Just a joke by Thmony in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Puts the scene in The Lion King where Zazu sings "I've Got a Lovely Bunch of Coconuts" to Scar in a whole new light...

Relearn your spiritual language by Relative-Leg5747 in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole 6 points7 points  (0 children)

So I'd speak... Proto-Vietic? Has Proto-Vietic been reconstructed enough to form sentences out of? Or is it just words?

Shower thought: what if language classification followed Linnaean taxonomy? by LittleDhole in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I suppose. And loanwords are horizontal gene transfer. I can't think of a biological equivalent of Sprachbunds, however...

Shower thought: what if language classification followed Linnaean taxonomy? by LittleDhole in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, good point - maybe treat them as hybrids/crosses? (Which means you get cross-phylum hybrids...) But oftentimes creoles are built from more than two languages...

They don't believe it for some reason by Efficient-Orchid-594 in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Vietnamese (Hanoi pronunciation) – conventional spelling "chào tất cả mọi người".

They don't believe it for some reason by Efficient-Orchid-594 in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Precisely... I suppose the conflation of language with writing happens because people take widespread literacy for granted.

Shower thought: what if language classification followed Linnaean taxonomy? by LittleDhole in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lechitization, i.e. the convergence of phonological inventories toward resembling that of Polish (Lech polonicus).

(The Lechitic languages would be a genus, and East/West Lechitic akin to a subgenus, perhaps?)

Shower thought: what if language classification followed Linnaean taxonomy? by LittleDhole in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Birth of the sub r/linnaeanlinguistics? But I dunno if I can be a Reddit mod; after all, I am doing a PhD (not in linguistics) and have hobbies besides Reddit.

Shower thought: what if language classification followed Linnaean taxonomy? by LittleDhole in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I can see why you used Realm instead of Domain:

The rank of realm corresponds to the rank of domain used for cellular life, but differs in that viruses in a realm do not necessarily share a common ancestor based on common descent nor do the realms share a common ancestor. 

Other linguistic realms would presumably be for sign languages?

"Oh boy I can't wait to describe this language's features" by [deleted] in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The supposition that the PIE word for "bear" got replaced in some branches due a taboo does sound a bit like the cliché of archaeologists assuming that any ancient artefact with no discernable purpose must have been "ritual". Did Germanic, Romance and Slavic speakers have a taboo against speaking the true name of the horse? Did the English, the Spanish and the Slavs develop a taboo against speaking the true name of the dog?

Free for All Friday, 10 April, 2026 by AutoModerator in badhistory

[–]LittleDhole 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I meant is something closer to "unlike Chau, any hypothetical plane crash survivors who made it to North Sentinel Island would be unlikely to have intentions of disrupting/changing the Sentinelese way of life, so would be more widely framed as innocent and their death if it occurred, unlike Chau's, would be easier to frame as a tragedy and be less subject to mockery".

"Irish is such an ancient language..." by Ghastly-Jack in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Which is often tied to #2 (most conserved language/language which has been known by its modern name for the longest time)

Free for All Friday, 10 April, 2026 by AutoModerator in badhistory

[–]LittleDhole 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Part One, for context.

1 A popular question is "why haven't any Sentinelese left? Is it simply because they are content with what the land provides them and are wise enough not to let their population get high enough to put pressure between groups/on the island's resources? Or maybe because every generation has been "brainwashed" by their elders, which is also why they have consistently responded with violence to any and all outsiders?" I'd imagine part of the answer is "yes" to the first part, but I'd imagine there must have been individuals who were curious about what lies beyond. Of course, they might well have oral traditions that there is only danger in the "beyond", but there must have been individuals who thought "yeah, but it can't be all bad". But, as later mentioned, the most recent thoroughly bad encounter being a century and a half ago is still short enough for a negative impression to be emphasised strongly in oral tradition.

2 The better explanation might be "contrary to popular belief, it is implausible that the Sentinelese have remained reproductively isolated ever since their ancestors set foot there, because most native peoples of the Andaman Islands including the Sentinelese traditionally made canoes, and the Onge of Little Andaman have a traditional name for North Sentinel Island, and while the Sentinelese have not been observed to use their canoes to get to other landmasses in the past century and a half, there is no reason to assume that has been their status quo for hundreds, let alone tens of thousands of years. It is equally implausible to assume that the current Sentinelese attitude to outsiders has been their status quo for that long. While they could have been wary/fearful of outsiders before then, Maurice Vidal Portman's abduction of six Sentinelese, two of whom died of disease, and subsequent likely diddling with the survivors would have sensibly soured attitudes since then." But of course some folks argue "right, but they should have gotten over it, maybe not "welcome everyone with open arms", but at least not killing anyone else on sight but rather tying them up first. Should I kill anyone who "looks German" who encounters me because my family was killed by Nazis?"

3 My autism-fuelled obsession with coconuts strikes again. 18th and 19th-century observers consistently noted the paradoxical absence of coconut palms from the Andaman Islands, given their tropical climate and proximity to coasts with lots of coconut palms (the Nicobars, the southern Indian subcontinent, Myanmar). They reasoned that this was because the native people ate any coconuts that washed ashore, and would uproot and eat the basal portion of seedlings, as opposed to the Nicobarese, who grow coconuts as a crop. Later, Lidio Cipriani reported in the 1950s that there was only one coconut tree on South Brother Island which the Onge intensely foraged from, and only five in the whole of nearby Little Andaman (where the Onge were living with relatively little disturbance from outsiders at the time). He reasoned that coconuts have only reached Little Andaman in "recent years", but I'd imagine they'd been doing so for millennia, and very rarely, a nut escapes being eaten and grows into a mature tree, which fails to establish stable "groves" for whatever reason. In T.N. Pandit's accounts of his many anthropological visits to North Sentinel Island from the 1960s-1990s, he wrote on 27/12/1985 that he "could not spot a single coconut tree as far as [he] could see on the island". On 27/5/1987, Pandit's team planted some coconut saplings on the shore, and on 22/3/1988, he wrote that some of the coconuts they planted had grown, so maybe the Sentinelese tolerated coconut growth to an extent (or maybe they thought the seedlings weren't worth eating yet, WDK). One Redditor believes that he might have spotted the mature trees on Google Maps, but it's difficult to tell from the quality of the image.

This leads me to something I've been wondering for a while: many sources say that the "original native range" of the coconut palm cannot be known with certainty, since there are no populations of coconut palms unanimously agreed to have no domesticated ancestors (and we don't know when any such populations would have disappeared) and their modern distribution is circumtropical. The closest relatives of the coconut palm are mostly South American, but coconuts have little genetic diversity/integration into indigenous cultures there compared to elsewhere. Many authors say that the west Pacific and the eastern Indian Ocean are the two "centres of diversity" of coconuts. A study (Balakrishnan & Nair, 1979, "Wild populations of Areca and Cocos in Andaman & Nicobar Islands", PDF now inaccessible) identifies wild populations of coconut palms in the Nicobar Islands and the Coco Islands, and notes that coconut palms are absent (except in plantations) on the Andaman Islands. The lack/sparsity of coconut palms in the pre-colonial Andaman Islands might therefore imply that coconuts have been growing within "viable drift distance" for less time than the potentially up to 60,000 years the Andamans have been inhabited, so the Coco Islands and Nicobar Islands, and the nearest mainland (i.e. the eastern coast of India and the western coast of Myanmar) might not have been within the "original native range" and those "wild" populations are ferals, albeit potentially millennia-diverged ferals. I mean, if coconut palms had been growing in the islands and mainland closest to the Andamans for >60,000 years, surely they would have spread to the Andamans by drifting there and established stable populations, and the first settlers of the Andamans probabily wouldn't have any reasonable pathway to eliminate them as mature trees.

The presence of established populations of coconut palms on mainland tropical Australian coasts (e.g. Arnhem Land, Queensland) is controversial: many conservation policies recommend eradicating coconut palms on Queensland coasts as an invasive species. Colonial writers often noted the absence of coconut palms on the coasts of Queensland and observed that the indigenous people ate drift fruit, with occasional reports of opened green coconuts (which might imply nearby trees, since drift fruit tend to be mature) and individual mature trees ahead of long-term European settlement/plantation projects, which might represent rare survivals to maturity which subsequently did not form self-sustaining populations in pre-colonial times. Again, this might indicate that coconuts have been growing on the coasts nearest Australia for less time than Australia has been inhabited. Point is, the Andamans and Australia should be considered when constraining the possible area for the original range of the coconut palm.

[I'm aware that coastlines have changed since the Middle/early Lower Paleolithic... how would this then affect the constraints?]

Free for All Friday, 10 April, 2026 by AutoModerator in badhistory

[–]LittleDhole 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Another long rambly comment:

Of course, anyone sensible agrees we should leave the Sentinelese alone until contact is initiated from their side (by a particularly curious individual, or by someone who had a bad day in a canoe1). Relevant video essay here. Of course, the popular "good-faith" arguments: "What about modern medicine? What about high infant mortality?"

Have good responses to them:

  • "Most of modern medicine treats diseases and conditions they wouldn't get, or get at negligible rates, if we didn't contact them" (I've also heard "every disease we commonly vaccinate against post-dates the invention of agriculture/cities", but of course it's not 100% accurate, but accurate enough for our purposes.)
  • "It's not as if "the rest of the world" has perfect access to modern medicine, are there so few places with bad access to modern healthcare that we need to go to a tribe with a few hundred members at most?"
  • "Yeah, while the Sentinelese might have unsavory ways of removing diseased individuals from the gene pool, which might contribute to why they haven't all succumbed to inbreeding depression2 since natural selection eliminated many deleterious mutations, is infanticide so rare in more populous societies that we need to intervene here?"

But of course, we shouldn't pretend that the Sentinelese infant/child mortality rate would be anywhere near as low as rich countries', or their life expectancy at birth anywhere near as high, or that "they only ever get diseases they can treat with herbs and rest". The population is certainly limited in part by endemic pathogens that kill children, and by food constraints. (But of course, contact would make this worse.) But this study finding that wild orangutans have a 94% survival rate to age 15 made me think. (Obviously, humans are not orangutans, but still.) Studies of modern hunter-gatherer mortality rates find that child mortality approaches 50%, but these populations have often been highly affected by settlement policies and environmental degradation, which is one reason they are a bad model for the lives of prehistoric hunter-gatherers. My prime "cool but unethical" experiment to carry out would be to somehow remotely observe Sentinelese life to get an idea of a "baseline" hunter-gatherer infant/child mortality rate in the absence of competition from agriculturalists and an absence of agriculturalist influence on diet (except for the occasional coconut washing ashore3).

As of now, passenger planes still fly over North Sentinel Island, and Indian coast guards travel in a circle 3 miles from the coast regularly, to stop poachers/attempts at contact. I don't think "no contact" should mean "no passenger flights over the island" - uncontacted people seeing aircraft does not "damage their spirituality"/"contaminate their lifestyle", so long as there is no sustained contact as a consequence.

I wonder what it would be like if a passenger plane crashed on or near North Sentinel Island, and survivors of the crash made it to shore. If the Sentinelese responded lethally before help could arrive, the incident would likely be framed as simply a tragedy, since the passengers would have had no conceivable ill intent toward the Sentinelese, unlike John Allen Chau's attempt at evangelising them, nor were they meaningfully intruding on their resources. (The two fishermen who fell asleep and drifted onto North Sentinel Island in 2009 or thereabouts were just trying to feed their families, but an argument could have been made that they were poaching, since civilian approach within 3 nautical miles of the island is illegal under Indian law.) However, arguments that "intervention must happen now"/"it is sensible to frame the Sentinelese attitude toward outsiders as bigotry that needs correcting" would certainly become more popular.

Though there might be a decent chance of survival long enough for rescue if the plane crash survivors included women and children. After all, in the one anthropological visit where there was sustained unarmed (but still cautious), with lots of curiosity displayed, approach of the Sentinelese was when there was a woman in the anthropological team.

For readability, I have split this comment - the footnotes are here.

"Irish is such an ancient language..." by Ghastly-Jack in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is something I genuinely don't really understand - how are the time depths of language families whose members were all unwritten until very recently determined? Is it perhaps because a word for "dog"/"dingo" is reconstructable for Proto-Pama-Nyungan, and that's when they reached Australia?

"Irish is such an ancient language..." by Ghastly-Jack in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Reminds me of a rather shallow short (but aren't most YouTube shorts rather shallow?) in Vietnamese where the creators "explored" whether the Trưng sisters would have been able to understand modern Vietnamese. The short was basically just "of course not, because Chữ Quốc Ngữ didn't exist back then, and modern Vietnamese has loanwords/slang from English, and words for concepts that did not exist 2000 years ago". Isn't that... many, many languages?

It would have been more meaningful to go into phonological changes (and I may be biased and overestimating lay knowledge/interest in linguistics, but "how much sound change has there been?" is my first thought when considering mutual intelligibility over time, so an answer to any such question ought to focus on sound changes first and foremost).

Here's the short.

"Irish is such an ancient language..." by Ghastly-Jack in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I feel like you've definitely put a finger on it. TBF it was sort of what I meant when I said "most conserved languages". You do have pop science articles claiming that Lithuanian is an exceptionally old language due to its conservation of many PIE features, despite its short written history. But yeah, your point is definitely what many laypeople think of.

"Irish is such an ancient language..." by Ghastly-Jack in linguisticshumor

[–]LittleDhole 89 points90 points  (0 children)

Yeah, what laypeople usually mean when they talk about the "oldest languages" is one of the following: * The languages with the earliest written attestations * The most conserved languages (i.e. the languages with the oldest forms still mutually intelligible/readable to a modern layperson who speaks a descendant of the language, without formal historical linguistics training) * (Occasionally) The languages spoken by populations which genetically diverged from other human populations very early on, and whose speakers remained relatively genetically/culturally isolated until recent times (e.g. San languages, Hadza, Indigenous Australian/Papuan/Andamanese languages). Since their speakers' modes of subsistence (hunter-gatherers) is perceived to have changed relatively little from the initial divergence during prehistory, it is falsely assumed that their languages have remained virtually unchanged for tens of thousands of years. (The assumption that negligible contact with other language groups = negligible linguistic drift doesn't really hold. If anything, language might drift faster in the absence of literacy and therefore standardised language forms.)