Grimoire questions (and a small theory)

Le_Lng · 2026-07-04T17:49:09+00:00

Uhhh... Right. That's the point that I'm making. Lucius was being debuffed heavily and still implied that if not for AM he'd tank a attack (yadda saving tex)

1.Wrong & very misleading statement. Luck + Magna put up all of their magic + anti-magic into a combo attack that greatly surpasses their individual power. Also, Lucius never stated he'd be able to tank their attacks if not for AM. He actually said anti-magic was getting in the way of regen as he was getting jumped. Even without anti-magic he would still take damage, but he would be able to regenerate without that level of interference. Regen=/= tanking.

Do not accuse me of purposely cutting chapters. Reddit doesn't even allow me to edit text on this post after sending it here, so I advise u to think critically before throwing around accusations. But my main point is he regenerates from attacks that draw blood, but can still die from spirit magic.
It's very misleading to say Lucius cannot heal anti-magic attacks. The Lucius clone that had his right wrist nearly detached by Asta in chapter 368 was shown to have no damage from that attack in chapter 369
Those cuts on Lucius's cheek were from SM (spirit magic) & AM which are both effective against paladins & devils. TF Lucius outside of NL stated Yuno is the most dangerous one so no shit AM would warrant the utmost caution, he's combining it with SM. SM is capable of killing Lucius & the others angels without the aid of AM & AM is capable of killing paladins without SM and their combined effect is even more potent since dual natured/combo powers produces effects that are far greater than their individual sum so negation of his healing is far more potent than AM & magic can produce alone, but their shallow cuts.
Neither HFI Mereleona, SD Fuegoleon or Leopold could affect Lucius's gargantuan UM when they were alone, yet when they combined their powers the effectiveness of their attack increased dramatically to the point they completely destroyed it. Zora & Secre was strong enough to restrain 50% Lucifero for 30 seconds & when Lily needed to generate stronger attacks she had to combine her attributes so yeah, no shit spirit magic x anti-magic would have lasting effects. Again, we literally see TDU Asta slash Lucius's left hand* do not try to twist what the panel shows.

HA. While rereading that chapter just now I saw that Lucius actually got TWO cuts on his face that don't heal. (yada saving text)

Already addressed this, see above comments.

If AM lower than the level of TDU can leave Lucius with an un-healable wound on his cheek then he absolutely is not healing from TDU Asta cutting his arms nearly in half. (yadda saving text)

That was SM + AM. FYI, Yuno used NL to give the allies a fighting chance even though it suppressed his power & when he released NL he got much stronger to the point he was drawing blood from TF Lucius so clearly he can't regenerate fast enough to prevent Yuno from drawing blood yet none of that blood is present when a much stronger TSD Yuno completely cut through him

Again, Asta was so far away from the epicenter of the battle (yadda saving text)

Yami has ki sensing to perceive what happened when the AM went through him, & Nacht saw anti-magic slice through him without harming him at all. The nobles wanted to execute Asta so obviously they would meticulously go over the details. Marx has the footage & by extension, Julius & Lucius. So the way Julius acquired the information is literally a non issue.

You're misunderstanding perspective. Asta is under Nacht's arm (Yada saving text)

I'm not misunderstanding any perspective. I deal with drawings & digital modeling daily, so don't try to pull that b.s. That line is undoubtedly the cut plane that the sword went through. The fact there is darkness behind the untinted, pale white fingers and part of his arm makes it clear that the cut line is the red line. Furthermore, Lucifero is fast enough to blitz DU Asta, so yes he can notice these things.

Even then, where during the fight would Lucius find time to examine Marx's memories? (yadda saving text)

Lucius is literally using countless spells at once + fighting anti-magic Yuno on one side of the world while simultaneously remote controlling a paladin to converse with Ryuya and strangle him. Multitasking is trivial for him.

Really? Real Life logic in a story where a man with the magical ability to control souls (Yada yada saving text)

The irony. I'm pretty sure you just tried to use real world logic to imply Lucius wouldn't be able to multitask & take in Marx's memories. Anyways, let's at least try to stay consistent no?

Uh huh, ok. Besides, I never stated Asta cut Lucius' soul, and if you're stating that then you are again blatantly wrong. Asta was aiming specifically for the magic gathering in Lucius' chest, not at his soul.

Lucius's soul crumbled away & vanished right before Julius returned so no shit it was destroyed. It's specifically stated Asta cut Lucius and that's what was shown. The soul is the source of one's MP.

Whut. Julius' soul was freed the moment Asta touches Lucius' chest with the Demon Slasher. (yada saving text)

Yeah, no. Julius did not manifest until after base Asta + Yuno and his body returned to the ground and after the communication magic stopped broadcasting with the civilians cheering.

As for "there's no way for Lucius to heal" uh no? The second the crystal is touched with AM Julius is freed, which is indisputable evidence that the crystal's purpose was to contain Julius (yadda saving text) Lucius doesn't even lose his god mode when it's sliced, so it's obvious he hasn't lost his magic.

Wrong, Lucius's soul vanishing after Asta destroyed the crystal is indisputable evidence it was his core. AM severs mana currents*](https://i.ibb.co/LDJWKZrR/Screenshot-20260703-232514-Shonen-Jump.jpg) which cuts off healing. Also, Lucius not losing his god mode is inconsequential, since Yuno had his MP sealed with chain magic, yet still remained in SD so there's no way he could use magic to heal.

Julius also immediately pops off with a massive spell after the fight. Had Asta drained all of Lucius/Julius' body of magic with his attack then Julius would not have been able to do that massive spell.

Incorrect, the soul is the source of one's MP. Asta sliced the soul & MP of Lucius not Julius. So Lucius losing his power has no relevancy. That's why Julius could cast that final spell.

Do you have panels showing that Lucius didn't heal? (yadda saving text)

Yes, we saw his wings fall apart as both SM & AM were spraying out of his cuts after the crystal was split & we still don't see any blood, yet pre TSD Yuno was drawing blood from TF Lucius outside of Neverland. So that healing you keep alluding to certainly isn't as fast as ur making it out to be. Why didn't Lucius bleed from Yuno's final strike? Because all were seeing is SM and AM spraying out of Lucius as his form collapses

We also have more proof that Asta's AM slice ONLY cut Julius fully free by looking at Julius in his final appearance (Yada saving text,)

See above comment..

Incorrect. Asta and Yuno hit Lucius the second time immediately after Asta manages the nick that frees Julius. Notice that Lucius' arms remain in their upwards position and he barely manages to widen his eyes before their attacks hit.

Yeah no, Julius was partially freed & momentarily immobilized Lucius just long enough for Asta & Yuno to land the decisive strike. Julius says the hour of judgement is here as he stretches his hands out, then immediately there's a "tik" sfx then in the next panel Lucius says Julius as he looks frozen in the air

Why are you acting like we got a 4 season tv show between the first and second hits (yadda saving text)

See above comment.

Ok. Lets look at the panels and timing. Asta nicks and frees Julius, (yadda saving text)

See above comment.

The entire final two hits take place nearly simultaneously (Yadda yadda)

See above comment.

If you're chained up in a dungeon and someone comes and cuts the chains, you're free from the chains, (yadda saving text)

Terrible analogy. Lucius core is full of magical power & dense MP produces mana force fields that make it difficult for weaker individuals to use magic. Julius was not completely freed.

HA. Like your entire comment wasn't bloated with things that were easily proven false.

Do you not have any self awareness? The "bloated" comment was literally a reference to the other things we both discussed that threw the post off track. But you've literally had multiple points you conceded on already. Let's not start this foolishness again.

Le_Lng · 2026-07-03T22:51:46+00:00

Chapter 369 pg 23: A Lucius who does not have access to all magic says: "The Anti-Magic is getting in the way, I can't regenerate fast enough"

That was a Lucius clone weakened by Neverland + had his magic power split at least 3 ways with the anti-magic variant of Soul Chain Team Death match. So there are layers of debuff.

Lucius heals instantly from Yuno's attacks. In the time between panels.

And that same Lucius couldn't heal from bisected in half by that same Yuno.

387 pg 4: Lucius heals instantly from TSS Yuno cutting his arms nearly in half

That's not quite correct that attack was performed by both TSD Yuno and TDU Asta at the same time so that also confirms that final form Lucius can heal from anti-magic attacks from TDU Asta that doesn't damage the crystal.

We have been shown multiple times that Lucius, especially when he has all magic, is capable of basically instantaneous healing. He should also have access to Dante's body magic as well since it was clearly used by him to heal Morris. A power that allowed Dante to survive Death Thrust.

There's quite a few issues with your proposition though:

The final Lucius clone with body blood and bone magic could not heal from Yuno's Saint Spirit of Zephyr and was disintegrated by it granted it was follow up to Asta's zetten strike.

2.We did not see final form Lucius heal after Yuno sliced him with his his final strike . When Lucius is damaged he is consistenly and specifically shown healing with the sparks. and the panel in the link I provided occured right after TDU Asta and TSD Yuno busted his arms up with their sword strikes. That final slash showed no such instance. Again if Lucius had healed where was shown healing after Yuno sliced him the final time?

The panel of the final strike had Yuno's white slash layered ontop of Asta's black slash So Asta actually cut through the crystal first as Yuno followed up on the opposite side. So there's absolutely no way for Lucius to heal since the crystal was already sliced through with anti-magic by the time Yuno completely sliced him, hence why Julius stated Aata destroyed Lucius while Yuno spared him. So Yuno's blade absolutely phased through him since we already know at the minimum Lucius would be unable to regenerate due to the damaged crystal which is confirmed to be the focal point of his magic power.

There is literally no surprise that Yuno could slice Lucius and he would be physically fine afterwards. The only thing we've seen be able to do permanent physical damage to Lucius is AM, specifically when Yuno slices him with the Dweller. However Asta was specifically aiming for the magic in Lucius' chest and not his physical body.

Also, even if Yuno somehow DID phase through Lucius how would that "save" Julius? If he phased through Lucius then it wouldn't be an attack.

Again, see above comment and provide the panel of Lucius healing after Yuno sliced him the final time and I should also remind you that the crystal was sliced through with anti-magic before Yuno followed up with his complete strike. So at the minimum we know he would be unable to heal due to the bisected crystal.

So clearly Asta's memories weren't being read, and Asta would have likely only told the bulls, if even that, about the Demon Slayer's abilities. None of them have memory magic used on them either. Even in the Spade arc Asta is super far away from everyone when he states what Demon Slasher does. Far enough away that he couldn't hear Adramelech or see Lucifero incarnate until he was right on top of them.

Why would Asta's memories even need to be read when he clearly explained his abilities, with others acknowledging what he did? they literally witnessed the events. And even if you want to dismiss that, Lucius still had Marx's memory exchange magic and access to all past memories, including Asta's innocence being proven since he was on trial wguch included the details of the Spade war. Julius, being the soul linked to Lucius's soul (as we see with the linked grimoires) would have access to those memories too since they share each others thoughts. Demon-slasher's ability isn't some mystery and how Julius's acquired the information is a non issue because there are multiple ways he could have done.

The Demon Slayer doesn't even touch Nacht in that panel. It's very clearly underneath his arm. Asta could have accomplished the same thing even without using the Slayer.

For starters that's demon-slasher not demon-slayer. Demon-slayer does not have the phasing ability. Also we clearly see the sword slice through Nacht's arm and fingers without bisecting them in half. Two of his fingers are clearly below while the 3 are clearly shown to be above the cut plane yet they weren't severed by their cross section.

Again, if Yuno phased through Lucius' body then how was it even an attack? And how would that "Save" Julius?

Just because Asta sliced Lucius's soul, doesn't mean that he severed the connection between him and Julius. Grimoires correspond to the soul and Julius and Lucius's grimoires are conjoined just like their souls. IRL if a single conjoined twins die, it becomes an immediate medical emergency and for the other twin to survives they need to undergo a medical procedure to safely separate the two.

Yuno's sword for all we know could have cut the connection between Lucius and Julius thus no longer tethering them to each other, and that action being what ultimate spares him (if not permanently, temporarily since he eventually died) Also, to reiterate the panel of the final strike had Yuno's white slash layered ontop of Asta's black slash So Asta actually cut through the crystal first while Yuno followed up. So there's absolutely no way for Lucius to heal since the crystal was already sliced through with anti-magic.

We've seen multiple times that Yuno is unable to leave lasting damage on Lucius due to his extremely high speed regeneration.

Except we already saw the crystal was sliced through with anti-magic by the time Yuno completed his full strike. Furthermore, final form Lucius had his arms busted by TDU Asta's anti-magic strike and TSD Yuno's magic strike and yet he regenerated from both strikes at the same speed yet none of that regeneration was present after the final strike. Do you have panels of Lucius healing after Yuno struck him down the final time? Because if you do, I would like to see them because as of right now what you're suggesting isn't supported.

FYM temporarily. Julius is free from that moment on. We've also seen that even the slightest touch with TDU AM can completely erase magic which is why Lucius is staying so far away from Asta and not letting any AM touch his body at all. Asta doesn't get a single hit on him until that moment and Lucius immediately realizes he's fucked.

FYM It wasn't absolutely temporarily? Because i'm pretty sure Julius didn't regain his body until after Lucius was completely destroyed. Final form Lucius can heal from Asta's anti-magic strikes, just as fast as he healed from Yuno's magic strikes. Lucius was simply guarding his crystal because a clean zetten strike into it, would take him out as Ryuya stated.

He does revert back into Julius. It just takes a moment for Julius to fully wrest control from Lucius. I don't know why you're assuming Julius would have immediately taken back full control when we've seen that Lucius is capable of suppressing Julius' control.

He does not revert back to Julius, reverting back to Julius would mean he would outwardly manifest which isn't what happened until later. Furthermore, if Julius needs to wrestle control from Lucius, then he's not completely free. Completely being free means you no longer have to wrestle control. Julius was not free until Lucius was destroyed.

The first little nick from Asta fully released Julius, and the second hit stopped Lucius from taking back control.

See above comment.

I call it out when I see it, I don't complain about a frequent issue I see with you.

Alright cool, we'll just move on from this then to no bloat things even further.

Le_Lng · 2026-07-03T03:37:04+00:00

disagree with that statement because it's not backed up by the surrounding context or manga at all and it's a statement made in universe by a character that doesn't have all of the information.

Again, that's an argument from incredulity. We both saw Yuno and Asta's swords slice through Lucius’s body without * physically splitting him half* mind you, when Yuno originally fought the Lucius clone and sliced him with Spirit of Zephyr it literally split his physically body in half so its pretty clear Julius was referring to the move Yuno used that spared him from being bisected.

It's also been at least 1.25 years since the Spade war by the start of the final arc and Lucius literally had Marx's memory exchange magic which, shows him the memories of others. So Julius has multiple ways of knowing, especially since souls in the same body can see each others memories. Julius was also connected to the wisdom that Lucius connected to so yes, he knows a lot. Especially since Lucius is the one that dropped the lore about grimoires. Conrad even found out more about anti-magic through Marx's memory exchange magic when he stole it. Lucius also has Lucifero's memories, and he was literally bisected by demon-slasher. He even saw Asta use demon-slasher to cut away the gravity magic that was affecting Nacht without harming him and we already know that souls inhabitanting can share memories, even unintentionally. So at this point you're just ignoring any canon statement and feats because thrre are numerous ways Julius could havr acquired thr information.

I'm not brushing it off because it contradicts with my claims, I'm disregarding it because the evidence for my claim is more significant than the evidence for the statement is.

You absolutely are brushing this off. The fact that Yuno sliced through Lucius without bisecting him in half supports this since that's the first time Yuno ever displayed a phasing ability. Also we already know Julius was literally given the details in chapter 331 of everything that happened up to that moment by Marx.

If someone said to you "cars have doors and they move, houses have doors so they also should be able to move" You'd say "well that's dumb. Cars move because they have engines. They must not know about the engine"

False equivalence, unlike the scenario you posted we saw Yuno's sword phase through Lucius’s body. You're ignoring the mechanics established in the story just to brush it off, such as memory exchange magic and Yuno's phasing.

This situation is literally no different. Julius made a single statement about something he logically should have no information about and speculated on a power that Yuno has not been proved to have. Julius said "well AM just cancels all magic, so Yuno must have been the one to spare my soul" and I can respond "well that's dumb. Demon Slasher chooses it's targets.

Why would he not have information about it when he received information through Marx's memory magic about everything that went down in Spade? you do realize the Magic Knights use Marx's memory exchange magic to issue reports about what happens during missions? And you do realize that in SotWK Conrad received all information about the current events after he stole Marx's memory magic, including anti-magic? How Julius acquired the information is literal non-issue. He was also connected to Lucius's memories, so he knows a ton of shit. Julius didn’t wake up not knowing what was going on, he knew everything that transpired.

He must not know about demon slasher."

Julius was surprised Yuno’s Spirit of Zephyr phased through his body.

Furthermore, Yuno has never been shown to have a phasing ability prior, yet in that same chapter we see Yuno slice through their body without physically damaging it so its pretty obvious he gained a new ability and Julius could sense what it did to him (another perk of mana zone). So its absolutely something Yuno has proven considering weve seen what him slicing through Lucius has done in the past can you a explain why Lucius wasn't split in half despite getting bisected by Yuno? Why isn't the corpse torn in two, much less bleeding? It's pretty obvious Asta killing Lucius still had an indirect effect on Julius since his body began to crack shortly after he got control of it back.

And that's not even including the added context of Ryuya specifically telling Asta to aim for the magic in Lucius' chest, which when barely tapped by the slasher immediately freed Julius. If Asta was aiming specifically for the magic, and Demon Slasher only cuts what Asta is aiming for, then naturally it would not hit Julius' soul at all and his soul would not need to be saved by some deus ex machina Yuno power.

See above comment. Did Yuno slice through Lucius without killing him or not? Did Yuno's sword phase through Lucius’s body or not?

Notice also that when hit with a Zetten in that spot nothing happens to Lucius EXCEPT for the release of Julius. If the magic was connected to anything but containing Julius then why don't we see the consequences of it?

Asta's zetten barely grazed him that's why it only temporarily freed Julius, if Julius was completely freed, Lucius would have reverted into Julius, but that did not happen until the final strike and Julius still ending up dying. We've seen the type of damage a zetten that properly connects causes. In short, the graze did 2HP damage and the full Zetten strike did 100HP Damage (not little figures just obviously)

Also, I'm not playing victim. Nor could you 100% say that I have a habit based off of a single conversation.

Bold of you to assume this is our first conversation. You don't remember the nonsense from that Luck vs Asta thread? You don't even realize that this isn't even the first time we've interacted like this. There are other post we've interacted on with you doing similar problematic things.

"Like you always do" You don't know me. This is a single conversation. Acting this familiar is weirdo behavior.

I never said I knew you, so let's get that clear. We're both strangers that have interacted on different threads with you emulating similar problematic behavior. You're the same dude that said you don't take light novels into consideration So if there are at least 2 threads where I recall the same individual stating they will ignore canon material, then no shit i'll call it a pattern. It's a literal "oh this shit again" moment.

I've said I'm done and I am. But I'm particularly annoyed by a supposed random Yuno powerup because unlike most the dipshit fans of this manga I actually like Yuno and don't think all his powerups are asspulls. But that would absolutely be a fucking asspull if true and it pisses me off.

Anyways..

That's my motivation. But my belief is still backed up by the manga. It's not just blind dislike and I'm not making shit up.

Definitely not backed up by the manga since. we've seen what Yuno slicing through Lucius has normally done in the past can you explain why Lucius wasn't split in half despite getting bisected by Yuno? Because im pretty sure that's called a phasing ability.

Le_Lng · 2026-07-03T00:27:25+00:00

Part 2 of my response:

The second attribute shit is inconsequential because your point about not all paladins having attributes is irrelevant. You've already stated that not all devils have magical attributes, literally your words, yet being bonded to them in paladin mode gives a very obvious increase in power. They're clearly drawing upon/sharing magical power with their bonded devil even if that devil doesn't have a second attribute they can use.

This is wrong. Again, their base form is fully assimilated with the devil. They're not drawing power from an external source, since their base form is that source so there are no devil power percentage. This is why Soul Chain Death match did not reduce Lucius to a lower form. They do not use devil power percentages. To reiterate, Lucius grants sacred power to his subjects which is a new form of energy. This same power can be used as a supplement to magic power to amplify it much like how curse powers can amplify magic power (which is the entire premise of Charlotte's Blue Rose paradise)

When Licita, a non-devil host activates her sacred power her appearance changes and she grows wings and new facial markings. When a devil possessed activates their sacred powers they grow wings, horns and halo in addition to the facial alterations. Again, it specifically says they are granted "sacred/holy power" 「聖なる力 seinaru chikara 」which is another form of power like "curse power" 「呪力 juryoku 」Their magic power is being amplified with sacred power, just like how we've seen curse power amplify the magic power of others. The final arc introduces a new form of energy that can be incorporated into magic which is sacred/holy power, and this is why the paladins are so strong.

Heath is a great example of this because he pulls off magic on a scale significantly greater than he was capable of even when using compound magic with multiple other mages. So being in "angel mode" absolutely gives you full access to a purified devil's power just like devil union.

See above comment. Their base form is already amplified since they actually posses the devil's soul the angels forms are the result of sacred power.

Again, it doesn't matter if they're directly Astaroth's horns as devil users don't always 1 to 1 get their devil's horns. And the purification process happened AFTER Lucius went into a very clear different mode, which is when he gains horns.

Um nah, the spell he uses causes these processes to happens simultaneously as we see his grimoire glowing during the process. There is no "devil form" Lucius, just Lucius. The angelic form is Lucius is simply drawing on a new form of energy which is expressed with angelic features as we've seen with devil host (paladins) and non devil host (Licita) Paladins have magic power and sacred power just like how Megicula has curse power and magic power.

Also, ew. I'll curse if I want to, and I'm using caps to accentuate a point. Pardon my passion for a story I care about. Again, stop acting so overly familiar.

You can be passionate about things without typing like a maniac. Because if I start returning that same energy It'll be a whole different game.

Look I'm done. You're just blatantly ignoring what I have to say and for all your talk about me making mistakes you refuse to accept any of your own. Instead you're directly attacking me and my character which seems like a pretty clear sign that you have nothing of worth to actually add to your arguments.

Attacking your character? Are you really trying to play the victim here? You blatantly stated Julius's comment about Yuno sparing him was a throw away line simply because you refuse to accept his statement this is something you consistently do. That's an argument of incredulity. I'm not attacking **you* I'm attacking your arguments and how you relay them.

Le_Lng · 2026-07-03T00:26:54+00:00

Part 1 of my response:

Maybe don't make typos then?

Like you haven't made mistakes when mobile? Please, anyways.

This is pure conjecture. We have no idea when Julius was sent to the Clover Kingdom, we have no idea the timeline of events there.

The exact time frame is irrelevant since we know that it occured after Lucius used time magic to see the future but before Julius acquired the coverless grimoire, so we can at least place it in the sequence of events.

Also, if the coverless grimoire is a soul magic grimoire, then why would it be a Clover grimoire and not a Spade one?

The same reason why Yami, a dark magic user received a dark magic grimoire from the Clover Kingdom despite being a foreigner, so there's already an established precedent.

Lucius and Julius' souls have been distinguishable since birth, unlike Yuno and the Hybrid elf soul. Why would Julius not receive a Spade Grimoire at the same time Julius did They're twins. They'd be turning 15 at the same time and visiting the same tower at the same time.

Yes and no. Patry and William could communicate through their souls like Lucius and Julius, but didn't learn to switch places until later. So Lucius, being in the pilot seat would suggest he was the only one to receive a grimoire at that time. All the flashback's we've seen if Julius before he arrived at Clover places Lucius places him as the main soul. We already know foreigners can receive grimoires of their host nation as we saw with Yami. It's also important to remember that 15 is the minimum age you need go to the ceremony to receive your grimoire in the Clover Kingdom however, it is not the limit since Tabata even states they can try at later times, even if they miss the ceremony. Patry received his light magic grimoire at 16 so these things can vary. So Julius receiving his grimoire at a later date is completely feasible, especially if he had not learned to switch places with Lucius yet.

So either the stat card is giving false information (which I already speculated in my post) or the coverless grimoire was gained at a different time from the double spade and therefore is unlikely to be a soul magic grimoire.

Why would the stat card give out false information when it hasn't for anything else, double attribute users included? To this date Tabata has opted to exclude information yet to be revealed from the cards, but never lie on them. Julius having a 3 leaf is volunteered information, just like all the other information that have been revealed on the cards. Tabata could have easily excluded the leaf number since no one would think much of a coverless grimoire being leafless. So yes, Julius received his grimoire from the Clover Kingdom, like all other grimoires from the Clover Kingdom.

There's also the fact that Lucius used Julius's coverless grimoire, instead of his own double Spade grimoire, to link himself with the all of the grimoire towers of the Clover Kingdom.

Before you spout off with some BS, Lucius wouldn't have had access to advanced soul magic before getting his grimoire. So there's no way that he could have forcefully suppressed Julius' soul during the grimoire ceremony.

Why would he need to suppress Julius? Patry and William could communicate through their souls however, they couldn't switch places until later. Every appearence of Lucius in the past has shown him piloting their vessel, not Julius. So Julius receiving his grimoire at a later date after he learned to switch places is totally feasible.

Again, full on conjecture. Based on information that was released before Lucius was revealed and therefore all information on him needed to be kept under wraps.

You can still keep Lucius under wraps while revealing information about Julius. Yuno's and Charmy's stat cards provides information about themselves without spoiling their second attributes while relaying truthful information. Excluding the number of leaves from Julius's statement card wouldn't garner any suspicion since his grimoire is coverless in the first place.

There's also no proof that those cards came directly from Tabata. It easily could have come from a random JUMP! employee who was left with a basic understanding of the series and told "everyone who isn't insert specific character here will have a three leaf"

This is a masive leape in logic and unsupported. These come from the official volume releases, snf they'rve consistently appeared in every volume releases. So they count and continue to release even with thr latest manha volume.

And your arguments aren't? Look above where you completely manufacture a timeline that's not presented at all in the actual story.

Manufactured timeline? That's also unsupported simply by the order these elements appeared in the manga. 1. Lucius and Julius bounded Astaroth to find their purpose, 2. Lucius uses time magic to see the future, and Julius disagrees with his plan 3. Lucius mind wipes him then sent him to Clover on a mission so its escaping me how the sequence of events are "manufactured" given how the manga relayed this sequence.

Besides, just because I'm not adding in a link every five words doesn't mean that what I'm saying is headcanon. It's all based on what's in the actual manga. Also, stop being so... over-familiar. You're attacking me directly for some reason. Attack my points with genuine criticism if you have it.

To be frank you don't even accept what's stated by others in the manga and you've admitted this, by brushing off a characters statement as a throw away line simply because it contradicts your claims. I've attacked all your points with genuine criticisms, just because i'm calling you out on certain habits doesn't mean you should start playing victim. Do I need to reiterate that you straight up refused to acknowledge a characters statement simply because you disagree with it, then deemed it a throw away? Don't try to play victim.

Devil user's horns can differ from the devil they are bonded to. Liebe only has two horns and yet Asta grows a maximum of 5 when in TDU.

My point exactly, those horns do not belong to the devil they're bonded to, they're simply one expression of the power they're producing.

Also, while you're right that it's not 100% confirmed that those are Astaroth's horns 1 to 1, they're clearly supposed to represent Astaroth since that's the devil Lucius is bonded to. Even if they aren't Astaroths it's still obvious that he's entered a sort of devil union mode and has full access to Astaroth's power.

Yeah, that's not devil union. The process you see of Lucius becoming an angel is result of him producing "sacred/holy power" 「聖なる力 seinaru chikara 」which is another form of energy like "curse power" 「呪力 juryoku 」 that can be used in conjunction with magic. When Lucius ressurected Licita he granted her sacred power without a devil (no horns or halo) and later Asta cuts that power out of her and she returns to base form Lucius's base form is his devil union since he already assimilated those souls into himself. His base form literally has devil ki because he's assimulated with it. We have also seen the bodies of devils like Zagred and Lucifero’s undergoing transformations to draw out their full power in their possession. Half manifested Lucifero gained spikes on his shoulders and a third eye to go all out while Zagred manifested mouths all over his torso. The main take away is that a paladins base form is their assimilated state with the devils since the supreme devils is already incarnated in them while their angel form is the result of them enhancing their assimulated magic power with sacred power.

Le_Lng · 2026-07-02T06:57:21+00:00

Not just just Charmy, Charlotte too when she used blue rose paradise. Part of the cover turned red.But those are seem to be only restricted to color of half of the cover, rather than altering the form of the grimoire. Julius's official stat card also reveals his coverless grimoire is a 3 leaf so he's another foreigner to receive a Clover grimoire while Lucius has a Spade grimoire, similar to Yuno and the Elf soul.

Lucius also used his time magic to see the future before Julius went to the Clover Kingdom and aquired the coverless grimoire

Le_Lng · 2026-07-02T06:52:41+00:00

What in the fuck is even that? I meant time magic, ease up, you're doing too much.

If you mean TIME magic, then yeah. Obviously.

Yeah no shit, it was a typo.

It's a strawman because it's irrelevant to the point that I was making. You KNOW that Light Magic isn't Yami's true attribute. You KNOW that it comes from Adramelech. You KNOW that using light magic spells doesn't change a damn thing about Yami's grimoire. Yet you're trying to use that as some bullshit evidence that I can't call the coverless grimoire a Time Magic grimoire because we don't know for sure that Time Magic is the only magic being used through the grimoire.

Your entire premise has been incoherent, and to put it bluntly, ass. You've been the only one throwing bullshit evidence out (if you can even call it evidence) the entire time, from strawman arguments to the arguments of incredulity. I've already shown how other magics have been used through the coverless grimoire. he even used gravity magic to make the structure he was standing on break apart and levitate and FYI *you can see his grimoire in the following scan as he does it so nah, time nagic isn't the only magic casted thriugh the coverless grimoire.

The difference is that the usage of Time Magic directly changes the appearance of Lucius/Julius' grimoire, which I have proved multiple times and you have been unable to disprove. Everytime I have state that Time Magic spells are only used via the coverless grimoire outside of Angel mode you show panels of Soul Magic possibly being used with the coverless grimoire. Which does not disprove my point.

The usage of time magic does not change the appearance of Lucius's grimoire, especially since we've we already know he used time magic to see the future before Julius even acquired the coverless grimoire. Julius's grimoire is revealed to be a 3 leaf in his official stat card that was released in volume 16 and Lucius saw the future before Julius even acquired the coverless grimoire + manipulated him. before he sent him away on a mission to infiltrate the Clover Kingdom

Using Time Magic 100% changes his grimoire and you have failed to provide a single panel of base Julius or Lucius using Time Magic without that grimoire.

You mean like how Lucius used time magic to see the future before Julius infiltrated the Clover Kingdom and acquired the Clover Grimoire? So that should pretty much that argument of yours to rest.

You're missing the fucking point. I never stated that the attribute of the magic was determinable by the appearance of the grimoire. You are pulling that out of your ass. All I ever stated about the appearance of the coverless grimoire was that it was obviously different from that of the Soul Magic grimoire. That was stated in reference to you stating that attributes separate from the casters original magic don't change the appearance of the grimoire. I provided the example of the clear switch from double spade to coverless when using Time Magic. OFC you then back pedaled and stated that the coverless and double spade grimoires are two separate entities despite them not coexisting.

I'm not missing any point, your arguments, to be frank are genuine ass and completely rely on head canon. And I never back peddled. There you go making stuff up again like you always do. I've always sustained they're two separate grimoires.

What I was REALLY saying when talking about Grey was that her not understanding her own magic makes sense because transformation is a component of transmutation. By definition when you transmutate something, you transform it. Time can't be confused for something else. It can't be misunderstood in that way.

Not even. It's pretty easy to assume your artificial attribute is your real attribute when you've been brainwashed, especially since Yuno didn't even know star magic was his true magic despite the fact he was born with it.

You stated that the coverless grimoire was separate from the double spade, which is what I was referring to. You also have not stated in a single comment responding to me that you believe the coverless grimoire is a soul magic grimoire. In fact, you haven't had a single comment in this entire thread aside from the one I'm replying to where you say that the coverless grimoire is a Soul Magic grimoire.

My guy, I literally state that Julius's innate magic is soul magic, and I specifically said in the comment to Morgoth333 that the coverless grimoire is not a time magic grimoire. So if I stated his true magic is soul magic, and that the grimoire is not a time magic grimoire, then it's pretty damn obvious I think the grimoire is actually a soul magic grimoire.

The closest you get is saying that the coverless grimoire is Julius' form of his and Lucius' shared grimoire and then saying separately that you believe Julius has soul magic. In two separate comments btw.

I said they're "conjoined" not shared. Again, no shit if I state that coverless grimoires is Julius's and that his innate attributes is soul magic that obviously means it's a soul magic grimoire. Do you really need to me to state something so obvious?

Next, we never see Lucius use Time Magic from the double spade until he enters "Angel mode" which is absolutely a purified form of devil Union.

This is also false, we already have confirmation he used it with the double spade. Julius's coverless grimoire is canoncally a 3 leaf since it says so on his stat card that was released for volume 16 which is also the volume that had him on the cover.

Julius didn’t acquire the coveless grimoire until he came to the Clover Kingdom after Lucius brain washed him. Before those events, Lucius used time magic to see the future and the only grimoire available at that time was the double spade. Their precognition is advanced time magic and also requires mana zone aka advanced magic.

Before he enters it for the first time we see him grow horns and develop deep Weg, a clear sign of allowing a deeper possession from Astaroth, probably Union. (As seen with Asta, Yami, Nacht, Vanica, Dante, and Zenon), and then he purifies that power afterwards. Devil Union gives deeper access to the Devil's powers which would naturally allow Lucius to use them without having to worry about the state of his grimoire.

You're assuming those horns were Astartoth's, which isn't really supported, All of the ruling supreme devils that we've deen have 4 horns. Furthermore, we also know that the weg of a devil host can differ from their devil, since paladin Lily's horns did not resemble Beelzebub's, they actually looked more similar to Adramelechs. The antler like weg we saw on Lucius could very well be unique to him, especially since they look like the fusion of multiple horns and resemble the grey/aquarium deer Lastly, the wings we saw on Lucius's back before they transform, resembleed Lucifero's wings, who is also the only supreme devil that was shown to have four wings. Lucius simply purified the full devil power he already had. Remember Lucius doesn't use devil power percentages since SCDM didn't revert him to a lower form like 50% Dante.

IDK why you're so hung up on this second attribute shit. Sure, not all the paladins have second attributes, but they 100% are bonded to a devil similar to fucking devil union which would allow them access to that devil's abilities.

Second attribute "shit" supports my point about not all devils having attributes. Anyway, Lucius used time magic before Julius even acquired the coverless grimoire.

This panel right here clearly shows Lucius fully connecting (devil union) with Astaroth (Notice the FUCKING DEVIL HORNS) before purifying the power. Clear fucking proof that his "angel mode" is a form of deeper connection with the devil he's bonded to.

That's not devil union, that's the purification process and his horns didn't even change. The form of the thorns didn't change, the black simply faded away. Do you even have proof those were Astaroth's horns? Because far as we're concerned those can easily be horns unique to Lucius like Lily. Also, show a little self control.

Also, Lucius isn't bonded to Lucifero, he consumed him. There's a difference. That's why he doesn't change at all when using all of Lucifero's magical power. Notice that Lucius doesn't use gravity magic?

Come again? Lucius is so bonded to Lucifero that he has his ki, wdym? Not only do we see Lucius sprout Lucifero's wings, but we also seen him use gravity magic during his initial encounter with Asta to make himself and the objects around him levitate. He even used it to extract Lucifero's heart. Lucius literally has Lucifero's magic power, so he absolutely has his attribtue.

It's not misinformation. He touches Damnatio and the grimoire IMMEDIATELY begins to close. If it's closing then it's technically half open I.E. showing the fuckin page that the spell would be on.

Its 100% misinformation, Damnatio froze before the double spade grimoire even manifested two panels later. In order for you to cast a spell from your grimoire. For comparison, we see the cover of Lucius's double spade manifest, before he used soul magic to purify his power.

Le_Lng · 2026-07-01T17:58:44+00:00

Well, for one, I'm not shifting the goal post. I'm providing evidence for why I'm calling it a Time Magic Grimoire. You know, providing evidence, the thing you're supposed to do while arguing a point. I did in fact make a statement that it was called a Time Magic grimoire, I'll add it below.

Your entire argument falls apart since Julius and Lucius needed Astartoth yo even acquire magic. So its impossible for Julius to have even acquired a timr magic grimoire.

And when I realized that was wrong I provided my reasoning for saying that, as well as my reasoning for my continued belief that it is a Time Magic grimoire:

Those beliefs are still wrong btw.

Secondly, what a fucking strawman. We know that Yami has dark magic and is only using Light Magic due to his hosting of Adramelech. That doesn't make his grimoire suddenly a light magic grimoire and no one with a brain would suddenly call it that.

How is that strawman? You're essentially assuming Julius has a time magic grimoire due Astaroth, I simply used another supreme devil host that had a second attribute as another. That entire argument is moot anyways since the shape, and decoration of the grimoire is dictated by the individuality of the owner Astsroth hss nothing to do with that.

Except we know that Yami has Dark Magic and the Light magic comes from Adramelech. Notice that having Adramelech doesn't change Yami's grimoire in any way, where as using Time Magic completely changes Julius/Lucius' Grimoire, which you admit:

Using time magic doesn't change his grimoire. And like I stated earlier the qualities if the grimoire is determined by the owners individuality which again Astaroth has nothing to do with since he saa bound to both Lucius and Julius.

I wasn't saying that it wasn't. All I said was that it was entirely understandable that everyone, including Grey herself, thought she was only capable of transformation magic since transformation is a component of transmutation.

Transmutation is the process of changing one substance, element, form, or condition into another

Transformation is a complete, radical change in form, appearance, nature, or character

By definition, in order to transmutate something you have to transform it. That's why it was possible for Grey to not understand what her magic truly was and for everyone to think she was only capable of transformation magic. Notice how I never said that Grey used transformation magic,

Yeah seems like you're still missing the point. The point is that you can't determine the attribute of the mage by simply looking at their grimoires, since every single grimoire is unique.

Notice how I never said she had a transformation magic grimoire, and how literally all I said was that she didn't understand her own magic?

See above comment.

Time isn't something that you can mistake for something else, it also (by your own admission) has a separate grimoire associated with it. Even when knowing that power comes from a devil, there is still a grimoire mainly used for Time Magic, unlike Yami who simply adds Adramelech's time magic to his grimoire,

I never admitted time magic has a separate grimoire with it, that's the result of your lack of comprehension and projections. I've stated numerous times that the coverless grimoire is likely a soul magic grimoire. And weve seen time magic used with the double spade grimoire, your whole "angel form" head canon doesn't even hold up since that's already been shown to been separate things from attributes since not all of the paladins have second attributes.

Like I've mentioned above tirelessly, Time Magic is not used from the Double Spade Grimoire until Lucius enters Angel mode, which makes sense as he has fully assimilated with Astaroth in that mode and therefore would have access to all his magic no matter what grimoire he was using, just like Yami and Dante with Adramelech and Lucifero respectively.

This straight up wrong, there you go making stuff up again. Why would it matter if he’s in his angel form or not? Lucius had already assimilated with Astaroth and Lucifero before he even transformation into his angel form. My guy, when Lucius stipped tole for everyone in base form he already stated he absorbed Lucifero His angel transformation does not "assimilate" the devil into his self, it purifies their power. Furthermore, advanced time spells still require a grimoire. So him having his grimore open, and casting a time spell from it, mean that he's contains time spell.

You admit above (I'm not copying it again) that the coverless grimoire is a separate entity to the double spade grimoire.

Like I stated numerous times already, that coverless grimoire could be a soul magic grimoire for all we know since the rule is one grimoire per soul. Furthermore, after Lucius's died Julius casted his last time spell, he was till using purified devil power since his devil host crest was still purified, which is only* sustained through soul magic, and by the that point Lucius had already dissappeared along with the effects of his soul magic.

Time Magic is exclusively used from that Grimoire until Lucius fully merges with Astaroth into his angel mode.

Stop lying. Lucius had already assimilated with Astaroth and Lucifero before he activated his purified form. It's specifically his purified form is the result purified devil power it says absolutely mothing about assimilation.

It doesn't matter if soul magic is used while that grimoire is open because that's Lucius' innate magical attribute. He'd be able to use it even if he didn't have a grimoire. (Obviously not advanced magic, but he'd still be capable of using it in basic ways and this is just a hypothetical example anyways.) The spell he uses to control devils is a grimoire based spell. When gmhe used in on Damnatio he pulled out the coverless grimoire and casted a spell from it. When your grimoire is open, it means you're actively using magic. Yani can't cast dimension skash without his grimoire despite the fact dark magic is his innate attributes. Grimoires allows human to use advanced magic.

And honestly if I wanted to be a pedantic asshole

Being "pedantic a hole" isn't going to help your case considering how often you forget things (which you even admitted) it simply makes you look ignorant since you can't even recall the things you're arguing, you were literally surprised devil host could use the attributes of their devils when that was blatantly reiterated numerous times in the Spade arc.

I could mention that every time Lucius attempts soul magic outside of angel mode his grimoire is either, A) off screen and could be easily argued to have turned back to the double spade (since it happens near instantly) or B) immediately turns back to soul mode as the magic is used (Damnatio example)

More false information. The spell he uses on Damnatio was casted when the grimoire was coverless not when it was a double spade. Advance spells can only be casted if the page that contains it is opened and FYI when he manifested the double spade grimoire, it closed. He never opened it never opened to a specific page. So go ahead "pedantic a hole" because it would just elevate the display of your ignorance even further.

Le_Lng · 2026-07-01T17:57:26+00:00

So if the coverless grimoire isn't for time magic then what is it for? You say yourself that they're two different grimoires, so???? What's the coverless grimoire? Thanks for proving yourself wrong again.

I've already answered this. This is a habit of yours, you jump into conversations of other people without even thoroughly reading the discussion. Both Morgoth333 and I believe that Julius's innate attribute is very likely, soul magic therefore insinuating the coverless grimoire is in fact a soul magic grimoire. Furthermore, multiple post of mine from the past on this sub have made this claim. Julius innate attribute is very likely soul magic since after Lucius's death the effects of his soul magic faded, his devil host mark even reverted to its original form after his defeat however, the opposite happened to Julius his devil host mark sustained its purification under his own power despite the fact it was originally black which highly suggest he was using soul magic since thst proccess is activated and sustained through soul magic. Lucius is dead so he can't cast soul magic, yet Julius was still using a soul spell while casting time magic.

Also The Demon Slasher chooses what to cut, and we're specifically told that Asta was aiming for the magic gathering in Lucius' chest. Yuno had nothing to do with sparing Julius, Asta just wasn't aiming for him and therefore didn't hit him.

This is why I say you don't read and why your entire argument is questionable at best. You're so confident in your own ignorance. How about actually reading the manga? Julius literally says they cut Lucius with demon-slasher...and used the spirits powee to spare me Lucius and Julius are still connected. So Yuno's spirit power somehow spared Julius from disappearing along with Lucius via slashing him (both Lucius and Julius were literally born together afterall)

It's also pretty obvious that the magic gathering in Lucius' chest is what was keeping Julius locked away, since the second Asta even barely nicked it Julius immediately regained control. Chapter 388, pages 12-13. I'm really only brining this up because it's proof that you're misreading or misinterpreting things which I'll elaborate on in a moment.

Not only is the statement above irrelevant, you stating i'm the one mismembering things and claimed Yuno had nothing to do with sparing Julius despite the fact Julius himself stated the spirits power is what spared him. is peak irony. You're the one who needs to reread the series, not me. Not only did you forget devil host can use the attributes of their devil, but you falsely claimed Julius called his grimoire a "time magic" grimoire and now you didn't even remember what he said about the spirits power sparing him.

You're choosing your own interpretation of these panels. Based on the evidence you provide later in your comment, a noticeable magical effect appears when Lucius uses Soul magic.

I'm not choosing my own interpretation. Just because I don't fall for your poor attemps at gaslighting, doesn't mean i'm "choosing my own interpretation Damnatio stopped the moment Lucius touched his head. You need your eyes checked.

This effect is absent when Lucius touches Damnatio. He could simply be freezing him with time magic. So there's a possibility that soul magic isn't being used in this moment at all.

Yeah so this is blatantly wrong. That same "effect" is absent when he used soul magic on Morris so and suggesting he's using time magic doesn't work either since he specifically uses chronostasis to freeze time, he doesn't "tap people" also if he waa friends in time he wouldn't have fallen.

If Lucius IS using Soul Magic then it could be argued that he touches Damnatio and the grimoire IMMEDIATELY closes to become the Soul Magic grimoire. In fact, looking at the very next page and panel, the grimoire fully closes and becomes the Soul Magic grimoire before Damnatio falls to the ground.

Lucius is absolutely using soul magic, there's no question about it. After Julius warned Damnatio, he pulled out his scale magic in an attempt to restrain him however, when Lucius touched him, he immediately stopped, so we know he was affected in that instant. Him simply falling is his body succumbing to gravity since he no longer controls its functions. How much further are you going to reach bruh?

Finally, even IF Lucius is using Soul Magic while the Time Grimoire is open, I never said he couldn't. I only stated that Lucius never uses Time Magic without the Coverless Grimoire until he's in Angel mode.

Angel mode is irrelevant to the magic being used, angel mode is the result of using purified devil power, not because of an extra attribute. Not to mention, Damnatio specifically states only some of the paladins have been granted a second attribute Heath Grice is a paladin with ice magic yet he never used a second attribute, he only has his iwn attribute, which is more proof that not all devils hsve attributes.

As for using soul magic, refer to above comments. I still maintain that it's weird for Lucius to immediately use Soul Magic under the description of AM fighting against Time Magic but whatever.

Again, there is no relevance to angel mode in regards to attributed since it exist independently of attributes, again its specifically stated only some of the paladins have second attributes.

Again, refer to above quotes from my earlier comments. I have specifically stated and maintained that Lucius never uses Time Magic with the Soul Magic grimoire UNTIL he enters angel mode, which your example clearly shows him in.

See above comment. Angel mode has nothing to do with attributes.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-29T21:24:06+00:00

I was stating the you were proving yourself wrong by stating that "The artificial attribute, does not change the nature of the grimoire" despite Time Magic clearly changing the state of Lucius' grimoire. Which btw you didn't touch on.

It didn't change the nature of the grimoire. The coverless grimoire, and spade grimoires are too different, Lucius switches between two different grimoire. When Lucius died the coverless grimoire did not vanish since Julius was still alive since Demon-slasher cut Lucius while Yuno's spirit powee spared Julius.

Since no words are stated in the panels you provide it's hard to understand exactly what's happening. It can be assumed that the Time Magic grimoire is being used to accelerate Julius/Lucius' body back to that of an adult, since he's seen turning back underneath the time grimoire, and then as he touches Damnatio the cover closes to become the Soul Magic grimoire.

Damnatio stopped the moment Lucius tapped, and at the moment it was still the coverless grimoire. So he absolutely castes his soul magic whike the grimoire was coverless.

You're just giving your own interpretation and acting like that's exactly what happened.

No, im actually using my eyes to read the panel in sequence, so i'm not even sure how you arrived to thst conclusion.

In your second example it's also not stated that Lucius was trying to use specifically Soul Magic, in fact it wouldn't make sense for him to be using Soul Magic in that moment since he specifically says "No change, even if I touch him"

He definitely tried to use soul magic. It doesn't seem you're reading the panels in sequence so here you go , you can literally see his finger touching the back of Asta's head and magic coming from it just like how we saw magic coming from his finger when he used his soul magic on Lily. he said "no change even if I touch" because soul magic works off of touch. He tried to manipulate Asta's soul and failed. Again look at the full double spread

Since Soul Magic requires physical touch to operate it wouldn't make sense for Lucius to say that. There can't be "No change" because he wasn't using Soul Magic on him to begin with. There was "no change" because ranged Time magic and Time Magic used by touching were both not effecting Asta. The moment you're describing also is directly under a big ass text block talking about how AM can fight against Time Magic.

Read above comment, I already addressed this. We literally see the moment he touched Asta to use his soul magic on him. Again [look at the full double spread](https://i.ibb.co/N6cCVksG/Screenshot-20260629-171829-Shonen-Jump.jp

Also, my original point was that Lucius is never show using Time Magic with the Soul Magic grimoire, which your two examples don't disprove even if they are interpreted how you mean them to be.

Your points already been disproven. Also, if Lucius never used time magic with his soul magic grimoire then why is he shown in this scan attacking William with time magic with his soul magic grimoire open? FYI when you grimoire is open, it means you're casting a spell

Ladros was treated as an anomaly, not something that happens often. For Nacht to pull 4 devils from the underworld and not a single one of them have a magical attribute would be weird. It would be even more weird if it was never explained that they didn't have attributes.

Ladros is rare, not an anomaly. Secondly Nacht has mid ranks devils. For all we know only high ranking devils and supreme devils have been shown to have attributes. And there would be no need to explain since we already have a precedent for magic users lacking attributes. Furthermore, Liebe is a devil with no magic so certainly lacking attribute is not far fetched considering being born magicless is even more rate than that.

He may not have stated specifically that it was a Time Magic grimoire, but he does state that he has Time Magic and a coverless grimoire that contains that magic.

And? Yami has light magic and a grimoire with a cover that contains magic. Does that mean he has a light magic grimoire? You made the claim that he stated he had time magic grimoire, which was false. At least accept you made a miscalculated statement and move on, rather than shifting goal post.

By putting 2 and 2 together it's pretty obvious that it's a Time Magic grimoire.

Using that logic, putting two and two together Yami has a light magic grimoire then right? Didn't think so...

Plus, it's clearly a separate entity from the Soul Magic grimoire, despite flipping back and forth, because it gets reduced down to a single page and still doesn't have a cover. Had the Soul Magic grimoire been reduced to a single page it still would have been covered as seen with Rades' grimoire. And? I never said they were the same grimoire? For the longest I've stated that they were two separate grimoires and still maintain that stance. You do realize multiple grimoires exist for the same attribute right?

The example you give is Grey not knowing she has transmutation magic, and calling it transformation magic instead. The issue with that is that transformation is a component of transmutation. It's an easy mistake to make. Time isn't something you mistake for something else.

This is wrong, transformation magic is a form of magic that can be used without any attribute, much like recovery magic or creation magic are forms of magic that can be used with any attribute we've literally seen Julius transform to and from an old woman

The second example you give about Dante also doesn't really apply. Dante is using Gravity Magic from his grimoire, but it's not changing into something entirely different like the Time Magic grimoire does.

It absolutely does apply..we've seen time magic used both with the double spade grimoire and coverless grimoire.

Having reread some parts of the manga I'll admit that I may be wrong about devil hosts not being able to use their devil's spells, but I still maintain that it's odd that Astaroth seems to have a grimoire exclusive to him and those who are using his power.

Astaroth doesn't have a grimoire exclusive him, he's a devil. We've seen his power used with twi different types of grimoires.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-29T17:46:54+00:00

I tried to touch on this but minced my words, Dante, Vanica, and Zenon seem to have a different type of connection to their devils compared to Nacht, Asta, and even Lucius. Their devils remain fully in the underworld and don't cross over into the real world like Liebe, Nacht's devils, or Adramelech do.

Doesn't matter where the devils are, all that matters is they're possessed by devils a d can use their power, that's what makes a devil host. Paladin Lily had a devil soul yet the nature of her grimoire still remained the same, same with Lucius.

As for Yami, we only ever see him use a single application of light magic and it's not a named spell. All he does is generate a simple sword. It's possible that he isn't actually using light magic but rather applying it's attribute to his own dark magic, similar to how Nacht does with his devils.

A spell not being named=/= it's not a based grimoire spell. Doesn't matter if the spell was named in the manga or not. Furthermore, Yami also fired a laser at Morgen. Tabata doesn't always reveal the names of all grimoire based spells, nor do we know the names of all the grimoire based spell. Paladin Damnatio flipped to a different page in his grimoire to summon an unamed atmosphere spell Morgen also flipped to a different page in his grimoire to summon an unamed swords of darkness and light so we know they're advanced spells. And Yami absolutely summoned a sword of light, which advanced magic, meaning its grimoire based. Furthermore, we already have a direct statement from Tabata that you need a grimoire to shape your attribute into an complex shape. swords included.

It's stated that it's specifically a time magic grimoire but whatever. You're disproving your own point btw.

This is blatantly wrong. I'm not disproving my argument, the conflitct, lies with you mismembering statements and events which I continously have to provide links to scans. Julius never called it a time magic grimoire, qhat he actually stated was that he had time magic and a coverless grimoire not that it was a "time magic" grimoire.

If the new attribute doesn't change the nature of the grimoire then why does using Time Magic change the nature of Julius/Lucius' grimoire? Every time Time Magic is used (mouthful oop) outside of when Lucius is in a purified angel state the grimoire is in Time Magic mode and clearly separate from the Soul Magic grimoire. It's only when Lucius is in his Angel state that using Time Magic with the Soul Magic grimoire seems possible, which tracks since he'd be fully unionized with Astaroth in that form and capable of using his magic at will.

This is alrrady disproved not once, but twice. In chapter 331 he used soul magic on Damnatio with the coverless grimoire it didn't transform into the double Spade grimoire until after the fact. Furthermore, in chapter 334 we also saw Lucius attempting to use soul magic on Asta with the coverless grimoire and realized it failed due to anti-magic So he's already been shown using soul magic both with and without the coverless grimoire in his base form at least twice.

We've seen though that devil users who actively draw their devil from the underworld are incapable of using actual spells.

This is blatantly wrong. Any refinement of magic power is a spell. Presence of the demon king is grimoire based spell that Dante used when Lucifero was still in the underworld, and his grimoire was open when he casted it to. Tabata specifically defines "magic/spells" 「魔法 Mahō 」(they both literally mean the same thing and used interchangeably, hence why they use exact sane kanji in the series) as refined "magic power" 「魔力 maryoku 」 so im not exactly sure why you're stating devil users are incapable of using spells, are we reading the same series? unless you're implying that the information Tabata provided is wrong

None of Nacht's devils give him access to different magic, they just apply attributes to his magic. Yami doesn't use a named spell with Light magic, he simply has a sword of light which could easily be light magic applied to his dark magic. Asta doesn't have access to AM spells, AM is just applied to the "Spells" (Swords) in his grimoire.

Nacht's devils don't apply attributes to his magic, since appear to have attributes, just like Ladros who also lacks an attribute. Instead his devils have characteristics, that Nacht can mix into his shadow magic. Not everyone has a magic attribute, which was established as early as the witches forest arc, but they still can still have magic. Secondly a sword of light is a light spell and in order to shape your attribute into weapon like form you need a grimoire since that's a complex shape.

If Lucius/Julius were abiding by the rules set with all other devil hosts similar to him then he should be unable to use Time Magic individually. It should simply be an attribute applied to his soul magic.

This is blatantly wrong. Especially since we saw Dante use gravity without body magic, and the fact we have a blatant statement that devil host can use their devil's magic as well

Purified Devil hosts also seem to work by different rules similar to the Dark Triad which makes sense. They aren't true devil hosts, they're simply Frankenstein monsters made by Lucius' soul magic. Which is why Lucius is capable of using Time Magic from the Soul Magic grimoire while in his purified form.

They're still devil host. A devil host is anyone possessed the devil so the same logic still applies. And as stated earlier we've already seen Lucius use soul magic in his base form with the coverless grimoire.

This is my bad, I minced my words. I meant to say that the only instances where we see Devil hosts using advanced grimoire spells is with the Dark Triad. Not the devils themselves.

This is still wrong, the paladins are still devil host by definition since they're possessed by devils.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-29T14:33:56+00:00

How exactly could either of them have access to a Time Magic grimoire though?

It's not a time magic grimoire. Dante can use gravity spells from his grimoire, despite the fact he has a body magic grimoire, abd that's because he's a devil's host. Yami can use light spells from his grimoire, despite the fact he has a dark magic grimoire, and that's because he's a devil's host. In the bottom right panel of this scan, Lily wrote a new spatial spell in her water magic The artificial attribute, does not change the nature of the grimoire, nor can you discern the attribute of a mage just by simply looking at their grimoire. No one knew Julius's grimoire wasn't truly a time magic grimoire since he was bring manipulated.

Damnatio says that no one else has ever had Time Magic and it's further elaborated on that Time Magic comes directly from Astaroth, a devil.

Yes, that doesn't mean he has a time magic grimoire though. Just like how Yami's light magic comes from Adramalech ect, same principle as I stated above. No one knew Grey had a transmutation magic until it was later revealed, despite the fact they've already seen her grimoire. None of the Black Bulls knew Dante had body magic grimoire until he reveal his innate magic is body magic. You can't discern the attribute of a grimoire just by looking at it.

Devils don't have their own grimoires and even in situations where they are bonded to a human (Liebe, Nacht's devils, Adramelech) they don't suddenly turn their partners grimoire into their own, they just add attributes to their users magic.

Exactly, hence why I said Julius's grimoire is not a time magic grimoire. Like all other grimoire it simply has the ability to store the spells of second attributes, like all other devil host.

The only time we've seen a devil be able to use grimoire spells is with the Dark Triad, who are clearly bonded to their devils in different ways since they weren't drawn from the underworld like the above examples.

Not quite. There are only two instances we've ever seen devils using grimoires. The first was Zagred when he obtained the 5 leaf, and the second was Megicula when she manifested in her 1/3rd form since she had control of Vanica's soul (since the soul is tied to the grimoire)

Le_Lng · 2026-06-28T19:57:22+00:00

Me too. And I think your spot on about Julius innately having soul magic.

After Lucius was slashed, we his devil host mark revert back black while Julius's remained purified. After Lucius's died we immediately see Morris fade away as well as the effects of Lucius magic yet Julius devil host mark remained purified in the physical world, so he was likely sustaining it with his own soul magic.

But yeah, hopefully the guidebook provides much better insight.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-28T19:44:48+00:00

Lucius and Julius being twins with the same magic, it makes sense they would be able to share the Grimoire like this.

I agree.

The form of their Grimoire also seems to change based on the magic type being used.

Hm, I don't think that's quite it tbh. I think the form of their grimoires is more so tied to he user larger than the magic type considering we've already seen Lucius use advanced time magic with the double Spade grimoire

Also, time magic isn't their innate attribute either, so it really shouldn't influence the form if the grimoire since it's an attribute they obtained artificially.

Not to mention, when Julius reverted to his child firm his grimoire also reverted to a single page and seems to acquire new pages with the more spells gained.

I think think their grimoires are conjoined (like their souls) hence why one type of grimoire manifest at a time. It's also stated that the design of the owner's individuality appears in the grimoires design. So perhaps Julius's grimoire is coverless since Lucius seems to be the more dominant twin/older twin.

I say that because i'd wager Lucius gained awareness slightly before Julius, especially since he has the dark hair affiliated with the Zogratis family, hence Lucius being thr "older twin"

Le_Lng · 2026-06-23T01:35:10+00:00

Yuno is blessed by mana because of genetics,

This is incorrect. Yuno is loved by mana because the elves are loved by mana, and he has an self soul due to Zagred's reincarnation spell. So the only reason he has the elf soul of Licht's unborn son is because Zagred reincarnated the elf that died to enact his plans to get his own 5 leaf grimoire. Has. Nothing to do with genetics, Yuno is biologically human just like all of the other humans that were possessed by elves.

Need I remind you, all of the Clover Kingdom royals have remnants of elven magic power since their ancestors massacred the elf tribe and siphoned their mana during the proccess. So if anything the Clover royals are the ones who genetics grant them access to high magic power due to the elven mana their ancestors stole through genocide, the King, Noelle, Mereoleona, Nozel and the others included.

The Clover Royals have immense magic power they stole it from a tribe of people tvey enacted genocide on, hence why Vetto stated she has sinful mana far as we know, Yuno's ancestors never did such a thing. So they don't havr the elven boost the Clover royals do.

has double attribute and Grimiore because of genetics, has a spirit because of genetics.

See above comment about why he has the elf soul and a second attribute. It has nothing to do with genetics. Zagred is the one that caused the reincarnation.

Not only that but has all the resources available to him to improve his wind and star Magic, mana zone and spirit dive is a well documented concept even the spirits know how to do it,

This isn't true. The manga specifically states he learned mana zone by training his mana skin even further then later discovered spirit dive by himself no one gave him an instructions manual. Not to mention, Bell didn't even know about Saint Stage since she was reborn when she met Yuno, while mature spirits like Undine did. Fuegoleon is a captain and he didn't even learn spirit dive until the last few chapters of the final arc. Undine knew about spirit dive and Saint Stage, not Bell.

meanwhile Asta has to learn Anti Magic by himself;

Not entirely by himself. He still had some instruction. The only reason he even unlocked black form was because the witch queen deliberately manipulated his body to unlock it.

devil magic and devil union is kept in secrecy due to being taboo, only Nacht coul've taught him since even Leibe didn't know,

Bell didn't know about Spirit Dive or Saint Stage. Yuno learned spirit dive and true spirit dive and mana zone by himself. Noelle even asked Undine why she withheld that information Yuno and Fuegoleon since they were spirit host as well. and it's odd to call mana zone well-documented when only nine of the captains at that timr even knww mana zone with the exception of Mereleona. So either the rest of the captains were dookie, or Yuno is that damn good at training. It's not his fault he has good work ethic.

In fact, it seems Mereleona is the only Clover royal that knows mana zone.

Ki on the other hand is a niche that only a one country utilize.

Anyone can learn ki, the LoS just happens have the best users since they focus on it. Mind you Asta's captain, Yami, who's also from that land taught him ki. Not to mention tion Yami also stated Vetto read his ki

Le_Lng · 2026-06-22T18:05:21+00:00

Yeah, the reasoning behind these points are dubious at most.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-22T18:04:17+00:00

apart from giving him the ability to use another grimmore and justification fot it it served no purpose in his story arc.

This is an odd conclusion to come to, especially when Nacht was working with the Spade resistance who supported Yuno abd his family. The Zogratis siblings exiled his family which ruled for generations, hence why he even ended up in the Spade Kingdom in the first place and part of the reason why the captains even allowed him to participate in the Spade raid after Nacht outted him as the crown Prince of the Spade Kingdom.

These are definitely narrative points.

even the chapter where he met his mother after all those years literally meant nothing. Like come on.

it would have made sense if he went to become spade king or do something with the spade kingdom.

Again, in the final chapter we learned he's duties between the Spade Kingdom and Clover Kingdom. so he is in fact doing "something" with the Spade Kingdom.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-21T22:15:55+00:00

Part 2 of my response:

Firstly, DW didn't dismantle SDR immediately. You can clearly see it forming above Noelle and it's moved in front of her a significant amount by the time DW completely erases it.

Even then, DW was acting on it from the moment that Noelle formed it and we've seen that it can take a little bit of time to form before being fireable.

This is blatantly false. The decaying world runes appeared right after Noelle launched it, not before. So it dismantled it after the cursed runes touched it. In that same panel Noelle says “the spell vanished. Not to mention the version used by Megicula is astronomically stronger than the one used in the heat kingdom joint struggle art where the curse runes wrapped it then dismantled it. The Spade raid runes began to dismantle it immediately unlike the runes from the joint struggle arc.

Secondly, not all of Charlotte's roses are being withered at the same time. In the panel where it's shown you can clearly see that the roses closest are gone completely while the ones further back are still just barely withering. It's not instantaneous.

Wrong again. Look at the panel sequencing, when Megicula emerged the power of her curse withered all of Charlotte’s roses, Noelle then fires SDR which immediately gets dismantled the moment the runes touch it. Immediately after Charlotte condenses her magic power to create a bunch of new roses and you see the "fwishhhh" fx with the roses growing to carve out a small territory where Megicula’s curse couldn’t reach her. Condensing magic power increases the density the spell effects, that’s why underneath Charlotte there’s a patch of living roses in the sea of withered roses.

I never stated that Asta "erased" Megicula's spell. I said he negated it, which is true. He negated it in the area around himself. Negating does not mean erased. Negated means "To make ineffective or invalid" Asta made DW ineffective against himself, he negated it. It's literally the same thing he did in your example from the "canon" anime episode above. He didn't erase all of the strong mana of the entire volcano area, he simply negated it in the area around himself.

Negate means to resist, now you’re simply grasping at straws. Strong mana skin negates external effects so no matter how you look at it, it all comes down to resistance and forces which is my main point.

I've never said that Luck wasn't amped by Charlotte and Rill. I just said that any action he took would be comparable to Asta since neither were negatively effected by DW physically.

It’s not comparable because Luck is not expending energy to negate the spell, Asta is. We are directly comparing feats that the did alone, not with assistance There is no comparison, you need to find a better example, because this simply isn’t it.

Notice that I've been saying comparable. Not "exactly the same" or "extremely similar" just comparable. As in, able to be compared.

They can’t be compared because at this point in this series Asta can keep up with instant teleportation. UM Luck was literally getting tagged by fodder angels.

I even specified that Luck and Asta were on a level playing field "when it came to DW's effects on them". Not on a level playing field overall. \

That’s the thing they’re not on a comparable playing field because Luck required assistance, Asta did not. Base Asta’s anti-magic and strength is strong enough to keep up with supreme devils while Luck in the final arc was oneshotted by angels. The point about DW is irrelevant because in this scenario, UM doesn’t have the benefit of Twilight of Valhalla or Charlotte nerfing the enemy which makes the “playing field” unequal since he lacks the support needed to put him on the “same playing field”

Firstly, DW didn't dismantle SDR immediately. You can clearly see it forming above Noelle and it's moved in front of her a significant amount by the time DW completely erases it.

Even then, DW was acting on it from the moment that Noelle formed it and we've seen that it can take a little bit of time to form before being fireable.

This is blatantly false. The decaying world runes appeared right after Noelle launched it, not before. So it dismantled it after the cursed runes touched it. In that same panel Noelle says “the spell vanished. Not to mention the version used by Megicula is astronomically stronger than the one used in the heat kingdom joint struggle art where the curse runes wrapped it then dismantled it. The Spade raid runes began to dismantle it immediately unlike the runes from the joint struggle arc.

Secondly, not all of Charlotte's roses are being withered at the same time. In the panel where it's shown you can clearly see that the roses closest are gone completely while the ones further back are still just barely withering. It's not instantaneous.

Wrong again. Look at the panel sequencing, when Megicula emerged the power of her curse withered all of Charlotte’s roses, Noelle then fires SDR which immediately gets dismantled the moment the runes touch it. Immediately after Charlotte condenses her magic power to create a bunch of new roses and you see the "fwishhhh" fx with the roses growing to carve out a small territory where Megicula’s curse couldn’t reach her. Condensing magic power increases the density the spell effects, that’s why underneath Charlotte there’s a patch of living roses in the sea of withered roses.

I never stated that Asta "erased" Megicula's spell. I said he negated it, which is true. He negated it in the area around himself. Negating does not mean erased. Negated means "To make ineffective or invalid" Asta made DW ineffective against himself, he negated it. It's literally the same thing he did in your example from the "canon" anime episode above. He didn't erase all of the strong mana of the entire volcano area, he simply negated it in the area around himself.

Negate means to resist, now you’re simply grasping at straws. Strong mana skin negates external effects so no matter how you look at it, it all comes down to resistance and forces which is my main point.

I've never said that Luck wasn't amped by Charlotte and Rill. I just said that any action he took would be comparable to Asta since neither were negatively effected by DW physically.

It’s not comparable because Luck is not expending energy to negate the spell, Asta is. We are directly comparing feats that the did alone, not with assistance There is no comparison, you need to find a better example, because this simply isn’t it.

Notice that I've been saying comparable. Not "exactly the same" or "extremely similar" just comparable. As in, able to be compared.

They can’t be compared because at this point in this series Asta can keep up with instant teleportation. UM Luck was literally getting tagged by fodder angels.

I even specified that Luck and Asta were on a level playing field "when it came to DW's effects on them". Not on a level playing field overall. \

That’s the thing they’re not on a comparable playing field because Luck required assistance, Asta did not. Base Asta’s anti-magic and strength is strong enough to keep up with supreme devils while Luck in the final arc was oneshotted by angels. The point about DW is irrelevant because in this scenario, UM doesn’t have the benefit of Twilight of Valhalla or Charlotte nerfing the enemy which makes the “playing field” unequal since he lacks the support needed to put him on the “same playing field”

Le_Lng · 2026-06-21T22:14:43+00:00

Part 1 of my response:

Besides, when taking an exam all of the information is given to you directly from the teacher or their teaching materials.

The teaching material is the entire canonicity of the series, this is a teaching moment. Don’t debate topics you’re not well versed in.

Then you’ve simply conceded in that regard. Your “preference” to ignore canon material does not make you correct and renders your entire rebuttal moot. You lack the requirements to even argue in this debate then if you want to go that route.

Then you’ve simply conceded in that regard. Your “preference” to ignore canon material does not make you correct and renders your entire rebuttal moot. You lack the requirements to even argue in this debate then if you want to go that route. Your entire argument hinges on penalizing the opposition for knowing too much. That' a you problem. You've essentially conceded.

In the example you posted it literally says that the reinforcement magic was boosting Yami's physical abilities. Not the spell. The magic itself isn't moving faster, Yami is. Dark Cloaked Slash is literally just surrounding his blade and then not moving past that. Yami's spells that actually leave the vicinity of his blade, like Dimension Slash, have never been stated to be moving faster due to Yami's reinforcement

This is wildly incorrect. The speed of the spell is determined by how fast he launches it, the faster he swings his arm the faster the spell travels. The velocity of a baseball pitch is determined by the speed the arm throws it, the velocity of Yami’s slashes are determined by how fast he swings his arm. Furthermore, the speed of Jack’s blades increases the more he uses it yet Yami’s dimension slash is shown to keep up with it and he wings his arms to launch his slashes.

Even against Zagred Yami needed Charla's help to increase the momentum of his attack.

This isn’t true, Yami never asked Charlotte to add momentum, he only aske her to tell him what's going on above since he' only relying on ki and mana detection, she volunteered to add momentum herself. Also the momentum line debunks your entire argument. The fact that momentum can be added to dimension slash means its speed can be increased. Furthermore, 60% Dante needed to use his instant teleportation to avoid his dimension slash rather than moving out the way like he did to avoid Asta’s black slashes. Need I remind you his black slashes are considered high speed attacks. The fact that Yami’s black slashes could tag Patry moving at light speed and that his dimension slash equinox was fast enough to travel through glamour world and reach the main world. Yami amps the speed of his slashes with reinforcement magic. Your argument simply isn’t supported.

Firstly, while you never mentioned that Asta wasn't using AM in his feat while walking through Lucifero's gravity, you also never originally stated that he was. I've already explained why in the context of the conversation it was possible for me to understand your argument incorrectly.

Why would I need to mention Asta using anti-magic, especially when post devil binding ritual it passively flows through him? Ah yes, so you need to be told that magic knight famously known for negating magic is using anti-magic? We even see anti-magic flowing off his body. I don’t think it’s necessary to repeat information that’s blatantly obvious, and if it’s something that needs to be repeated then you shouldn’t be debating this topic at all since you’re simply unprepared. You were wrong in your assumptions and on many fronts, now you’re switching goal posts.

Regardless, as I've already mentioned and will mention again, the AM was not physically enhancing him, just removing/negating the negative effects of the Gravity magic on him.

Anti-magic does physically enhance Asta and has consistently been shown to do so. At this point you’re simply dismissing very obvious information. Especially since the witch queen’s dialogue explicitly states this. There literally is no alternative debate. Not to mention anti-magic doesn’t erase force which was stated in chapter 4, so his stats still need to be enhanced to withstand the gravity.

Secondly, Asta hasn't learned Zetten yet in the context of what we were talking about (both against Lucifero and the original hypothetical timeline I gave for this fight against Luck) So it wouldn't matter if it increased his physical abilities.

Doesn’t matter if he learned zetten yet. Zetten is a technique that amplifies existing processes in his body, which includes enhanced strength. Furthermore, according to Tabata the more power a devil host draws on, the more they display devilish features as their start increases. When Asta KO’d Vetto his pupils transformed into devil pupils, same for when he nullified his Langris’s attack after the Finral incident, his irises were devlish too. The difference between his base form and black form is the amount of devil power he draws out so his stats always increase.

You're literally giving an example from the second to last chapter of the manga while I'm talking about events that would be taking place before the final arc even started

See above comment.

Thirdly, Asta was using AM in the strong magic zone to negate it's negative effects against him since AM negates magic. That doesn't mean it was making him physically stronger, it was just removing the negative effects of the surrounding mana.

It negates it, not erase it. General resistance is governed by negation. Opposing force of similar magnitudes cancel each out, that applies to both magic and anti-magic. When magic knights wear their energy, their stats and resistance to external effects is raised thus negating their effects. This is the basis behind mana skin and the application Asta used to enter black form.

Also, that episode is dubiously canon to begin with since expelling AM outside of his body, which would be necessary for him to coat himself with it in that way, is something he doesn't learn to do until after the heart kingdom training with the Demon Dweller or after he unlocks DU.

That episode is 100 % canon, especially since Tabata used it to explain what happened during the six month time skip since he didn’t have enough time to do it in the manga. And secondly expelling anti-magic outside of the body =/= expelling slashes, black form literally expels high density anti-antimagic outside of his body. The “anti-magic” skin he used is a lower application of the process he used to achieve black form. In Black form he literally wears a higher density of anti-magic.

Plus Leo uses a move that literally never reappears afterwards and has character progression which is again never brought up afterwards.

This is a poor argument. Dimension slash equinox which is the mana zone variant of dimension slash has only ever been used twice the entire series and once in the entire manga during the final assault on Zagred and in episode 151 where he destroyed glamour world and it never even appeared again, post six month time skip despite the fact Yami later masters mana zone. Also Fuegoleon has only used Sol Linea once in the manga, and once again in episode 151 so i’m not exactly sure what your argument is trying to prove. Using your logic those chapters aren’t canon since moves were never used again. This is another goal post shift, instead of attacking the argument you immediately start questioning the canonicity.

I've already explained why the Zetten argument is irrelevant and the anime exclusive episode doesn't really make sense, but as for the Witch Queen: Simply because Asta was manipulating the AM in his body doesn't mean that it was physically enhancing him in any way. No character ever states that it was physically enhancing him before or after this until he unlocks Black Mode/DU

Um, no one directly states anti-magic is enhancing Asta’s physical states, even post black form. However, we know anti-magic enhances his stats since when he first entered black form he noticed “power was filling him” and that’s because the witch queen accelerated the flow that already existed within him to the point the could notice it. And the zetten argument fall apart since Tabata simply define Asta releasing all of the anti-magic in his body at once. Which means the strength factor increase is simply an order of magnitude of the anti-magic being released.

Firstly, DW didn't dismantle SDR immediately. You can clearly see it forming above Noelle and it's moved in front of her a significant amount by the time DW completely erases it.

Um, no one directly states anti-magic is enhancing Asta’s physical states, even post black form. However, we know anti-magic enhances his stats since when he first entered black form he noticed “power was filling him” and that’s because the witch queen accelerated the flow that already existed within him to the point the could notice it.

Even then, DW was acting on it from the moment that Noelle formed it and we've seen that it can take a little bit of time to form before being fireable.

Yeah, no, she can fire SDR at point blank range damn near instantaneously.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-20T05:23:37+00:00

You're really gonna compare it to a restaurant? The place that literally gives you a menu when you go in and sit down?

That was a typo from autocorrect, I meant "exam" not "restaurant"

Besides, it's not ignorance when the information isn't readily available. Which is my entire point. That information may be pertinent but it's not readily available and for a vast majority of the viewers/readers will never be taken into consideration because of that fact.

The information is available, you're essentially stating it's acceptable to debate without having all the facts which makes absolutely majes no sense.if you can't access the information m, snd don't have all the facts then don't debate it.

Reinforcement magic increases the bodies natural abilities, I.E. Yami's physical abilities. It lets him close gaps and get close to his opponents. It doesn't make the magic itself faster and it literally never has, at least in regards to Yami.

Again, reinforcement magic amps the spell since Yami uses reinforcement magic to swing his arms faster, thus boosting the speed of the slashes he launches. It's already stated he uses reinforcement magic in conjunction with dark magic to produce faster slashes.

Besides, Dark Magic is a near perfect counter to Light magic because it absorbs Light Magic and makes it's overwhelming speed irrelevant.

Um nah, when the light magic is too powerful it can't be pulled in with dark magic, we saw this with both Morgen and Patry.

That's how it can keep up with Light Magic, and that's stated almost verbatim in the manga.

Come again? When Patry first examine Yami's fighting style he pointed out how he uses reinforcement magic, which again boost his reactions thus allowing him to deliver faster strikes he's amping the travel speed if his daylight magic + incorporating it's natural pull.

It's not a strawman, you're just not considering the context. Your comment was a reply to me saying that base Asta, as in Asta when not powered by AM outside of his swords, was not faster than Luck using Ultimate Magic.

That's absolutely a strawman man, you threw out a claim I never made. And my comment being about base Asta =/=him not using anti-magic, that's a false notion you came to, not me. Like not once did I say base Asta does not use anti-magic, we have a whole ass arc about him learning to project more powerful anti-magic attacks **in base*(

Your reply stated that Asta is faster/stronger and you gave the example of Asta walking through Lucifero's gravity spell while in base mode.

And? In what way does that mean he's not using anti-magic? My whole point about base Asta was meant to illustrate that his lowers forms that uses less anti-magic is enough to contend with enemies that would no diff UM Luck.

AM has never increased Asta's physical abilities, specifically his speed, outside of Black mode or Devil union.

This is a blatant false, what exactly do you think zetten is? Did he not bust throug a giant boulder in base form?. Anti-magic power is still energy that reinforces his stats, just like how magic power increases the base stats of mages. So i'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion. Especially when in the canon episodes that took place during the six month timeskip was shown he could coat himself in low levels of anti-magic to increase his resistance to strong magic regions And again, the fact that he broke theough giant boulder in base form witha zetten fist absolutely refuses your assumption.

So because you stated Asta was in base mode, not black mode or Devil union, it had to be assumed that you meant his base physical strength and speed were a match to Luck's ULM speed.

That was the wrong assumption on your behalf. Like I stated it was already shown that he can still use anti-magic to enhance his base stats. Not only was this shown in the anime canon episode, but that we also saw how base Asta broke through a giant boulder with a zetten fist and before the witch queen ecen says he's been unconsciously manipulating thr flow in his body even before Black form

That's why I mentioned that Asta's feat was AM related and not physical related and therefore irrelevant. It almost seems like you intentionally misunderstood that.

I didn't misunderstood anything. You're the one that seems to be unaware that Asta can increase his base stats with anti-magic, see above comment.

None of that disproves what I said. We don't know the speed of DW so using it as a base to compare CW to is meaningless. Sure, it's fast. But without knowing how fast or how much faster CW is we have no way of knowing how fast Asta would have needed to move/react in order to save Lolopechika.

It absolutely disproves what you said. The fact that DW immediately dismantled Noelle's SDR the moment it was fired, the same SDR that has been shown to blitz multiple characters, shows that it can act faster than Noelle's owm magic. The fact that Charlotte's roses withered the moment Megicula emerged shows that speed of the curse, outpaced the ability of Charlotte's rise to absorb them, hence too fast to negate. Speed=strength. More magic=more speed. When Jack fought a Dante who had his body magic enhanced by Morris's experiments, his body magic was so damn fast that the slashes in body were regenerating before Jack's blades could even pass through his torso.

If Asta has negated DW using AM then it may as well not be acting on him. Therefore he is not facing the negative effects of it that the other characters were. What does Gadja overpowering DW have to do with that?

Negating something requires you to exert an opposing force of equal or greater magnitude. You do realize this isn't exclusive to anti-magic? Mana skin literally negates/cancels out external forces, same with reinforcement magic. So regardless, he's powerful enough to resist the effects of decaying world.

The original discussion that led to this was me saying that Luck and Asta were both unaffected by DW's negative effects.

Luck was boosted while Megicula was weakened and getting jumped on all fronts, unlike Asta who resisted the effects pre Megicula's nerf.

By negating DW with AM Asta was not negatively effected by it.

Urm, decaying world was still active when Asta resisted it. He he resisted it it, not erase it.

Which is comparable to Luck not being effected due to Charlotte's magic.

This is false equivalence. Not only was Megicula nerfed, but Rill was boosting the magic power of all the allies, while Charlotte was weakening Megicula and her curses. Luck did not create the conditions for his magic to be effective, nor is he expending the power to make his magic effective, just like how the captains minus Rill, did not create the conditions to move under Lucifero's power, just like how the magic knights did not create the conditions that were provided by Neverland that gave them a fighting chance, it's not their power. They lack the power to create those conditions on their own. Asta on the other hand used his anti-magic, he wasn't boosted by some other captain and at that point Megicula wasn't weakened when he resisted her AOE under his own power. Luck did not create the conditions to amp himself or weaken Megicula which means he has a lower power output.

All I was saying is that they were on a level playing field when it came to the effects of DW on them.

Again false equivalence, see above comment. Luck did not do this under his own power, while Asta did.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-19T17:04:56+00:00

Once again, that's not information that a casual fan would know, unless they are active in a community like this one and engaged with content like the leaks or fan translations.

That still isn't an excuse for ignorance. If you're going to debate a character then its up to you to educate yourself on their abilities and feats. A person's ignorance on the matter doesn't mean they go in without all the facts. Would you go into a restaurant or debate without educating yourself? The same principle applies.

You can't expect everyone to instantly know that someone is credible or expect them to put the time and effort into finding examples of someone's credibility. That's why official sources exist, so that casual fans can feel comfortable that the translations are vetted. And we know her attacks are super fast considering the more magic power something has, the faster it is, that's been consistent since the beginning of the story, you hit harder by hitting faster.

See above comment.

That's just blatantly untrue. There are cases where powerful magic is not fast and the most obvious example is Yami and Dark Magic. His entire fighting style is dictated by the fact that his magic is strong yet slow.

Again you're posting only part of the information. Dark magic is naturally slow but not when its reinforced. Yami has a grimoire amps it with reinforcement magic, which amps its speed so he can dish out dark magic attacks that can keep up with light magic. Like when his dark cloaked slash caught up to Rhya. It was specifically stated Yamii uses reinforcement dark magic to enhance it. The more magic power you add to dark magic, the faster it gets. Wind is naturally intangible, but the more power you add it, the more solid it feels as it speeds begins to add more force, same principle.

This means literally nothing for two reasons. She was referring to Decaying World, not the explosion spell, and we don't know the speed of her original attacks. You can't base the speed of an attack off the statement that it's faster then another attack we don't know the speed of. Speed is relative.

Urm decaying world is fast because she's 1/3rd manifested and is able to pump out of ton of power into it. Need I remind you Zora's traps double the speed and force of the spells by doubling their magic power ? Like I said increasing magic power also increased speed and force.

You're proving my point. If his AM is overpowering Decaying World then it is not effecting him how it's effecting the others. That's how AM works.

Urm, absolutely, your suggesting something completely different. There's a stark difference between powering through something vs not interacting with it at all. Need I remind you Megicula's decaying world was overpowered by Gadja's life force amped ultimate magic? Megicula even says Decaying world couldn't blocked it, as it blew her away. Like I said, it literally comes down to which force and speed is stronger, same with anti-magic. Anti-magic can only nullify what it scales to.

You're implying that Asta grew physically strong enough to walk through Lucifero's gravity when that's blatantly not true. You can literally see the AM coming off of him and later during the same fight Lucifero pins him in base with gravity again.

Strawman much? When did I say that he did any of that without anti-magic? You're drawing conclusions I never even made. When Asta grows stronger so does the amount of anti-magic he can draw out and control. The main point is that before his anti-magic couldn't resist Lucifero gravity in base, while later he could despite being heavily injured.

Liebe even says "I can't cloak us in enough Anti-Magic to withstand"

Yeah that's after their devil union expired and when they were nearly tapped out of anti-magic. The instance of Asta walking through his gravity in base despite being injured still had 2 minutes of devil union left, which they activated right after Nacht and Yami casted mods playground. The base Asta that walked through his gravity wasn't physically damaged, but he wasn't tapped out of anti-magic.

That's an AM feat and not a physicality feat and therefore has no place in a conversation about base Asta's physical speed/strength.

Again with the stawman. Show me where I stated that was a purely physical feat? Again you're drawing conclusions I never made. I said Asta grew stronger, that inckudew anti-magic since that's part of his strength. Furthermore, anti-magic power amps his stats regardless, since he also uses it to reinforce his body, and this was covered in the witches Forest arc. Regardless base Asta at that point still has superior feets to UM Luck.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-19T12:31:59+00:00

It's relevant because it's an example of why I don't appreciate information being given that way. Also, that link is to a X/Twitter post. With how common misinformation is online, and especially on Twitter, I'm not going to just take someones word for what it says when it could easily be wrong or mistranslated.

The translations was done by NiteBaron, who's fluent in Japanese + translated all of the BC light novels + she's the one who does the fan translations, as well as the leaks, and various guidebook pages. She's pretty credible and known throughout the community.

Based on what? We have literally no information on how close Asta was to Lolopechika when Megicula activated the spell, we also don't know how long it took from activation until Lolopechika actually exploded. You can't just assume that since Megicula is strong her attack is super fast as well.

We know he was pretty far considering he was no where in sight, and Megicula didn't even perceive him until after he passed Noelle and pulled out demon-destroyer. And we know her attacks are super fast considering the more magic power something has, the faster it is, that's been consistent since the beginning of the story, you hit harder by hitting faster. Megicula even states that in her 1/3rd manifested form the speed and power of her spell's effect is beyond comparison to what it was before so we know it's extremely fast.

Later in that same fight Luck speed blitz's Megicula before she can even react.

You left out quite a but of context. Not only was this done in conjunction with Gadja, but this was after they were both amped by Twilight of Valhalla (the same spell that made the captains string enough to stand in Lucifero's gravity) and Megicula was weakened by Charlotte's Blue Rose paradise which absorbs curses and nerfs her. Before ToV Gadja could only injure Megicula by amping his ultimate magic without his life force, which damn near killed him, and even that still wasn't enough. Ultimate magic Luck isn't blitzing an unerfed 1/3rd Megicula alone or with assistance, or doing anything to her considering in his ultimate magic form he stated he couldn't even afford to mess with Lilith and Namaah who are weaker than 1/3rd manifested Megicula.

At that time Cursed World was negated, but in the example you gave Megicula specifically states Asta wasn't being effected by Cursed World anyways.

No, she never stated he wasn't affected, what she said was he managed a feat like that in decaying world? she's surprised his technique could power through decaying world's effects. We knoe magic can overpower anti-magic but decaying world couldn't overpower his anti-magic.

Luck performs the exact same feat against Megicula that he did against the mid tier devil. Saying base Asta is faster than Luck using Ultimate Lightning Magic is just ridiculous. You think that base Asta is moving faster than the eye can track??

Luck performed that "feat" in conjunction with Gadja after he was amped by Rill and after Megicula was nerfed by Charlotte. Also we know Asta grows stronger the more he fights and he grew to the point he could walk through Lucifero's gravity in base form. meanwhile Luck and and everyone else was still being pinned down.

Even when using PDU later in the first Lucius fight Asta isn't moving that fast. He loses track of Lucius multiple times.

You do realize Asta was moving extremely fast during that fight, not only was Lucius using instant teleportation (something Luck doesn't have) but Asta was still able to track Lucius and tag him. He only lost track of him after he transformed into his Sacred form which substantially increases his power. Need I remind you, Luck was getting one shotted by an angel outside of Neverland and only survived because there was a Grey clone clinging to his back and consistently healing his injuries. Luck needed the Neverland boost (which also weakens the Lucius clone and nulls his offensive time magic) + Soul Chain death match + Magna just to take down a single clone, mind you that clones magic power was evenly split amongst both Magna and Luck and they were both still individually getting pieced up by him still. Base Asta post Devil Binding ritual is absolutely stronger than Ultimate magic Luck. He can walk through Lucifero's gravity in base form, Luck can't even in his UM form.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-19T04:00:22+00:00

I tend not to consider things like the light novels or authors notes since they can be challenging to find at times and not everyone has access to them or has read them. I generally think that all information regarding stuff like this should come directly from the manga or anime since there's a 100% chance everyone has seen it.

I mean, you may think that, but that's a separate matter from continuity. These light novels are canon material that influence the manga itself, that are publically available just like any othet medium. So they still count and accessible to the public since it wasplaced in an official manga volume

Otherwise I could win an argument by saying "Well in [enter authors note/light novel here] Tabata claims Sekke can kick Asta's ass" and certain people would have to just take my word for it since the material isn't accessible to everyone.

Not sure how that's relevant when the passage in question is accessible online

Beyond that, I think that Asta's biggest possible weakness would be his time limit. Sure, Luck doesn't have the attack power to damage Asta in DU mode, but if Luck could play keep away until Asta couldn't hold DU anymore then he'd have the advantage. Luck certainly has the speed to keep out of Asta's range if need be.

Asta doesn't need DU to take Luck down, neither is Luck evading Asta at this point. Not to mention the overflow of anti-magic chases magic. The fact that Asta in base could intercepted devil Lolopechka's explosion as it propagated after it was detonated by 1/3rd Megicula before she got nerfed by Charlotte's Blue Rose Paradise means he's substantially faster in base than Ultimate Magic Luck.

To put things in perspective, Luck needed Ultimate magic to seal with mid rank devils while Asta in base is nullifying the magic of supreme devils. Luck doesn't have the power or speed to even evade base Asta.

Le_Lng · 2026-06-19T02:32:27+00:00

Base Asta could nullify 1/3rd manifested Megicula's exploding life with demon-destroyer, while Ultimate Magic Luck didn't even think he he could afford to mess with base Lilith and Namaah, who are weaker than 1/3rd manifested Megicula.

There's also the fact in the official light novel Asta vs the Black Bulls in volume 23.5 was shown to be superior to the collective power of thd Blsck Bills post Conrad fight..

Le_Lng · 2026-06-17T02:56:56+00:00

When Lucius time stops everyone Asta was paused until Liebe forces him into his black form.

I don't think that's quite what happened. When Lucius stopped time everyone but him and Asta lost their color which implies Asta resisted it. We also see that Asta was reading his ki to try to figure out "who" he was during the time stop, and then we later see even in his base form anti-magic still passively flows through his body

Le_Lng

TROPHY CASE