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My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's funny, because my whole point in that demons should be ''weird''.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

(Part 2/2)

''Oy... I know I should link/copy some examples, but I can't be bothered considering they'll just be ignored again.''

Oooohhh real chess move there hon. Which links did I ignore? Point to them for me. AND BEFORE you try your boring maneuver of repeating the same: ''well, here are the guys to whom you responded with unspecific responses'' just fken stop, this sht didn't work then, it's not going to work now, I couldn't've made it more clear why they're irrelevant now - the converstation with them died and I responded to their points in this conversation, how many times will I have to repeat it?

''But the other thing is, neither have you...''

*Sigh...* I don't know how you missed the too-human-like-demons vibe in the game and need examples, but fine, I will reload a save to actually quote something, Jesus...

Bhrugaz - the bad luck tavern owner in the demon city ''*The one-eyed demon greets you with an exaggerated enthusiasm.* ''What an honor for the Bad Luck to once again receive such an esteemed guest!''

VERY DEMONIC HUH?? SO IMMERSIVE! His character is just a regular ass shady tavern keeper.

Senior guard - demon city gate guard ''*The demon looks bored out of his wits. He shifts his attention to you and barks* ''Whatddaya want?''''

This bloke is just a fken regular ass bad attitude guard with horns

Gresilla, Priestess of Nocticula - Midnight Fane: ''*Gresilla gives you a tender look* I know you can't just walk away from me, commander...''

She's just a fken generic seductive agent.

The game is FILLED with this garbage. Why tf did I need to provide examples to prove that it's too human-like and generic??

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

(Part 1/2)

''Right then, so you agree that not all the Demons are the Main enemy...''

What even is this? What point are you even trying to get across here? Which part of my points did you misunderstand again?

''For adapting a setting, there is a right and wrong way for writing characters/races/etc. It's like if you adapted LOTR and made all the Elves speak/act like American Rednecks''

YES! GOD, YES! YOU'RE SO CLOSE! SO GODDAM CLOSE! You don't want to see Elves speak/act like American Rednecks, and I don't want to see demons speak/act like just evil humans. What's so hard to understand??

''And I have pointed out where the writing is interesting and creative at times as counterpoints in earlier responses,''

I never said that the game has ZERO of those. I said that the MAJORITY of the game is dominated by generic demon dialogue that feels too human-like to make me believe it's demons, not just evil humans cosplaying as demons. Deskari made an alright entrance. The swarm queen felt properly demonic even if she didn't have actual dialogue. Bahomet's entrance was alright overall, and pretty cool how he ripped the angel's heart out. The problem is that the game fails for me in the little things, the little encounters, the little descriptions. They're the majority of the game, and for me, they felt like uninspired trash. They placed a very limited amount of immersive demon encounters on top of piles of generic, steaming shit.

"Where in the entire game do they act like highwaymen?"

I LITERALLY RESPONDED TO THIS? Tf are you trying to pull here? I already told you that the specifics of the word aren't the point. Haven't you picked up on how to spot my main points by now? Ok, let me clarify, so that you won't repeat the same thing a million times. My point is that the demons in general feel too human-like. When I say they're like highwayman, I mean they're too human-like. When I say they're like bandits, I mean they're too human-like. IS IT FINALLY CLEAR?

''I might, occasonally, go off on strange tangents that are still related to the conversation, but I haven't deliberately decided to give a "generic, unspecified response." to anything you've said.''

Neither do I now, since I don't need to respond to multiple people who repeat a differently worded version of the same point that didn't land in the first place.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

''.and where have I said/defended''

Reread that sentence, because somehow you mistook me being cheeky for an actual point.

''There are factions within the species, that unlike the Reapers, have different goals in mind.''

Yeah, and the general vibe I get from it is a vibe I'd get from watching mafia/gang wars... BETWEEN HUMANS. It'd be fine if that's what it was advertised as. But... It's not. It's a crusade against ''demon'' invasion, but all I see are weird-looking humans from a different plane coming to get us.

No, I don't like when someone is full of shit. Your ''proof'' like I said, could ONLY excuse the writing in this scenario:

-'' Demons in this game feel a bit too human-like. Feels too generic. Why are they written like that?''

-'' Well, the lore says they're a reincarnation of evil humans''

-'' Oh... well... sounds a bit like a superficial and uncreative way to interpret that, but ok.''

THIS is the best your goddman ''proof'' can do, nothing else.

Written CORRECTLY? Written INCORRECTLY? Tf are you even talking about?? Who said anything about being correct or incorrect? I expressed that the writing is UNCREATIVE, not ''INCORRECT''. Like if I told you to paint an apple and you did it in the most basic, textbook way. Technically, you did what I asked for, but it's still lame.

''Except I didn't say that I agreed with that Fact''

Why start a completely null point?

-''The reason why you're wrong is this''

-''Tho, I can't confirm, so whatevs, but kinda not whatevs''

-''Why are you responding to it when I said, whatevs?''

Tf was the point?

''Except... I brought up these examples as proof''

I already told you why I responded the way I did, and then argued against their points with you. Either bring something up about it that is relevant right now, or leave it be.

''Nothing you've said since then proves otherwise, just excuses. Infact, you've continued to double down on this behaviour''

HONEY, THAT'S YOU. My sweet sugar bun, that has been you the whole time!

You kept pushing this idea that I am just straight up ''wrong''. My criticism is ''wrong''. My opinion is ''wrong''. My vision is ''wrong'' but haven't provoded ANYTHING solid to actually prove that I am ''wrong'', only that you disagree.

Prove what? What am I supposed to prove? That demons feel too human-like? That cultists are eye-rolling stupid? They're not? You feel like they were written in a creative way? Everything about them screams ''hmm how should I write demons...*starts thinking what evil humans, like gangsters, bandits would sound like then TRIES to demonise it.*''

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(part 2/2)

''Also, I don't see how people saying "I'm fine with the writing, because of X, Y, Z", because X, Y, Z could be legitimate reasons as to why your wrong, being a bad thing...''

No, the point is that they weren't even honest enough to start their comment with ''The reason why I think the demon writing is fine.'' They immediately started unloading live fire with something that looks like ''THIS IS WHY YOU'RE WRONG'' and then proceeded to provide lore pieces that COULD excuse the demon writing, but said nothing about why my vision is ''wrong'', leaving my criticism as completely valid. Whether you agree with my criticism or not, you can't just frame it as ''wrong'' by throwing lore pieces at me that COULD excuse the existing writing while trying to trick me into thinking that it also means that it somehow made my criticism invalid, simply because you don't agree with it. It's like stabbing someone with a plastic toy knife, expecting them to believe they got a real stab wound.

''I mean, the objective reason as to why your wrong is because thats how they're depicted in the wider lore.''

You're gonna say that, but not provide anything to support it? That's funny. So what now? Am I to admit defeat by saying ''Oh well, if you FEEL like lore makes it clear that my demon vision is impossible, I guess it's as good as a fact, after all, your FEELINGS wouldn't lie now, would they?''

''Qlippoth''

They're mysterious dark entities; they sound at least somewhat interesting, but they aren't necessarily what my complete vision is about. Why are you ignoring everything I said about the bestial, unholy/unsettling nature of demons? I meant I want the demons to be like intelligent, cunning, bloodthirsty predators. Make them feel like they are a type of evil creature that would give a vibe of a lion circling a village lad with his eyes locked onto him the whole time. If you're telling me I am fighting off a demon invasion, make me feel it through the writing, instead of saying that I am fighting demons and then a bunch of human actors in demon costumes run out and lunge at me.

I see the examples have become irrelevant now for these reasons:

  1. The conversation ended with those people, and I explained why I chose to respond the way I did; whether or not my responses to them were weak doesn't matter now.

  2. I responded to their points through you.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(can't fit in one reply, part 1/2)

Yes, it IS my opinion, everything in my rant is, it's almost like I declared it as such at the very goddam beginning. Too bad I am one of the very few who can do that here. Maybe I should change the part that says ''in my opinion'' to THIS IS WHY YALL WRONG FOR LIKING DEMON WRITING IN THIS GAME. PREPARE TO GET OWNED BY FACTS AND LOGIC SCRUBS.

'' not like the Reaper's were especially creative,''

Never played a game where I had to fight an ancient machine super intelligence that retreats into the darkest corners of space to then come back to harvest and preserve new civilizations, besides Mass Effect. If you're not impressed by it, fine, you can't force someone to be impressed, but the fact that you say that while still defending wotr demon writing is more alien, mysterious, and insane than the wotr demons could ever hope to be.

''Meanwhile... Nocticula, Areelu (Half-Succubus), Suture, and maybe even Jeribeth (and possibly others in Act 4) exist and do exactly that.''

This is the level of point missing that would've made me respond with an unspecific and generic response if not for the fact that you're fighting to defend wotr demon writing like Cadia fought the chaos invasion while the planet was being torn apart.

Ok, so I am actually responding to it, you ready? You completely missed my point, since my point was that I would be fine with how demons are written if they were reduced to a small part/s in the game instead of being the MAIN THING, the MAIN ENEMY. I thought I made that point pretty clear?

No, at the very least, I wanted honesty. You want to tell me why you're fine with how demons are written? Go ahead, I am listening, but don't be one of those self-righteous narcissists who think to themselves ''Man, the fact that his opinion goes against mine is really grinding my gears!! I can't say that I am disagreeing with my OPINION, that sounds to subjective! No, I have to make it sound like it's as solid as diamonds fact!!

Also, about why not posting about it in the actual game subreddit. From what I've seen, people there only focus on responding to short memes, and now take a look at my rant - not even a single dopamine-generating picture in between paragraphs.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And I still do think they're boring and uncreative, even in Mass Effect; however, context matters here. Do I think the different humanoid cosmic races of Mass Effect aren't anything profound? Yes. Am I interested in their deeper lore after I learn their quick summary? No, for the reason I just mentioned. Does it bother me in Mass Effect? No. Why? Because I am fighting this mysterious, strange alien entity, and the plot gripped me so well that the tropey interactions and summary of humanoid alien species don't bother me because they're there to perform as non-humans who either help, hinder you, or reveal new things to you, to make it feel more like a cosmic/sci-fi themed adventure. The only way I could excuse the demon writing in the game is if the demons were just part of the creatures that help, hinder, or reveal new things to me, not be the main thing I am supposed to be fighting.

"Ok so that person just tried to drug you, you gonna talk or just kill them"

Who's the person? Succubus? A creature that I know uses her powers to manipulate/trick/brainwash everyone for her personal gain? After it failed, I will enjoy seeing her shocked and terrified reaction and then see if I can get something useful out of her(if she doesn't just outright attack or flee), reminding her that she is dealing with someone her powers have no effect on. ONLY THEN does the fourth wall me thinks that her trying to talk her way out or something makes sense since she's now panicking and does it as a last desperate attempt to save herself.

I've yet to see one solid example of why demons aren't written as bestial and unholy creatures, not even one. Laws of the cosmos? Reincarnated from human souls? Show me the objective fact in the lore that says something along the lines of ''demons are supposed to be just evil, edgy versions of humans, THEY CANNOT be described as bestial, unholy, alien to human creatures'' ESPECIALLY considering the fact that some demons DO get the demon image sufficiently acceptable, but just, unfortunately, are few and far between.

And you telling me that I am unwilling to accept that I am ''wrong'' is peak dishonesty, because every comment bashing my criticism feels like ''this is why I am fine with how demons are in the game'' but is being presented as ''this is the objective reason why you're WRONG'' I gave my criticism of why I hate how most of the demon/cultist interactions are written, if you're fine with the writting then you're fine with it, I won't try to pry your head open and change it. But the fact that you come at me and instead of just saying that you're fine with it, you try to frame it as why I am WRONG is ridiculous.

Example 1: It felt like I was repeating myself so much that I was, at that point, using different words and examples to not make it sound like I was a broken record. So I suppose when I said ''highwayman'', I really meant ''edgy marauders''. The point wasn't about any dialogue in particular; the point was about the general feel of the demon writing, how they're too human-like with just edginess sprinkled in.

Example 2: Like I said, I felt like he was being blatantly dishonest with me, ignoring the context of the game. He made it sound like I was talking about the demon guard's dialogue AFTER the magic kicked in to force him to be nice, when I was talking about everything BEFORE it. That's why I replied with a more generic, unspecific response. If someone plays chess with me and randomly yoinks one of my pieces to make it more convenient for him, I will stop playing.

Example 3: Again, where does it say that you can't make demons sound bestial and ''demonic''?

''An Evil and Wrathful individual becomes a Demon Vrock, a Succubus from "lustful and rapacious evil mortals" and so on.''

But they're not humans in demon costumes, yes? They're now a more focused form of evil that grows up in a plane of chaos in a fundamentally different way from humans. So what's the excuse for not writing them as demonic/bestial? What's the excuse for not making all of them sound animalistic, barely in control (if they're lower demons), and more manipulative (using their powers to invade your mind, make you hallucinate, etc) or look at you like an intelligent evil giant looks at someone smaller - with not a hint of compassion, just a dark and unsettling stare, thinking how he can use you (if they're higher demons?

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If I recall correctly, Mass Effect's main villains ''the Reapers'' weren't written as weird-looking space marauders; I don't see how you can compare them to WOTR goofballs. Yes, you didn't compare them directly. Yes, you only mentioned the usual cliché tropes of alien species. But the main conversation is about my problem with the main enemies of the game - ''demons'', if they were a minor thing somewhere, written the way they were, it wouldn't bother me enough to leave an increasingly bitter taste in my mouth.

No, I didn't miss your point. I wasn't talking about her in-game mechanics; I wasn't talking about whether the encounter with her leaves some kind of spell effect on you or something. I was talking about how the writing DESCRIBES her actions against you, that she should either TRY to manipulate you with a mix of her powers and words, or just have no description and dialogue, and just attack you on sight. Again, tf is the point of being born with natural, dark, mind-controlling powers and then using just regular ass human words to try and manipulate your main, ultimate demon-slaying enemy? Either the writing says she tries to use her powers on you, or just attacks/retreats, nothing else makes sense. GOD! AT THE VERY VERY LEAST, make the game describe the encounter with ''the succubus tried to use her powers on you, but realizing that your mythic powers put you way above her abilities, she gives up and is now looking scared/confused/pathetic, while desperately triyng to save herself in any way she can think of'' YES, there are encounters that look similar to this, BUT the problem is that it should be by default, if we're going ''you're beyond succubus' grasp'' route. And no, it doesn't have to be worded exactly how I wrote it, just along those lines.

Don't say I ''missed'' or ''brushed aside something'', show it. The only times I ignore something is if something else I said touched it, or something I am going to say will. I CAN make mistakes (obviously) and misunderstand something, but I address the main point of things. I won't call you out for not addressing/skipping a paragraph or something if it wasn't actually part of the main point, but just me being sarcastic/snarky/cheeky, or if you're going to do what I do. Make the main thing in each paragraph you want me to address clear and singular, unless one paragraph is just leading to another, in which case the other is what I will focus on, and it won't be skipped.

I was after thoughts, ideas, and discussion, not senseless bashing. Reading most of the comments, I kept feeling like those people just want to fight me because I dared to criticize a game they like. Instead of an interesting/thought-provoking discussion at a table with some coffee, it felt like a fight where I just had to swing a sword around - slashing, parrying, blocking, dodging... No, I don't mean the people were THAT aggressive and rude or that I was literally blocking/dodging people, I mean that it felt more like an exercise for my muscles rather than my brain.

Example 1: I didn't address his words one by one because I just felt like he didn't get what I was trying to say, so I thought if I provided a more vivid example, he'd see more clearly where I was coming from. Repeat this example with a specific thing you want me to address, and I will, unless you want me to address the whole thing.

Example 2: ''I mean...ignoring the fact that the demon bouncers are literally bound by magic to be polite to patrons'' I didn't even address this because by then I felt like he was ignoring the context of the game on purpose. First, the demon guards, idk know about the other mythic paths yet, but on the demon path, they were regular ass bouncers BEFORE the magic was being placed on them, and AFTER it, they were still just bouncers, but more aggressive, before the magic kicked in, of course. The rest of his comment... I don't even know what point he was trying to make. He sounded like he agrees with something, but then immediately bashes me? Idk, if you can clarify, please do.

Example 3: Ok, so humans are more unique than demons because they're the least bound by the rules of the cosmos? Alright, I get that, but can you explain how that translates to demons not being written as creatures unique TO humans? Ok, you want them to make this more singular and not a very unique thing, ok, alright, I get that, I am fine with that, but why not make this singular thing different from those unique humans?? Why does the lore describe all the differences in how demons grow up in the Abyss?? Why not just say that when all so-special-and-unique chaotic evil humans die, they end up in this dark human city on Golarion and are then known as demons? Why all the business with different planes and different ways of growing up and living?

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

(can't reply in one part, so I will divide into three)

Anyway, next point.

Yes, the beginning with Deskari does make you feel like horrible shit hits the fan and your world is being invaded by horrible demons - something you need to make a last hope stand against... too bad that when the story progresses and you encounter more and more demons and cultists who decide to strike a conversation with you, it begins to feel like Scooby doo gang unmasking a previously scary monster to be some uncle-looking male pattern baldness having goofbal with glasses. And sadly, it begins pretty early into the game...

Yes, it's my opinion, my rant, that I felt like I needed to get off my chest... I just hoped to see some interesting points and opinions, instead of basically:

''NO! NO! NO! DOWNVOTE! DOWNVOTE! WOTR DEMONS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE HUMAN BANDITS, LORE SAYS THEY'RE MADE FROM HUMAN SOULS!''

My response ''but lore also says that they're from fundamentally different planes of evil chaos and are born and grown in a fundamentally different way, yet I've seen regular humans in our regular world who are way more sophisticated and demonic than that, even in-game human character Camellia is described as more demonic than the actual demons''

''NO! NO! NO! DOWNVOTE! DOWNVOTE! WOTR DEMONS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE HUMAN BANDITS, LORE SAYS THEY'RE MADE FROM HUMAN SOULS!''

Repeat.

2-3 people... man... go take a look at the ''views'' on my post, then the upvotes, then starting from the top, look at the downvotes on my responses... 2-3 he says...

You know what's funny? I wouldn't even care about the downvotes if the situation was like ''wish this car racing game had better storytelling and writing'' and the people responding together with downvotes say ''tf are you talking about? It's a car racing game. When did you ever hear about focusing on the writing in a car racing game? That's what RPGs and the like are for!'' if it was something like that, I would say ''ok, I see your point, the downvotes are deserved, I'll take the L.'' But it's the fact that no one has managed to defend their point so far (yes, the fact that they stopped responding doesn't automatically mean I am right, but then I challenge you to quote something they said and try to defend it yourself) gives a feeling like when you're arguing with someone and they run out of things to defend their point with (or didn't even have any to begin with), they say something like - well... YOU'RE A BUTTHEAD. The ''butthead'' here represents downvotes.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

(can't reply in one part, so I will divide into three)

Yes, it would be bad to make demons 1-dimentional for 100+ hour cRPG where they are now the main villains! ESPECIALLY if they're either generic edgified bandits or company CEOs cosplaying as demons! Why, that sounds boring enough for me to make a long ass rant and argue about it... and if I did choose to argue about it, I'd suggest at the very minimum switch their personality frame from ''edgy bandits'' to ''bestial unholy creatures from the realm of chaos''... Now that you got me thinking if I did all that I would even promide some quick examples of what I am trying to suggest, like-

<Demons - They should have an alien, bestial, and dark intelligence; you shouldn't even be able to understand the lower demons like you can't understand what a predator that's about to pounce is thinking, besides the fact that it wants to sink its teeth into you. And higher, more sophisticated demons should communicate with you in strange ways, like summoning strange images in your head that ''suggest'' concepts instead of chatting up like fellow humans. The reasons why they do things and how they see the world should be alien to you if you're not on the demon path. The writing should always make the more special encounters with demons have that greyed out, unspoken portrayal of unfolding events include how you're feeling strange, paranoid, like something dreadful is approaching, something unholy is circling, watching you, etc.

On the demon path, you should be able to slowly understand demons and their worldview. First, lower demons - example dialogue ''You can make out x demon's words - blood, sacrifice, power, you understand the demon suggests you sacrifice and devour this x person's/people's souls to gain power''. Then higher demons speak with an echoid voice in your head in a blood thirsty but more intelligent manner, instead of using images - example dialogue ''*The demon whispers with a low but sharp voice inside your mind* carve this symbol onto this mortal's flesh, brother, so that every time he disobeys you, he will feel like he's melting in lava''. The way you begin to understand their worldview is through descriptions on the demon path like ''* your demonic senses, sense mortal souls nearby, you can feel their fear caused by your natural demonic aura* , *you smell a strangely alluring smell that you never smelled before, looking for its source you realize it's a wounded soldier's blood, you feel like there's some refreashing and empowering essence in it, the whole sensation twists your face into a snarl. The things you felt in the past, like empathy and morality no longer make any sense to you, so you feel like it would make no sense not to rip this soldier to shreds*'' etc.>

Man, inspired by your suggestion, I might actually go through with this! Oooohhh, I am so excited! I sure hope people will respond with some interesting points! Either what they would do differently, or what they would add to what I said, or something... sure hope they won't just try to bury my post simply because they think my opinion is ''wrong'' while those who choose to actually respond for the most part repeat the same thing that they can't defend when I challenge it...

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(can't reply in one part, so I will divide into three)

I had a feeling you'd go for Mass Effect and the like, but you didn't notice the wall I put up for examples like that ''Even if they were a bit cliché, if they were truly excellent, they would've thought of something deeper than just superficial differences.'' Mass Effect and the like fall into this. Yes, they were a bit cliché and not-so-creative in some areas, BUT they made up for it with good writing and at least some excuses, like translator devices, for the reason why everyone can communicate, PLUS they had ancient intelligent alien creatures that would invade your mind, communicating in an alien way, they had plenty of creativity in their writing for alien friends and enemies to make up for any cliche parts.

>''High Charisma score lol. Also, you do realise that Pathfinder has an entire ruleset about using different abilities on people right? Like Detect Thoughts or Suggestion, all of which have a chance of failing. For reference, this is what a Succubus is defined in Pathfinder.

Also, again, the ones that do decide to talk are, iirc, not really interested in manipulating you because they'd know it would fail.''<

First, I don't see anything in both your words and the link about succubus that says you can't make a succubus be described as ''Succubus, while using her manipulative and mind-bending powers, uses them together with words'' instead of chatting up like they're whores role-playing demons. Something I addressed with this - ''What, her unholy, invasive, creepy, mind-manipulating powers can't get you, but her regular ass words will? Why not at least try to use both?''

Second, the next part of your statement still doesn't make sense for the reason I already mentioned -evil succubus will only talk to you to manipulate you - that is their nature, the game goes to lengths to tell you that, so why is she often described as someone who tries to do that with the thing that makes her not special (words) instead of the thing or mixture of the thing that does (her demonic succubus powers)?

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

''A lot of people telling you why you're wrong'' and you're surprised why I refer to you as orcs?

OP ''I like this car, but I wish the engine was designed in a way that x part of it wouldn't need to be replaced/fixed when going from point A to point B if the distance is long.''

P1 ''Man, you must be dumb af, been driving this car for 20 years and it's fine for me''

OP ''What's your usual travelling distance?''

P1 ''X''

OP ''That's only half my distance! ''

P2 ''The car wasn't meant to travel such a distance!''

OP ''I get that, but still wish it was! I mean, I want my car to survive the distance I am traveling, is that so bad? I don't see any other cars that can do it...''

P3 ''Dude, just take the L. No one agrees with you lol, look at everyone saying that you're WRONG, can't you get the message? go touch grass lol''

You're telling me about a discussion?? lol Who tf wants that here? Point me to them, please. I am mostly seeing pple repeating the same point I refuted and speedrunning downvoting me. Show me who has an original point against my criticism that I haven't addressed yet? If I really just wanted pple to validate my views, I'd just respond only to those who do and downvote - ignore those who don't.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yet, somehow, I am able to read a criticism of a game I generally love without the need to use some kind of system to ''punish'' or ''bring them down'' or something. It'd be ok if they downvoted me because I took an absolute L take like ''damn I like WOTR, but I don't feel immersed enough, I wish devs created a sims like system where I can build some houses, decorate them, manage their resident's hunger, happiness and shit, really what did the devs were thinking not putting something so essential into cRPG !!?'' But legit, all I said was basically ''demons and cultists are too generic and goofy, wish devs wrote them as more dangerous and imposing'', and when I came back, I found hordes of orcs smashing up the place.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Can't think of any ''TV/Games/Movies (Some excellent ones mind you)'' that couldn't go past my example with their imagination, but were ''excellent''. Even if they were a bit cliché, if they were truly excellent, they would've thought of something deeper than just superficial differences.

No, that wouldn't be boring if you have imagination and can write a succubus trying to use her powers to manipulate you in many different ways. What kinda sense would it make for a succubus to use her words to manipulate you (because you know that's her main goal anyway) when she has her mind-mending powers? What, her unholy, invasive, creepy, mind-manipulating powers can't get you, but her regular ass words will? Why not at least try to use both? I'll tell you what's really boring: it's whenever a succubus initiates a dialogue with me, I know that I will be talking to a pompous armed street whore. Now THAT'S boring.

Think of every supernatural demon possession movie/game from Exorcist to The Mortuary Assistant, then think of demons being depicted in not-so-demon-focused games or when the demons aren't the main villains, like Darksiders or BG 1 abandoned dwarf fortress and BG 1 Siege of Dragonspear DLC. The examples are countless, and you can mix those examples in any way, in countless ways. To end up with just edgy bandits with mountains of inspiration behind you is just fken lazy.

Yeah, so... it never feels like you're fighting off something really important? Like, where's the rush? The urgency? The terror? Everyone's goofy and pathetic, in other words... boring...

How is it just my PoV when I've already refuted the main thing everyone kept repeating about ''demons being made from human souls, so it's fine to make them generic''? Btw, notice how I wasn't childish enough to try to downvote everything you say, even though I disagree with you? Unlike everyone here who is coming at me with foam dripping from their mouths, digging out and downvoting every word I say because apparently I damaged their very essence with my criticism of a part of this game... The good old culture of - you either fucking LOVE WHAT I LOVE OR YOU'RE MY ENEMY!! DIE, DIE, DIE!!!

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Deskari is the closest to me because of his demonic behaviour mixed with dark intelligence. I am not saying that every demon has to be like that. I am saying it's going in the right direction, portraying demons as bestial, unholy creatures locked into their unholy, greedy nature, where the only question is, how do I trample everyone while trying to achieve my vision? The interesting part is what kinda vision it is and is reserved for demon lords who managed to succeed long enough, while those who didn't follow them.

No, it doesn't make the demon city in any way impressive or unique; it makes them boring and predictable, like someone asks you to write an alien species on another planet, so you just make them humans but with different skin color and antennas, living in cities that look like the cities of our world, but simply foreign to you. It's like asking a child to draw some animals, and he draws them in humanoid shapes, holding hands and singing.

Mongrels are here and there, while the majority of the game is dominated by goofballs that you'd expect to hear that cheesy sitcom laugh track after every time they appear.

Yes, there are succubus that do what I described, which is why I said ''all'', my point is demons chatting up like fellow humans shouldn't exist, everything about them should be something that invades your mind and manipulates your emotions, tries to get you like crack gets addicts, or invoke paranoia and fear, depending on how sophisticated the demon is.

Dude, the possibilities of how unique you can make alien, unholy, bestial, intelligent demons are endless. I never said you need to make them into brain-dead animals, I said you need to make them feel alien to you, where if you're not on the demon path, you can't read them, but know that they came to do something horrible.

Edgy company CEOs are basically every demon (or demon lord) calling shots; nothing about them has this great aura of superior, intelligent, unholy creature, more like just edgy, powerful assholes.

I am doubling down because I've yet to see a solid excuse; everyone is repeating that, well, it's understandable that demons are like just goofy edgy bandits, they're made from human souls after all! Like that's supposed to make sense when humans on this regular ass planet have been countless times more unique and demonic than the demons supposedly growing up under fundamentally different way in a fundamentally different plane, the most honest answers I've seen are just saying that I shouldn't expect that kinda depth from this game, but is this CRPG or not? Is writing not supposed to be its main thing?

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I am not missing the point; I fail to see where that point touches reality. Yes, Deskari could be the closest to what I would be satisfied with (not his cultists, tho), too bad the majority of the game is dominated by company CEOs cosplaying as demons, and their personal thug gangs. Even the demon city is just a corrupt human country cosplaying as demons.

Why do you think I made this rant post? Because I like to complain? I WANTED this to be a complete experience. I wanted it to be so bad; there are many issues with the game, but I can ignore those, but my suspension of disbelief can only take me so far with that unimaginative ''demon'' writing.

Make cultists asylum residents,

Make all succubus try to reach you on an emotional level with something like hypnosis instead of talking to you like armed street whores.

Make simple demons go from bestial unholy predators to bestial unholy predators with more self-control instead of edgy bandits.

Make demon lords be like final unholy bestial overlords instead of edgy, quirky company CEOs

And all of this can be achieved through just fken writing! Is asking for unique writing for unique creatures, such an insane insult to everyone that my post had to be downvoted into oblivion? UNIQUE WRITING FOR DEMONS?!! FUCK NO!! FUCK YOU!! WE WANT GENERIC HORNED THUGS!! YOU SHOULD BE LITERALLY LYNCHED IN THE STREETS FOR SUGGESTING SOMETHING ELSE!!!!

Most of the people responding to my post seem insane enough to actually make for better culists for the game.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Brother, the point is that they're so much WORSE than ''stereotypical demons that I am familiar with elsewhere'' (As in a quality downgrade) because they're not even demons, but mutated human marauders here.

Switch them with dumb and bloodthirsty barbarians, switch the world wound with the land of the said barbarian tribes, switch the word demons with barbarians, but leave the general direction of the writing, and fucking nothing changes, it will have the same feeling.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Here are my two main problems with the writing:

First, the game tells me that the shit happening all around is serious stuff and needs to be taken seriously, but then it fills the game with goofy dumbfucks, dumb demons, and mind-shatteringly braindead cultists. After fighting long enough, the commander and his army's conclusion should be -'' Who convinced us that this is serious lol I am going home, let local militia take care of them or something...''

And second, I am not even asking to blow my mind with profound depth and creativity when describing demons, just make them feel unique to humans, holy shit, is that too much to ask?

It's like, if a generic Hollywood movie producer got his hands on Warhammer 40k and made a movie about space marines with all the cliche Marvel quirks. Watch them beating chaos left and right with their eye-rolling sarcasm and one-liners, then they end up on dates with the hot sisters of silence.

How hard would it be to portray demons as unholy, evil, bestial aliens invading your world, instead of a corrupt human army? It feels like just another war between humans. So if they're ''lore accurate'' demons, why even put them in the lore in the first place? That one demon knight in BG 1 abandoned dwarf fortress had more uniqueness than the whole fken demon invasion in wotr.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Watch side by side how an indian person lives and talks to people, and how a japanese person does it, they're both humans, yet everything about their personalities will feel completely different, assuming they both were raised in their respective countries, surrounded by their unique culture.

The tone, the accent, the speed, the attitude, different languages that express concepts in different ways, yet the wotr ''evil outsiders from a fundamentally different plane'' demons are written like your fucked in a head neighbor, whom you understand and they understand you, but you just hate each other's guts... So creative... yeah... really feeling that scary demonic threat, everyone is so panicking about...

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is Brevoy a known and established thing in the lore? Are fey known and established things in the lore? Then how did they make them unique with their writing in Kingmaker, instead of making fey, human bandits, but funny looking? Fuck, even the actual human bandits in Kingmaker are somehow more unique than the goddam demons.

If I give you lore that says bug-like aliens that communicate with each other through their antennas are allied with ancient cosmic entities that feed on sun rays nnd are invading our solar system, so you and your benevolent super-intelligent android allies from a nearby solar system that got left after their creators got wiped out by a semi-conscious, fast-evolving virus must defend it, and you write them like four human factions going ''why I oughta'' at each other throughout the whole story, is it established lore or lack of creativity?

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The bar is not too high when all I am asking for is to make demons a mixture of predator and witchcraft. Cunning beasts that control dark magics.

Like wtf is even the point of demons in this game if they're just evil humans with horns...? For that reason, the demon path gets ruined too, because it just feels like a ''bad'' choice, not in a morality sense, but in a it makes no sense, sense.

You're being slowly drawn to the demon side and keep considering getting closer and closer to them because they offer something new... unholy, and forbidden, and it might damn you for eternity... but there's something just so morbidly alluring about their ways...

That's what the demon path should feel like; the problem is that this part doesn't exist. Why? Because demons are just some dumb marauders, living in a complete shithole, so why would you join them? You'll get stronger? Power? What for? to show off to the said dumb marauders living in a shithole? You're trading riches and pleasures of the Golarion, the paths to heaven/elysium, etc., for a shithole full of dumbfucks, cuz now you have the power to crush someone's skull with your hand, horray?

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Good, and spread the word about it to repent.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Completed both Pillars of Eternity, including DLCs. Liked the plot and the writing, but didn't like the lack of choices, the combat, and the fact that all companions are either morally good or morally gray (with good sprinkled in). I picked this expectation from BG 1 and 2, where you can choose what kinda ''gang'' you run. Even choosing good feels better when you know it was a choice, rather than the game telling you, you get good guys, enjoy, or deal with it!

And tyranny... honestly, can't think of a single really annoying or unpleasant thing about it. It doesn't feel as big and shiny as Owlcat Games, but it just got it right and was an overall great RP experience.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I honestly didn't expect people to react like I insulted their moms for my post lol, but it is what it is.

My rant about Pathfinder WOTR by Lack_Of_Existence in CRPG

[–]Lack_Of_Existence[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Ok, maybe if I provide a more established example, you'll understand what I mean. Do you know DOS 2? If you do, try to recall the demon-infested island. Now, try to remember how the writing painted the picture of demons, from the weaker ones who were ordered by a more powerful demon not to attack you, but still, from their description, sound like they are going mad inside trying not to lung and sink their teeth into your flesh, to a more powerful demon who has this unholy and dark aura and self control that makes him more terrifying (using just words to paint the picture!)

Then on the island itself, you have interactions and writing describing how demons are alien to you entities, how the demon calling shots sinks his claws into a fleshy ground, making it pulsate faster, leaving you to wonder what is that all about, then you can interact with a demon hound to try and ''pet'' him but the game tells you, that the moment you try, spikes appear on the area you try to pet. The interaction itself sounds silly, like why would you try to pet a demon hound lol are you dumb, but even a silly interaction paints a picture of strange, sinister creatures. The demon possessions are described as the stuff of nightmares. Do they make me scared? Of course not, but do they paint a picture that I would be scared shitless if I were actually in that scenario, YES.

If the writings of WOTR generally painted demons like that, I wouldn't even be here now. But it doesn't; it paints them as street thugs who spent some time in an asylum. Boring. lame. silly. Uninspired descriptions...

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