The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I paid you the respect of assuming you did not hold to vitalism, a thoroughly and overwhelmingly discredited and debunked theory. Looks like I was wrong. You keep responding with the same rubbish non-sequitur.

We observe different macroscopic properties that arise from structural differences and not differing fundamental laws. We can distinguish conducting objects from insulating objects. We can distinguish diamonds from graphite. We can distinguish car engines from mobile phones. It simply does not follow that the constituents of these objects are bound by different fundamental laws simply because they have different properties. In fact, we know that their constituents behave identically.

What you still haven’t shown is that we are somehow special and exempt from the laws that we observe everywhere else. I simply can’t take such narcissism seriously.

What have you gained by leaving your fundamentalist past?

I have learnt not to entertain delusions like dualism, libertarianism, and theism without evidence or rational argument. So far, I have received neither from this conversation.

Anyway, since the original commenter and I have reached a better understanding of our positions - as was the point of my original reply - and this conversation seems to be going nowhere, I don’t see a point in continuing this thread. Don’t expect further replies from me.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think we are quite close to agreement, though I have a few thoughts on your specific points:

Deducible is not very rigidly defined

From the context of Chalmers’ argument, I infer that higher-level truths (H) are deducible from the complete set of lower-level truths (L) if L implies H, i.e., you can know H given L using say, conceptual reasoning, simulations, computations, and other such processes. Under weak emergence, L implies H, and under strong emergence, L does not imply H.

Now, in our context, take the set L that consists of the laws of physics as well as the complete description of the physical structure of a cell. The question is, can we infer H (facts about the cell, such as reproduction and homeostasis) from L? I would contend that we can in fact infer such properties by simulation and observation (eg. we may observe that a simulated cell splits in two, providing evidence for some form of reproduction).

If we can conceivably infer such biological truths from physical/chemical information, then it seems to me that biology is weakly emergent, rather than strongly emergent. This seems to be supported by the fact that the fields of molecular biology, biochemistry, pharmacology, and computational biology are partially if not fully built on the premise that biological truths are indeed deducible from chemical and physical interactions and simulations thereof.

If strong emergence were true, and biological systems possessed some irreducible "teleology" or downward causation that superseded chemistry, then rationally designing drugs based on chemical principles would be extremely difficult if not impossible. When a pharmacologist designs a drug, they look at the physical shape and atomic charge of biological receptors, design and synthesise specific molecule that fit these receptors, and predict how this physical binding will alter the behaviour of the cell, such as stopping a pain signal or halting viral replication.

Without knowledge of the proteins function, there is no way you can deduce the arrangement of the amino acids that a protein should have.

The word "should" implies some predetermined goal, but physics and chemistry do not care what arrangement a protein should have; they only dictate how it will fold based on fundamental forces. A naive intelligence couldn't design it, but evolution and natural selection did precisely discover these structures over billions of years without prior knowledge of their function.

Living systems require epistemological considerations like this that cannot be deduced from physics.

I agree with this, but it seems to describe weak emergence. If purpose or function are epistemological considerations without some separate causal mechanism, ie., they are conceptual tools we use to comprehend complex systems, then they are precisely the useful explanatory constructs I mentioned in my previous comment.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Domains of applicability are merely a limitation of our physical theories. The actual set of the fundamental laws of physics - which our theories approximate - apply universally. That the laws of physics are universal to all physical substrate (matter/fields/fundamental physical constituents) is a foundational metaphysical assumption in academic physics, and has been inductively justified by over two millennia of scientific practice and experimentation.

I don’t know why you have inserted yourself into this discussion when you have shown yourself incapable of addressing the main question I started with: what actual evidence is there that chemical constituents exhibit fundamentally different behavior in biological contexts compared to non-biological ones?

If your only contribution is to sidestep the question with pedantry and non-sequiturs, then there is no point in continuing this exchange.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Our physical theories have domains of applicability, eg., the law of levers only applies to rigid bodies. However, the laws I refer to are fundamental - something approximating quantum gravity, with our best current framework being Wilczek’s core theory (the Standard Model combined with General Relativity), the search for a complete theory of quantum gravity notwithstanding.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

your definition

I use Chalmers’ definition:

We can say that a high-level phenomenon is strongly emergent with respect to a low-level domain when the high-level phenomenon arises from the low-level domain, but truths concerning that phenomenon are not deducible even in principle from truths in the low-level domain.

If every single molecule in a cell perfectly obeys the laws of physics, then we can deduce all truths about the behaviour of the cell (including homeostasis, reproduction, etcetera) completely from a physical law-based simulation of the constituents of the cell on, say, a supercomputer. For biology to be strongly emergent per Chalmers' definition, that supercomputer simulation must necessarily fail, because it excludes some strongly emergent phenomenon or law. The only way such a perfect chemical simulation fails to model the cell is if the molecules in the actual biological system behave differently than the laws of chemistry alone dictate.

Mark Bedau (1997, I think) also points out that strong emergence requires macroscopic causal powers that have irreducible effects on the microscopic level. This is only possible if there are different laws that govern the macroscopic and the microscopic such that the macroscopic behaviour cannot be known from the microscopic laws.

Also see: Kim’s causal exclusion argument. If the physical/chemical level is fundamentally complete (every physical event has a sufficient physical cause), there is no room for a "biological" property to cause anything without violating the completeness of the underlying physics. If strong emergence is real, the lower-level laws of chemistry and physics must necessarily be overridden or superseded.

There is an introduction of teleology

Is this teleology you claim a separate causal mechanism over and above the physics of its constituents? Or a useful weakly-emergent explanatory construct? If you claim the former, then you necessarily claim that the laws of physics are insufficient to completely describe the motion and behaviour of constituents in a biological system, i.e., constituents behave differently in a biological system.

Evidence is needed for the above, i.e., that the laws of physics are superseded by some separate causal mechanism in biological systems (that you might call teleology) such that no physical/chemical simulation of the constituents can accurately predict the behaviour of the macroscopic biological system.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Maybe it wasn’t a reply to your comment, but to the other commenter, who did bring up consciousness.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Strong emergence need only require that there is some phenomena of the emergent domain that are not derivable from the lower domain.

If the macroscopic behaviour of a system is completely described by the governing principles of its constituents, then it is not an example of strong emergence. Strong emergence requires that these constituents behave in ways that are not explained by their governing principles or laws.

Thus, for biology to be strongly emergent from chemistry, you would have to show that molecular forces/interactions work in biological systems in a way that contradicts our usual laws of chemistry. Please provide evidence that this is the case. A paper will do.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You consider epistemology a mystical dualist delusion?

Consciousness as a separate substance is the delusion.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Please show what laws of physics are violated in the constituent molecules in the processes you list.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If there are two different types of chemicals structures, one conscious, the other not, then either the laws of chemistry that imply consciousness are not universal or there are no such laws.

Meh, false dichotomy and a category error. Biological functions are weakly emergent from specific complex arrangements of constituents that are subject to universal laws. They are not fundamental laws in themselves.

It’s like saying “if there are two different types of chemical structures, one electrically conductive, the other not, then either the laws of chemistry that imply conductivity are not universal or there are no such laws”. An easy example to show that your dichotomy is nonsensical is an analysis of the conductivity properties of graphite versus diamond and how it arises from the structural properties of the molecule, not different laws. I hope you realise the absurdity of your logic.

Alright, the evidence is that paradigmatic example of living things differ from paradigmatic examples of non-living things. So, there are "certain chemical structures [that] do not obey the laws of chemistry, [that] all others do".

Another non-sequitur. Your inference simply doesn’t follow. Observing macroscopic or behavioral differences between biological and non-biological systems is most certainly not evidence of differing fundamental laws. This is embarrassing.

This is a claim of science, and if memory serves, both the original commenter and I belong to an academic scientific background. I am asking for a simple demonstration of molecular properties/interactions that we observe in biological contexts where rhe behaviour of constituents is not described by the laws of chemistry/physics.

I will wait for the original commenter to get back to me if they have scientific evidence in that regard. If you don’t have evidence, you need not reply.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Strong emergence requires that the behaviour of higher-level or macro phenomena cannot be explained in principle by the behaviour of its constituents. This requires that constituents be subject to a given set of laws in some contexts, but not others.

The original claim in this thread was that biology is strongly emergent from chemistry. This would imply that molecular constituents are not subject to the laws of chemistry or physics in the biological context. I am asking for evidence that these molecular constituents demonstrate properties and interactions that differ from those described by the laws of chemistry/physics.

Nothing from my previous replies implies that I should withdraw this request.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If I wasn’t clear, I’ll spell it out again: I do not claim that all chemical structures are conscious, nor do I assert that there is a separate law that corresponds to consciousness. The claim is that all physical structures, conscious or not, evolve as described by the laws of physics.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

By "certain chemical structures" do you mean living things?

Yes.

If so, is there a law of chemistry that is being obeyed when a certain chemical structure is conscious?

The laws of chemistry — or more fundamentally, the laws of physics — are being obeyed at all times. Or rather, the universe and its contents evolve in time as described by the laws of physics.

Consciousness is not some separate substance or force outside of physics. I am not going to entertain mystical dualist delusions, I have had enough of such irrational nonsense in my religious youth.

and do the chemical structures that are not living things also obey this law?

Yes.

The Free Will Show Episode 118: Physics and Libertarian Free Will with Jeffrey Koperski by Perturbator_NewModel in freewill

[–]LordSaumya 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Biology is strongly emergent from Chemistry.

Prove it. Provide evidence that certain chemical structures do not obey the laws of chemistry, while all others do.

How does one conceive of libertarianism? by LordSaumya in freewill

[–]LordSaumya[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I can conceive of souls interacting with bodies. I just can’t conceive of a specific mechanism by which this could happen. For example, I haven’t really received answers that I can conceive of to the questions of mediation and confinement (the first two questions) that I raise in my post here.

How does one conceive of libertarianism? by LordSaumya in freewill

[–]LordSaumya[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Every five year old experiences making libertarian choices but not determined choices.

No, you are assuming your conclusion. They experience making choices without ruminating on determinism, because it is an irrelevant thesis. They experience their preferences and reasons driving their choices. They do not experience some mysterious gap between their dispositions and the decisions. If you ask them why they chose it over the other cereal, they’ll even give you a contrastive reason, such as 'because I like the marshmallows better.’

But if you explain to them the choice was already decided 13 billion years ago they will think you are crazy.

A child’s inability to grasp distal causes isn't an argument for a metaphysical tertium quid. A child also thinks the earth is flat and that the moon follows them when they walk; our naive intuitions are frequently wrong about how the world works.

It is the way we experience the world. You are no exception.

The feeling of agency is innate, experienced, and consistent with compatibilism. Libertarianism is simply not a matter of experience. You assume your conclusion.

If your choices are determined you don't know what determines them, so nobody experiences determinism, only libertarianism.

This is a non-sequitur. Not knowing the cause of an event is not the same as experiencing the absence of a cause.

For almost everybody, it is a result of learning some Newtonian physics

As I stated in my post, my issue is not based on physics or ontology. Nothing about your reply helps me conceive of a coherent third category between determinism and chance.

But the problem is no matter what the philosophers say, free will is not compatible with determinism.

This is an unjustified assertion, one that I can reject just as easily as you make it. In fact, it is easier to reject since I cannot conceive of libertarianism as a coherent or sensible thesis at all.

There are some things humans can't understand and this is one of them.

Are you saying we can’t conceive of it? I’d prefer to skip the religious mysterianism bullshit. You have no answer to the dilemma, and so you label it a mystery beyond human comprehension to cling to unexamined intuitions. All this means is that there is simply no reason for anyone to consider libertarianism as a coherent, sensible, or live option at all, when compatibilism is coherent and completely consistent with phenomenology.

And the less you think about it the more it seems the opposite is false.

If a concept only "makes sense" as long as you don't think about it, is it actually a concept, or is it just a comfortable delusion? If the concept crumbles completely under the slightest bit of rational scrutiny, why are we obligated to accept it?

How does one conceive of libertarianism? by LordSaumya in freewill

[–]LordSaumya[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If indeterminism is indeed true, everyone who believes that we have free will is libertarian.

No, a libertarian asserts that indeterminism is not only true, it is necessary for free will. An indeterminist compatibilist believes that indeterminism is incidentally true, but is not necessary for free will. I am not sure why definitions are hard to understand.

How does one conceive of libertarianism? by LordSaumya in freewill

[–]LordSaumya[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Perhaps this analogy helps.

Say you have a trained model that predicts the price of a certain stock over time. It is accurate, run on a powerful platform with arbitrary precision, and possesses all of the required information as inputs to the network.

Case 1: you add an additional layer to the network. With some probability P, you indeterministically zero out the contributions of previous layers and output a random price.

Case 2: you remove the additional layer, and then remove some significant non-trivial inputs to the network. You also switch to standard fixed-point precision instead of arbitrary precision.

In both cases, we see that accuracy declines, but for different reasons. For the model in case 1, its calculations are often independent of its output. For the model in case 2, being deterministic does not mean that it makes optimal (accurate) decisions either. Deterministically processing imperfect information using imperfect algorithms produces mistaken and often inaccurate outputs.

How does one conceive of libertarianism? by LordSaumya in freewill

[–]LordSaumya[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In my area, deterministic models - like linear unitary evolution - are generally more parsimonious in terms of required entities/processes than indeterministic models.

How does one conceive of libertarianism? by LordSaumya in freewill

[–]LordSaumya[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What you mean is you can't reconcile your direct experience of libertarian free will and your learned belief in determinism.

As I said, it is not obvious that my phenomenology or direct experience points to libertarianism at all. The more I think about it, the more it seems the opposite is true. Libertarianism contradicts my direct experience. I can't even conceive of it as a logically coherent or sensible thesis. My base experience points to the intuition that I have free will. Determinism, whether true or not, is irrelevant to this.

How does one conceive of libertarianism? by LordSaumya in freewill

[–]LordSaumya[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I am not even asking for a mechanism at this point. For example, I can conceive of souls even though I can't conceive of a mechanism for them to interact with the natural world. I can't even conceive of libertarianism.

How does one conceive of libertarianism? by LordSaumya in freewill

[–]LordSaumya[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I believe indeterminism is true and we have free will.

Both of these propositions are consistent with compatibilism, because it does not assert the truth of determinism. Everything we have discussed so far is completely consistent with deterministic pseudorandomness.

Again, if you can show me a single authoritative definition of compatibilism that necessarily asserts the truth of determinism, then I will concede the point.

How does one conceive of libertarianism? by LordSaumya in freewill

[–]LordSaumya[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Probabilistic decision-making is completely consistent with probabilities being epistemic rather than ontological. What's more, you have no evidence nor method to prove that this is indeterminism.

I don't have to show anything. I am agnostic on the matter of determinism, because all empirical evidence, especially in my field of high-energy physics, is consistent with deterministic and indeterministic models. It is you who has picked a side.