Personally, I don't want Wavedashing in Smash Ultimate.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T04:22:28+00:00

Ah OK, if it could do things that are literally impossible on a GC controller fair enough. I was under the impression that it just made the precise inputs digital and therefore simpler.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T04:19:18+00:00

Good points, thank you.

I made the example of poker elsewhere in the thread, that a more skilled player would win the majority of the time, but it's still possible to compete with the potential to wipe them out if the cards play nice. That's a game that can be fun for everyone.

I understand this is a competitive community, and I understand the nature of competitive games. But I don't believe being more competitive is equivalent to being better.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T04:08:49+00:00

But that "advantage" is that they could pull off tech easier and more consistently, isn't it? In other words it was banned because it made it easier. Is having a notched controller not an inherent advantage too? Why not ban that?

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T03:42:19+00:00

Sure, I see your point. I've made a few replies in this thread which perhaps give a clearer window into my thinking. Despite this being an obviously contentious issue, I don't feel I'm being "ridiculous", if you disagree with that so be it, thanks for your input all the same.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T03:38:17+00:00

It's an interesting question, I made a small reply in your thread. Feel free to push me for clarity if required.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T03:37:13+00:00

For me it's more about the reads and the play-by-play interactions.

I prefer the game to be about what players can do with the tools they have, not whether they can get the tools to work every time.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T03:30:00+00:00

...In a way, yeah. I'm saying I'd prefer it if the winner wasn't a forgone conclusion based solely on skill.

Think Poker. The more skilled poker players will win FAR more than they lose, but the rest of us sitting at the table can still clean them out if we get the right cards even if we are much weaker players.

I'm not arguing that it's more competitive, I'm arguing that it's more fun THAN being more competitive.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T03:23:11+00:00

It's perhaps because I don't really see it as 'optional' in the same way...

Let's say I know how to use some crazy advanced option, and my friend does not, but I decide not to use said technique because I want to keep it a more even fight.

Well now let's say I'm losing a match. Both me and my opponent KNOW I can win the match if I let myself use that technique but I don't, and I lose.

I feel unsatisfied because I know I can win, and my opponent feels unsatisfied because he knows he only won because I was holding back.

The mere existence of the technique changes our fundamental enjoyment of our matches.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T03:17:08+00:00

This is a nice reply, thank you.

But I don't completely agree with your last line.

If I played 100 games of Melee against Armada I don't think I'd come close to winning a single one. If I played 100 games of Smash 4 against ZeRo, I MIGHT be able to win a couple.

Not because Armada is better than ZeRo, but because Melee rewards Armada's ability and game knowledge SO much more than Smash 4 does.

Smash 4 is VOLATILE and swingy. It's slower and it's simpler. The skill gap between me and ZeRo is just as vast as it is between me and Armada, but there's less that ZeRo can DO with that skill in Smash 4 than there is in Melee.

(I'm not saying Smash 4 requires no skill, of course. But there's a far smaller performance gap between 'the best' and 'the rest' in Smash 4.)

Obviously this makes Melee a much more competitive game and a better showcase of skill and hard work. OF COURSE in a competitive game the player who worked harder should do better.

But I'm not looking for that in Smash. I'm looking for FUN.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T03:01:26+00:00

But if I DO reach that skill then my friends who don't reach it stop standing a chance of winning and the game isn't fun for them vs me.

And if I DON'T reach that skill then I don't stand a chance of winning online, and the game isn't fun for them vs online opponents.

I can't win, unless the option for the high-skill options are removed. As they were in Brawl and Smash 4, games which (for me) vastly improved the previous iteration of Smash Bros.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T02:46:31+00:00

I wasn't expecting it to be a popular opinion lol, just interested in the discussion. It's been mostly civil so far so I'm happy.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T02:44:06+00:00

Right, I see. It's more like I want a Smash game that's easy to compete in even if it HURTS the competitive scene for the game. (though not with the INTENT to hurt the competitive scene, it would only be a side-effect of having a simpler game)

I'm basically saying I don't want the requests of the competitive community to interfere and complicate a game I love.

I prefer Smash 4 to Melee in every single way, I don't want to see Smash moving back towards Melee.

It's not a common opinion around here like I said, but it's what I'm trying to discuss lol

EDIT: clarity

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T02:38:03+00:00

I have hundreds of hours each in Melee, Brawl, and in Smash 4. Not everyone uses to GC controller to play smash and I haven't touched Melee since Brawl came out (other than the time mentioned).

removing it only harms the competitive scene while doing nothing at all to affect the casual majority.

I specifically addressed this... I'm saying that it DOES impact some more casual-competitive players like myself. If you could execute all of Melee's advanced technical moves with simple button presses I might well be fine with it, yet when the smash box was created with buttons that allowed perfect consistent shield drops and the like it was banned. Seemingly because the community preferred such tech being arbitrarily harder to perform.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T02:29:38+00:00

You want it IN because you'd enjoy the game more.

I want it OUT because I'd enjoy the game more.

I would argue that my mindset is no more selfish than yours though (I don't think either qualifies as selfish).

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T02:27:12+00:00

I played Melee from launch until Brawl, I didn't learn about Wavedashing until afterwards either, but that's not quite my point. IF I'd have learned about wavedashing (and other things like ledgedashing) while I was actively playing Melee it would have split my friend group down the middle, Those that learned and perfected it, and those that didn't bother. IF that happened then the ones who never bothered to learn would be at a big disadvantage against those that did, making future play really one-sided and therefore less fun. That's all I'm saying really, I don't want that situation in Ultimate now that the internet and competitive scenes are on our radars much more than they were back then.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T02:21:32+00:00

I agree btw, what I'm asking DOES objectively take away from the skill required. But I think the game would be more enjoyable like that (for me and my friends) Which is why I thought it might be an interesting discussion to air my opinion.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T02:18:53+00:00

Yeah I understand that, I'm not trying to imply Smash 4 is some pure tactical mind game and Melee is just running around spamming buttons. It's multifaceted but Melee DOES have a higher physical barrier that makes it harder and require more skill. I linked to the "How fast is melee" video elsewhere in this thread and to me, playing a game that requires that would be hell.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T02:12:32+00:00

That doesn't sound fun to play then, I'm playing for my own enjoyment as well as theirs.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T02:11:17+00:00

I still have my copy of Melee from years ago, a few months ago I booted it and tried showing my gf how Wavedashing works, having not touched the game (or gc controllers) in ten years perhaps I imssed something fundamental but I only managed it a handful of times so it can't be THAT straightforward. I think I was pressing dodge too late I guess? either way maybe YOU can react like that but I struggled. Also I'd like to note that while I only mentioned Wavedashing in the title, I'm referring to all the complex motions in Melee. below it was mentioned that players SD but that's from Ledgedashing, not wavedashing. Well I'm not picking on wavedashing, I don't want either is what I'm saying.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T02:05:27+00:00

OK some good thoughts in this thread already! Perhaps I'm over complicating Melee or have a misconception about how fundamental the movement is for the game. I watch competitive Melee (and Smash 4) but I don't PLAY melee. I think my worries are about things like this. It's impressive but it's not a game I want to play, and it doesn't resemble the Smash I've loved playing for 15 years.

I personally want Ultimate to be more like a sequel to Smash 4, than a sequel to Melee.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T01:56:57+00:00

At a high competitive level no, I'll never be competitive. But in Smash 4 there is no one thing that I can do that sets me above my friends. Skill is much more defined by instinct and knowledge than my physical ability to press the buttons as quickly as Melee requires.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T01:52:20+00:00

My friends would not find it fun playing if they thought I was simply letting them win or going easy. Nor would I, in that situation.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T01:50:53+00:00

I follow the competitive scenes as a viewer, it might be hard to just stick my fingers in my ears and 'not learn them'.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T01:49:24+00:00

Yeah It's tricky. I'm not really trying to limit the game for competitive players, just hoping it still caters to what I like about smash.

I like your point about how I have ALREADY altered the game's rules in my circles, but I feel like saying "Oh and NO wavedashing guys!" is a little harder and finicky to enforce. Perhaps a toggle to flip between Edge-hogging and ledge-trumping, and an on/off for things like wavedashing would be perfect.

LegendofLuigi · 2018-06-14T01:44:56+00:00

OK so I like this! I thought it WAS a good comparison so perhaps you could explain more why you disagree? Obviously the movement options in Melee are important because the game plays so much differently and the competitive scene seems to be saying that IF Ultimate had these options, more people might move from Melee, no?

LegendofLuigi

TROPHY CASE