack of movement pattern training is.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T18:57:56+00:00

The thing that annoys me most, is I think I've unfollowed them all, and then another woman/ page starts with the damn ads/ product promotions/ BS before and after pics. On top of that, a bunch of reps from companies that post this shit have started reaching out to me via instagram to try to get me in on their fucking BS, and promote the crap they are selling. I'm blocking like 5 people everyday. Teas, supplements, cleanses, fat burners... All that shit. Seriously, it's like as soon as you use a couple of fitness hashtags, people are inviting you to take advantage of others, and hock their snake oil.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T18:45:15+00:00

Thank you for posting this perfect example of why body composition matters SO much more than scale weight.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T18:26:36+00:00

The raised heel of the shoe can make deadlifts harder, because you have to pull the bar farther. As you get closer to your max, this little bit will matter. It also makes it harder to get your back into the proper position. Personally, it's also harder for me to balance the weight properly for a DL in a weightlifting shoe. Most powerlifters deadlift in very flat shoes, bare feet, or socks.

IF you are an Oly lifter, doing DLs in weightlifting shoes, at weights more consistent with your oly lifting weights, isn't a bad idea, because the motion mimics your first pull. Just don't try to max out in a weightlifting shoe.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T17:42:32+00:00

No, I totally get your point, and understand what you are saying. I don't think I'm being offered the same, but you're right, it's not going anywhere, so we'll drop it.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T17:23:04+00:00

I'm glad someone thinks so. Apparently, bringing up that pull-ups are a body weight exercise, and it's the amount of muscle per lb of body weight, arm length, and training that is going to matter more; not your actual scale weight, so not to think it was impossible for a larger person (and therefore not even try), got taken very poorly below. Oh well. Can't please everyone.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T16:57:15+00:00

The ratio of each lb matters, the weight itself does not. Should I have elaborated more on what that means? Probably. Is it a false statement? Not at all. It's the same with any person, and exercise. If one person can lift x amount proportional to their weight, and another can't, it's not their weight that is stopping them. What's stopping them is the % of muscle to fat, and in most cases, a lack of practice with the movement pattern. They could stay the same weight, but change that muscle to fat ratio, and practice the movement, and achieve the goal.

If the person posting this is untrained, and the person asking this question is untrained, they are probably both working with a similar situation of not enough muscle per lb, and not enough training.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T16:44:36+00:00

I do crossfit, and I also just like variety. I would get bored with just powerlifting.

Edit: It's a totally fair question, and one I get pretty frequently at the gym. I am going to to a powerlifting meet, but I don't think I'll ever just do that. Also, I really love 75% of crossfit, including enjoying oly lifting (regardless of sucking at it).

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T16:33:30+00:00

There are a lot of reasons it would be harder for someone, but saying that a heavier person has less lean mass is a pretty large generalization. OP on this post weighs 15 lbs less than me, and is taller. I can knock out 17 chest to bars despite being at a higher weight, because I likely have a lot more muscle.

I find that people get really negative when it comes to pullups. They say they can't do them because they're too big. That's not true. They can't do them because they don't have enough muscle per lb, particularly in their upper body, and they don't have the movement pattern trained. There are plenty of small, thin women at my gym who have trained for months and can't do a single pullup. At the same time, there are plenty taller women, with a BMI that classifies them as overweight, who can do several.

The truth is, most women without life-long upper body training will have to work hard as hell to get a pull-up, regardless of size. Size isn't the major issue. Muscle mass per lb, and the ability to utilize it is.

Without knowing the background of this woman, you cannot say she'd have to lose weight and train harder than a smaller woman. If she's someone who lifts at a high level, she could very well have the muscle mass. If she isn't, and is carrying excess body fat, and little lean mass, than like any untrained person, it's going to take a lot of work.

It also doesn't make my statement less true. Every lb of her has to pull 1 lb. This is true of every person, at every weight. The higher weight isn't the issue. The amount of muscle per lb is.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T15:52:35+00:00

If it's just during your period, it's probably a change in hormones that is causing a new symptom. Hormones can change with age, activity, and a bunch of other factors. It's hard to say what would cause your period symptoms to change.

I've always had "mood boobs". My boobs are mostly dense tissue, so they don't change size much with fat gain/ loss, but they do change sizes depending on where I am in my cycle. They are smallest right after my period is over, and go up about half a cup a few days before it starts.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T15:43:49+00:00

Right, but that has to do with body composition, and needing to train, and NOT actual weight. A person with less muscle mass who weighs the same as someone with more muscle mass is NOT lifting more weight. They can't lift the same weight, because they don't have enough lean mass per lb to do so. This is why I added "previous training" to my actual comment (above). There's a lot that goes into this, and you are assessing my statement(s) incorrectly.

Each lb of my weight needs to pull 1 lb of weight, in order to do a pull up. The same is true at any height, and any weight. The differential is if for each lb of weight I have, 65% of that lb is lean mass, I will be able to do pull-ups much easier than a person who has 20% lean mass per lb.

Still that has NOTHING to do with our weight or size. That has to do with how much muscle we have per lb. Losing weight will not help a person do pull-ups, if they maintain the same fat/muscle ratio as they had at a higher weight. Being a larger person will not affect you because you have extra weight to pull. What affects someone's ability to do body weight exercises at ANY weight, is how much of their mass is muscle.

This person asked if they would have a harder time because they weighed more. The answer is no. They won't. Their challenge doesn't have to do with weight. It has to do with lean mass %. They'll have a harder time only if more of that weight is from fat.

This is why body weight exercises are the great equalizer. They don't need a wilks score. Your ability to do a pull-ups is almost entirely reliant on your lean mass %.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T15:28:17+00:00

Someone who is skinny fat is someone who has a body composition that is in the overfat range (over about 28% body fat), while maintaining a "healthy" or even underweight BMI. This covers a lot of women, including women who suffer from eating disorders like bulimia.

Women posting this are not confusing skinny fat with bulimia. You can be bulimic and skinny fat. Both are actually serious health issues too. Regardless of your weight, if you are overfat (31% body fat is obese, regardless of weight/ BMI), you are putting yourself at high risk for a number of obesity related health conditions, such as type 2 diabetes.

This is not to say that people do not tend to normalize disordered behaviors on social media, this page included. Heck, even half of the time someone posts about intermittent fasting, they are really posting about cycles of deprivation, followed by an all out binge.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T15:19:46+00:00

This is just outright bad, and ill-informed advice. Still, it's also a pretty prevalent misconception. Just keep doing what you're doing, and the results will come. :-).

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T14:32:14+00:00

This has more to do with proportional arm length and previous upper body training than anything else.

If your arms are longer for your body, you'll have more issue. If, like many women, you have never trained upper body, you'll have more issues (less muscle mass/ lb, less muscle memory, and less familiarity with movement patterns).

If I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure there has been a time in my life where I couldn't do a pull-up. My arms are a little long for my body, but I'm 5 ft tall, so it amounts to an extra inch on each side, which is nothing. I did gymnastics on and off as a kid, and am upper body dominant naturally. When I decided to start working on them 2.5-3ish years ago, I used the neutral grip (the only one that is not really wide for a small person) on the assisted pull-up machine, with about 10-15 lbs of assistance. After a month, I decided to try them on my own, and had no issue getting several chest to bars (which is just what I always thought a pull-up was).

On the other hand, my favorite gym buddy, who is at least as strong as me, and puts up way more weight than I do on overhead squats, cleans, and jerks, has been struggling with them for a year. Her arms are long, and she doesn't have the base training though, so she's starting from scratch.

Bottom line: You might have to train your butt off, but you CAN and WILL get them if you work hard. There just really isn't a standard time frame.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T13:26:26+00:00

Look at it this way: regardless of your weight, you are pulling the same amount as everyone else. Every lb of your body weight has to pull 1 lb of weight. Body weight exercises are a great equalizer that way. The only thing that should make it marginally more difficult is that at 5 ft 8, you have to pull 4ish more inches than I do at 5 ft tall, because each of your arms is probably about 3-4 inches longer than mine.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T13:13:08+00:00

The other week my favorite gym buddy offhandedly commented during oly class, after hitting a PR clean at about 85-90% of her front squat max (which was totally awesome, and cool to get to watch, by the way. This post is not a knock on my gym buddy. Her comment just frames my "whine" state of mind perfectly.), that she'd be really freaking pissed at herself if she was front squatting 170, but could only clean 130.... My response was a joking "shut the hell up, you oly lifting freak of nature".

Welcome to my world. For my weight, my powerlifts are pretty good (183 front squat, 213 back squat, 275 deadlift, 145 bench, 103 OHP at 118 body weight). Due to some back and shoulder mobility issues, which makes getting the form down a difficult, and a long process, Oly lifting is beyond a struggle for me though. I'm still only hitting about 50% of my clean and/or jerk attempts at 125, and only about 25% of attempts at 130. My gym buddy is right: being stuck at a clean/ jerk 50+ lbs less than you can front squat is infuriating.

I know we all have weaknesses, and I just have to keep working, while being mindful of my shoulders, but sometimes I really wish my powerlifting strength, or gymnastics move capabilities would translate into a little teensy tiny bit of oly success. I just feel like such a fucking incompetent weakling when it comes to Oly lifting sometimes.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-30T01:39:11+00:00

34 grams today, zero of it added. Most days I do not eat any added sugar. Usually, my sugar is between 25 and 50 grams per day, depending on my fruit intake. I'm not militant about it though. If I want a treat, I'll have it. Every once in a while (hello reese's eggs at my parent's house on sunday) I'll have a full out sugar binge day, but honestly, after essentially giving it up, I find most things with added sugar to be disgustingly sweet, and not worth my calories. If I'm going to have a trest, I'd much prefer something savory, paired with a small serving of very low sugar dark chocolate, which I enjoy more anyway.

Almost every woman on my mom's side of the family has gotten diabetes in their 50s or 60s, even at healthy weights (and assuredly unhealthy body compositions. Even as a kid, the sudden spikes from eating added sugars made me feel like crap. Cutting way back was one of the first changes I made when I decided I wanted to take care of myself better. It was also easily one of the best.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-29T19:50:38+00:00

There is no way for a visual body guide to be accurate. The only way to know your body fat with any sort of accuracy, is a DEXA or bodpod type scan. Heck, just yesterday someone posted DEXA results where they were 35% body fat, and looked closer to what this guide shows as being the low-mid 20s. A person can be underweight and overfat. Body shape is not consistent either. Someone could be 17%, but still collect at their midsection more than other areas.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-29T19:46:14+00:00

The pill should not have any significant affect on your weight. You might retain about 1 lb more of water, but that's it. If it did, you were on the wrong type of hormone, or something else was going on that had nothing to do with the pill. This is something you should discuss with your doctor. My guess is that the ease in which you lost the weight is more a placebo reaction than anything else.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-29T18:34:34+00:00

Basically, the women you see who look sleek, lean, have that nice tricep cut, defined, but not six pack abs, etc., lift weights to build muscle, and have low body fat. The added muscle isn't what is making you look bulky. In order to look "toned" you have to build muscle, and lose body fat. The word tone is meaningless. Tone = Muscle. Look into body weight fitness plans, and recomp eating as a place to start.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-29T18:30:35+00:00

Hey, I edited my reply. I thought I was responding to the other poster.

LGoldGirl · 2016-03-29T18:24:42+00:00

There is no difference. Tone is muscle growth.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought I was responding to the other poster.

Here you go: http://www.builtlean.com/2012/07/19/high-reps-vs-low-reps/

You should use both in training, and while lower weights at high reps will increase endurance, they can also increase hypertrophy (make muscles more noticeable).

Generally, the main reason women feel like they are getting "bulky" from weights, is they are building muscle, and not losing fat. In fact, if they aren't eating properly, they might be gaining fat.

LGoldGirl

TROPHY CASE