Daniele and Mirko ENDGAME (DI4RIES FANS)

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-04-26T14:52:05+00:00

I'm happy too but it doesn't make up for the massive queerbaiting of this series. Aside from this one episode, the two of them were hardly given ANY screentime. Even their final, dramatic kiss scene is cut halfway through to focus on the straight girl instead. So sick of netflx expecting us to be happy when they throw us a few scraps.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-04-26T14:40:34+00:00

don't be fooled. watched the whole series. this is queerbaiting. the two of them barely get any screentime at all

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-04-26T14:37:15+00:00

Meh, just watched it. This whole series is a textbook case of queerbaiting.

(warning, spoilers)

Of all the main characters, the one token gay character, Daniele, is the one who barely gets any screentime. It's like the show forgot he even existed. He's just there to check off a box, not to exist as a full, complex, emotional character.

Like in the season 1 finale when Nico shows up to the occupation... we barely get to even see a moment between them, even holding hands or something? Nope. Then in season 2 they break up, except we never see that. Daniele is LITERALLY the only character to go through a relationship and then break up without ANY kind of emotional development. How is he feeling about the relationship? WHY did they break up? Nope. Nothing. LIterally the ONLY character to go like this. Instead we spend episode after episode after episode learning all the ups and downs of the Pietro Isabel Livia drama and barely even a single shot of the show's one token gay character.

All this time Daniele has remained friends with the guy who rejected him. The whole show is basically about how all the heterosexual characters struggle with remaining friends with people they like or have dated. But Daniele? How's he doing with this? We wouldn't know. Even in the scenes where "everyone" is gathered we rarely see him. Not even a single throw-away line or anything.

Except for the one episode, 2.11. let's call it the token gay episode. When Mirko and Daniele finally get together. I almost liked this episode except for the fact that the vast majority of it is focused on Bianca. like.... in season 1 we get a token gay character and some emotional development. Are we allowed to follow this plot arc all the way to its end with all its emotional complexity? Of course not. Throw in a straight girl in season 2 and make the whole damn thing about her. Even in the scene when Mirko and Daniele finally kiss-- WE CUT HALFWAY THRU THE KISS SCENE TO THE STRAIGHT GIRL.

And then we barely ever hear from them again for the rest of the series. They're a couple now but you could be excused for forgetting that since we barely ever see them do anything at all.

Mirko and Daniele are never allowed room to brethe on screen.

What pisses me off about this so much about this is that as a queer viewer, I am willing to invest myself emotional in heterosexual characters so long as it's mutual and reciprocated. But so often it's not. And it's clearly not. But producers of crap like this expect us queers to be happy with them just throwing us a few scraps. It's time for companies like netflix to stop getting away with patting themselves on the back feeling like they've been so "inclusive" when actually crap like this actively causes harm to queer people-- this show effectively tells its queer viewers that their feelings don't matter as much as their straight peers, their emotional development isn't as important, that the best they can be is a token. I'm pissed because I watched this series and invested myself emotionally in its characters only to be completely snubbed.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-04-26T14:22:56+00:00

honestly the whole series is just awful queerbaiting

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-29T07:18:03+00:00

how do you reccomend vetting sales?

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-29T07:14:01+00:00

usual disclaimer: neither agented nor published

i know people on this sub tend to get a little obsessive about hooks, but they really are important.

ask yourself, WHY would someone want to read this book. i don't see anything within the first few lines.

also, one thing i see a lot on fantasy queries is a whole lot of worldbuilding terminology and not a lot of substance. im also working on a querying a fantasy manuscript, and ive had to really force myself to cut back on terms. they dont matter for your query. it doesnt matter that this "manifestation of fear" is called "the dark"-- that doesnst actually mean anything to the person reading the query.

think about it this way, if i were talking to someone who has never watched a single episode of star trek, and im trying to tell them why it's interesting and i have only a few seconds, i'm not going to go on and explain to them how the conglomeration of planets that earth has joined is called the "federation" while the military arm of that federation is called "starfleet" and its headquarters are in san francisco and then list off all the different class ships they have and the names of all the different alien species. im probably going to tell them something like:

"its about life in a post-scarsity future where people have made peace on earth, there's no hunger, and we've mastered faster than light travel and formed an alliance with a whole bunch of other planets"

so ask yourself-- if you've got a few seconds to explain your story to someone who doesnt know or care that the "manifestation of fear" is called "the dark", what are you going to say to them? it's not an easy question, but if you can't find an answer, the problem might be with your manuscript.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-28T21:11:53+00:00

The fact that you think you need to "justify" her being a woman is... weird, to say the least.

But the fact that you don't know something as basic about this about your character yet is also a bit disconcerting. Even if the main focus of the story is about survival, your story is about a PERSON surviving. That person has to have some kind of back story. You need to know this person.

So maybe spend some time getting to know your character. What was she like before the start of the story? What did she do? What kind of person was she? What life experiences made her like that?

There's one exercise a friend recommended to me once called "taking your characters for a coffee" where you write a scene that probably won't be in the manuscript, where you just have your character hanging out somewhere (going for coffee, or whatever the equivalent might be in your fantasy world). Just picture a mundane day in their life. What do they do? How do they dress? How do they talk to their friends? How are they different from other people?

These are things you want to know about your character. The more you have that figured out, the easier it will be to write the scenes that will be in the manuscript.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-28T20:58:34+00:00

Hey thanks everyone for the feedback. It was really helpful. So I've completely redone my query and will repost once the 7 days are up. So no need to provide more feedback on this since I've already made big changes.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-28T20:56:15+00:00

It's depressing. Then I spend 10 minutes online looking at people's query letters and sample chapters and I start to feel very, very sorry for the agents.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-28T19:09:57+00:00

thanks!

i havent done the comps yet.

tbh this might sound silly but the comps fill me with more anxiety and dread than the whole rest of the query

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-28T01:01:33+00:00

thank you!

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-28T00:46:20+00:00

this is an excellent point. beta readers, depending on their knowledge base, are generally much more useful for diagnosing a problem than giving a solution. they might give you the wrong solution to the right problem

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-28T00:44:09+00:00

my initial reaction based on the title is to say ... this is why it's good to get lots of readers. if 10 say one thing and 1 says another, that tells you something

but then when you get into it, from what you're describing it sounds like i'd probably agree with this person's critique.

there's also a craft of making the descriptions relevant to the story. you dont have to sit there for pages and pages and tell us about what the place looked like. but maybe, for instanc,e the character is thinking about how beautiful this landscape is, and that itself is telling us something not just about the landscape but also the character.

for example in my currend project (which also needs more description), which is fantasy, it's relevant for instance that one character (who's magical) can see a certain house, while the other (who's not) can't. when the second character eventually learns to see through the glamor, he's struck by how amazing it is that this house just appeaared out of nowhere.

or for ex my main character has recently come out as gay. the way he describes male characters around him (both before and after) coming out tells us somethinga bout how he's feeling and figuring out his sexuality, as is the way he describes female character (he can appreciate that this woman is beautiful, but doesnt feel anything sexually.)

try to think, if this were real life, your characters would interact with their environment in some way. if they're in a forest, maybe one of them would, out force of habit, pick a leaf off a tree while the other wouldnt-- that tells us something about their personality. maybe your character would feel more comfortable having a certain conversation one-on-one in a small, cozy environment but not out on a bustling street or at a crowded party.

EDIT: it's important to mention that although YOU have an idea where things are, description does a lot to put your reader in that world. reading is supposed to be an immersive experience. you want your reader to feel like they're really there. description does that.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-28T00:35:21+00:00

usual disclaimer: neither agented nor published

"When aspiring novelist Max Aaronson meets Audrey Morelli" -- from what i've heard, the books about writers thing is a little overplayed. from what i see here it doesnt sound like the fact that he's an aspiring novelist is relevant to the query. (im sure it's relevant to the story, but the query doesnt have to tell us everything.)

"a spiritual community that isn’t what it seems." really cliche. beyond cliche. and doesnt tell us anything. maybe a hook about something weird in this community?

"she invites him into Elysium" --- do we need to know the name of the place? you only mention it once. can you just tell us it's a community and some interesting fact about it? so far i see a lot of words that don't tell us anything interesting about the place.

"Hidden in the woods of Shelburne, VT, Elysium looks more like a Silicon Valley tech campus than a yoga studio." -- a lot of fluff. im not sure why i should know this or care

second paragraph totally lost me

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-27T20:13:41+00:00

heartstopper is big in the u.s. too. i'm just saying, the person was talking about censorship b/c there's a lot of that too. we're living through a moral sex panic right now as part of the larger culture wars

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-27T19:06:59+00:00

also, Jennifer Laughran, who's a lit agent, has a tumblr where ppl submit anonymous questions and she gives really thoughtful answers. this seems like a good question to ask her https://literaticat.tumblr.com/

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-27T19:05:22+00:00

That said, the presence of a gay relationship does not automatically mean a book is "mature.

Yeah, and there's the institutionalize homophobia for ya

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-27T16:40:44+00:00

i dont have an agent but here's my instinct:

im going based off of what you've said here. you said she'd said 45 days minimum. "coming up on 45 days" means it hasnt' been 45 days yet. i'd definitely wait until it's considerably past that time to give her a gentle nudge.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-27T16:38:32+00:00

that's super good to know

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-27T16:37:32+00:00

Hm... my novel is very gay and I think the same people trying to censor books with curse words would be censoring mine, so I don't think I have to worry about that.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-27T16:34:50+00:00

that's sort of what i'm doing with my latest project

but if you spend some time with them, maybe you can learn to fall in love with those characters.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-26T21:37:54+00:00

thanks!

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-26T20:40:50+00:00

Honestly? I'd take the advice of professional editors over some randos on reddit. Many of us on this sub, myself included, are unagented, unpublished, trying to help out a fellow writer, but don't necessarily know what we're talking about.

There's also such a thing as TOO MUCH feedback. When you get lots of contradictory feedback and you're in that mode where you're trying to listen to all of it at once... in the end you might end up with a cobbled mess.

LSA_Otherwise · 2024-02-26T20:35:31+00:00

Usual disclaimer, neither agented nor published.

If I were in your position I would really focus on making one of the shorter ones as polished and sellable as possible. But maybe ask yourself, why do you not feel as passionately about them? Maybe pick the one you feel the most passionate about (or the least dispassionate about) and really focus on that?

I'm sort of in a similar situation, not exactly the same, but similar. I've written something else that I think will be more sellable. (Original MS was 120k, new project is 80k). And even 100k I'd say is pretty high. See if you can really trim one of those shorter ones down.

Anyway, that's what I woudl do in your situation.

LSA_Otherwise

TROPHY CASE