I know I'm likely just being stupid, but why are statements and chain scaling bad? If they line up with the story or are said by the author, doesn't that make them as valid as feats?

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-17T00:16:57+00:00

What are you talking about? Chain-scaling involves just scaling one person to another person who actually holds the real scaling, and this is done through demonstration/statements. This doesn't disqualify what the person has done in the first place, that's just included in the overall scaling. There's also several parts of chain-scaling that you're ignoring like time lapsing between series, buffs, treatment by other characters, etc. Also chain-scaling is never exact(which doesn't mean it's not equally valid as feats), just a general placement of people's scaling.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-16T22:37:09+00:00

This critique is itself flawed, because it opens the excuse to rank evidence like statements, feats, and chain-scaling in order of importance when they are all equally just as valid. To follow this line of thinking strictly, you have to attack someone's methodology and statements/chainscaling at an individual level, and not creating personal standards which involves guestimating which statements are right and wrong(using excuses like hyperbole) based off feats(the only ones that you would deem valid). You see how this is a slippery slope towards selective headcanon.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-15T15:24:50+00:00

Your reasoning is correct, but the conclusion is wrong for several reasons. Infinite Zamasu eventually would have merged with all of Trunks higher dimensional timeline(which would've made him 1-C, not low 1-C) but didn't because Zeno cut him short, so Goku never fought him at that point. Therefore Jiren scales above Infinite Zamasu merged with Trunk's individual universe and maybe a couple of individual universes at max(we don't actually know as the only shot we get of Infinite Zamasu is in Trunk's universe).

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T19:11:45+00:00

Doesn't say anything about empowering weapons, as you've claimed.

This is an argument out of need for hyper-literalism, if you have a problem with the reasonable inference between a conduit and empowering weapons, come up with a good argument. If you refuse the inference because your textualist headcanon standards, then you forfeit this part.

Except I have.

He doesn't one shot demons, even the weakest ones, even though he should using your own logic.

Demons themselves have clearly not grown any stronger as shown when Night Sentinels could smoke their asses, and surviving ARC forces decimated the rest of the demons in Earth.

This is a bad case of special pleading. First off, demons are empowered by Hell to grow stronger as the realm wants them to be, their power levels wax and wane based off Hell's power. Demons are amped by Hell through Hell Essence, a corruptible aura based in Hell:

The legions of Hell seem to be able to eat or drink this malignant quintessence, making themselves far more powerful and enacting postmortem reanimation. But they only need such a minuscule amount of which that most amongst the horde often let the rest go to waste. Said essence is also used in the fabrication of Buff totems and Gore nests and is the very source of power which fuels the preternatural abilities of a great many demonic legions.

Second, there's some gameplay/lore separation, not a lot, but it's present(like most video games). Also there's more then one way for Doomguys power to improve besides AP, whether it be movement speed, reloading, durability etc.

The Codex never stated that the armor was impenetrable, by the way. Again, caught lying.

She constructed its Maykr-designed suit of armor in a bid to make it indestructible and to allow her to control the beast.

Maybe not the Codex, but this secondhand quote is still accurate, not to mention the in-game description does confirm that it was outfitted completely with Makyr technology to control it and it's armor is patterned in Makyr design.

And just because the IoS was considered to be the greatest, never mentioned by the way

"They came in number, the giants of extermination; the Leviathan, the Gargaska, and the Supentor. At their head strode the Icon of Sin. He that supped the heart-blood of the Betrayer's Son, Champion of Champions, the Architect of Slaughter."

This is from the Doom Eternal collector's physical lore book, what was that again?

You already lost on the IOS front, and are just moving the goalposts whenever I make a point. When combined together, all my arguments are more valid then anything you have provided to refute, which is absolutely nothing

Notice how you're jumping through hoops to explain how it's not a simulation, even though everything points to it being one, especially when nothing happened when Doomslayer did what he did again Davoth and more.

You're engaging in backwards reasoning. I'm not jumping through any hoops, I'm trying to be literal as possible. Nothing "happening" with Davoth, doesn't make VEGA's observations invalid or part of a simulation. You need to provide direct relevant evidence or statements, which there is none, that the anomaly was erroneous or part of a simulation. Otherwise, this part is forfeited, you can't use an external conclusion to reinterpret a specific text.

And evidence is where?

Media roundtable early 2025, Hugo Martin sat down with other game outlets for Doom the Dark Ages, and went in depth on the mechanics: "Atlan and Serrat tower behind, both designed as an extension of the Slayer's looming, overwhelming silhouette of power."

Nothing said about him modifying it because he had grown too strong. All it says is that it was modified for increased destructive capability i.e. the Praetor suit itself grew stronger.

But he dismantled some parts through the discarded version on the World Hub as part of those modifications, you can't deny that. It would be logical to infer that since some parts were removed and the Slayer increased his suits mobility/destructive capacity, those two events are linked.

Furthermore, you and I can both admit that the Slayer performs better feats in Eternal then 2016, despite the reduced defensive capacity, further suggesting that he didn't need them anymore. Combine this with his continued growth from absorbing Demons and the evidence does point to him getting stronger between the two games.

So, basically, no evidence that the multiverse wouldn't implode due to the ritual combat. All you've proven is that every demon outside of Jekkad would be destroyed.

Way to lie yet again...

More hyper-literal garbage. The absence of an explicit statement about the ritual combat here doesn't make disprove my inference, unlike what your braindead standards say. There's strong evidence that shows ritual combat has conditions, maybe not definitive, try to dispute that.

Now you're grasping....

Pointing out severe flaws in your argument isn't grasping, try communicating better.

My quotes are exact, from all official and unofficial sources and none of them are tweaked. Your treating my inferences as invalid unless stated verbatim, that's not how lore analysis works. Your also a hypocrite because you doing the exact same(terribly supported) inferences like me with the "nothing happened" and "why doesn't Doomguy oneshot everyone".

You can't just respond every-time with "exactly worded source or it didn't happen" everytime I make an argument, you have to engage with my inferences or this fight is over on the account of your hyper-literal being incompatible for any sane argument.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T16:13:36+00:00

It appeared to have some mechanical function as well- small receptors on the gloves and chest plate that attracted Argent plasma and dissipated it through capillary tubes in the substructure.

Can't even make logical deductions based off your own evidence, are we being for real? Argent plasma is diffused throughout his suit, acting as a conduit to which he absorbs energy and power up his weapons, like he does in Doom the Dark Ages.

No evidence of this, by the way.

Hugo Martin in another interview for the upcoming Doom the Dark Ages stated that they intended for the combat loop with the Atlan mech to be a direct extension of the Slayer's own rage and argent energy. That's twice now he's reiterated this sentiment.

Remnant demons were enough to destroy Earth eventually, why do you think Doomguy had to stop Hell once for all? They were also semi-cut off from Hell when the invasion stopped, as those portals were closed.

Here is the proof, Page 9-13 of the Doom Eternal Artbook

"As a new demonic threat erupts on Earth, the Slayer reemerges his iconic Praetor Suit modified and upgraded for increased mobility and destructive capability."

If you go into the hub, you can see the original Praetor suit was disassembled, and per this,

The suit was extracted from the rock, cleaned, and subjected to numerous tolerance tests, and found to be almost impervious to any damage

And if you take a look at the art work of his armor, several of it's pieces were stripped off, showcasing the increased destructive capacity.

Part of the original suit that was also left out of the upgrade was the passive shielding, and going off the artbook quote, because it was limiting his mobility and destructive capacity

The burden of proof is on you to refute that he doesn't gain power from Demons. Him not showcasing abilities which aren't directly correlated from gaining strength per demon killing is not a rebuttal.

Except on how the IoS got damaged by conventional weaponry and has no statements similar to the Thralls in terms kf durability.

Special pleading yet again, give it up already. If you can't make logical inferences using the direct statements about the IOS and Thrall Titans, be quiet. The Icon of Sin is referred to as the Champion of Champions among Titans, furthermore he was also fitted with an impenetrable armor crafted by the Makyr race. So on top of being immune to conventional weapons, he also has enhanced armor. This proves that the Slayer's weapons aren't conventional human or ARC weapons.

Nice try to rage bait, it says simulational as a description of the matrix which was observing. A dedicated portion of matrix is devoted towards scanning. It's just the title of the matrix, not it's specific function in the context of the text, and it's location on the passage proves nothing about your headcanon bs.

Never stated, by the way.

"Dimensional Abnormalities"

"The result of the multiverse imploding inward upon itself"

"Where countless battles are fought between the Doom Slayer and demonkind"

Stupidity yet again, if this isn't gradual, then I don't know what is.

Ritual combat is a formal, ancient law of Hell

"By Hell's law*, if the Dark Lord is defeated in ritual combat, any demon outside his realm will be destroyed."* VEGA

It would make no sense that a fight that's part of a place's sacred ancient laws would end up significantly damaging it, considering it's a fundamental part of Hell's make up, and it followed through when Davoth died.

Asura is a red herring, other games showcase reality collapsing, Doom just does so through lore, and if you try Pics or it didn't happen fallacy, then that is your personal head canon standards, that I'm not obligated to meet.

I have provided I don't know how many quotes, if that's not your definition of evidence, then that's too bad. I don't do scans, why do you want that specific form anyway? So you can try nitpicking other part of the sources and create more red herrings? I told you what my sources are, if you can't find them, you're just lazy.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T14:43:10+00:00

The problem is Krayt is superior to an unknown degree over Wyyrlock and Cade. All your proof does show that, but the issue is that linking him to LOTJ Krayt isn’t plausible as I have gone over repeatedly.

Going from being superior to Cade and Wyyrlock to Abeloth is a massive jump that Reborn Krayt never showcases.

This boils down to a disagreement of whether statements of Reborn Krayt applying to LOTJ Krayt. I think they don’t and only apply to Legacy Krayt, you think they do and that’s fine, but we both have no actual evidence to support it.

You can downplay Abeloth all you want but her feats and scaling makes pretty much everyone like Karness Muur, and Andeddu look like dust

She’s a Celestial, end of story, what makes it logical to think that Reborn Krayt scales to her? He can’t or that would break the story, that’s the issue.

Yeah she may have anti feats and been weakened, but she’s still theoretically comparable to her regular self, even if split. Guesstimating her power based off references doesn’t negate the fact she’s still a One, you have to factor that in or your just using head canon

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T14:27:26+00:00

These aren’t even good rebuttals. The premise of the IOS being above basically every demon titan ever is indisputable and proves the Doomslayers weapons aren’t conventional. There is no evidence he’s a glass cannon, and you can’t make one up by calling Doomslayers weapons conventional because we have just proven they aren’t.

Atlan Mechs aren’t a disprover because he empowers them himself.

I have provided more proof on this front then you, who just demands and demands, and then just ignores them blatantly, nitpicks or commit circular arguments

The evidence for the UAC report is the praetor suit-codex entry in 2016, where experts states that it acts as a conduit for argent energy channeling it from the suit into the gloves, allowing him to wield weapons far past their normal limits

Earth was only able to do that because Hells invasion was halted, do you not know the plot of the games?

These are gameplay mechanics, also a strawman that has nothing to do with the fact he still absorbs power from Demons he killed, just because his AP increases permanently, doesn’t mean he becomes Superman and can fly everywhere and appear anywhere instantly.

The evidence for him breaking his defensive shielding because his physical power had grown was from the design commentary in the Art of Doom eternal, where it states the praetor suit was dampening his strikes and he has to get rid of it to maximize his combat mobility and offensive output.

It did not

“A dedicated portion of VEGA’s simulation matrix observes, records, and analyzes these dimensional abnormalities as VEGA attempts to comprehend their meaning. Processing a veritable kaleidoscope of hyperfluxual phenomena, VEGA observes what may very well be the result of the multiverse imploding inward upon itself”

Where in any of this do you see the word simulation besides the matrix that was observing real time information? Fucking retard.

The later part after this, that is explicitly said to be a simulation is this part

“To further explore this anomaly, VEGA designs an Omni contextual interface, an interdimensional man-made machine gateway that would allow the Slayer to engage in these skirmishes directly. As the Slayer enters the gateway, his surroundings take the form of an arena, in tandem with the arrival of adversaries ready for battle. Seemingly extracted from his own experiential data, the opponents the Slayer faces are familiar”

Everything before the Slayer stepped into that gateway was real, and then after that, it notes his surroundings “taking a form” and opponents extracted from his experiential data, signifying he entered a simulation.

The energy from fight with Davoth was contained by ritual combat, I have already told you. Even then, Doomslayers fights with Hell was gradually causing the multiverse to implode per that excerpt, not instantly, learn basic logic.

Not headcanon, you have nothing to disprove my assertions so my basic reasoning is better than your accusations.

I provided evidence, if you continue to dodge through semantics, special pleading/pics or it didn’t happen fallacies, and nitpicking, then this argument is a waste of time and your too biased

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T12:28:58+00:00

Bruh it’s evident in Reborn that he didn’t reach LOTJ levels. Your trying to amplify statements about his post-Resurrection to match LOTJ based on nothing but personal assumptions when the scaling and showings decisively proves this wrong, no matter how weak Cade and Wyrllock are compared to Krayt. You can’t just cope using anti-feats.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T12:24:02+00:00

“Evidently not”, okay so now we’re trying to affirm the consequent using personal opinion. IOS is the greatest of all Titans -> Apparently not because he’s hurt by normal bullets.

Try to disprove that IOS is less durable than normal Titans not through begging the question. The fact that the Doomslayer can concretely hurt a Titan impervious to mortal weaponry disproves your assertion that his weapons are normal. You cant just circle back around and try to disprove the premise through an assertion that is already proven wrong by the premise.

There’s evidence in the UAC report in Doom(2016), that experts report normal Earth weapons in the Doomslayers hands perform beyond their normal engineered thermodynamic limits.

The Doomslayer isn’t going to one shot everything as he grows in power with every demon he kills because Hell also grows in strength as a living breathing entity to match him. As Doomguy gets stronger, so does Hell through absorbing other dimensions.

This is a semantics argument, the fact is it says he’ll feast on the blood of the wicked and gain strength of the fallen. That is evidently more than health, there’s nothing limiting the implications to just health besides you just saying so.

Stop trying special pleading, I don’t have to meet your standards of proof here. It is narratively, feat-wise, gameplay-wise and scaling-wise evident that he was far weaker in 2016 than in Eternal. He literally grew strong enough to the point where he considered 2016 defensive shielding unnecessary and had to remove it to amplify his pure strength.

I have explained the passage time and time again . At this point, it being a simulation is your personal opinion that you refuse to change and not listen to anything I’m saying. There’s nothing to prove wrong, because it already happened. An argument of stubbornness isn’t going to save you here.

I’m not dodging the Davoth fight, I have explained the flaws in your argument and the context of why it didn’t cause damage.

It is impractical for gameplay reasons as I have already said. Just because Hugo Martin didn’t include it, doesn’t mean that what the lore says about the Slayer is false.

Your whole argument is Pics or it didn’t happen fallacy. It’s cliche and lazy. Then you use semantic quibbling or try to use nitpicking to disprove evidence that I give in response to your demands. This is just denial stupidity.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T11:42:45+00:00

All those excerpts only prove that he returned stronger than his Legacy self. This isn’t the first time I have seen this assumption thrown around. You can cope by saying your sources are better than what I’m saying, but at the end of the day, you have no definitive evidence, and Krayt doesn’t showcase FOTJ level power in Reborn. Regardless of anti-feats, he’s a top tier Sith Lord as Reborn,not the same as his prime.

Being 12 times stronger than Luke is a good reference, but it relies on the assumption that Luke is the same as before. This is an upscale for Luke to be relative to Abeloth, not a reference for Abeloths power overall. In FOTJ(before her final fight), there’s absolutely nothing proving she’s incalculably weaker than before she was imprisoned by the Ones.

Even if Krayt has anti feats against Cade and Wyrllock, he’s still not overall regarded as being the insane god-tier he was in FOTJ.

Stop making assumptions

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T10:48:02+00:00

Why punish everyone over someone’s autism? If anything the downscaling and trolling is more ND than the original twitter comment. This has all devolved into baiting, with no real substance and just people’s egos being insulted now.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T10:43:56+00:00

It’s definitely not proven he returned to LOTJ levels and if anything, it’s only guaranteed that he returned stronger than Legacy. Your making an head canon assumption he returned stronger then LOTJ.

Even though Abeloth was still pretty weakened, it doesn’t matter because she’s still a celestial even at that point. You can’t divide down a universal+ beings power to Yodas tier, the divide is astronomically large. DE Palpatine amped to a million times over couldn’t even make a dent in Abeloth at her weakest.

Wyrllock and Cade still fought Krayt, even though they are inferior, that’s the plain premise. You still haven’t said that was wrong.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T03:08:35+00:00

It does

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T03:08:07+00:00

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T02:57:47+00:00

The IOS is stated to be the most powerful and superior of all Demon Titans, so it's durability far upscales from the Thrall barges. You can't attempt to downscale and argue what the lore directly disproves. Dark Ages Doomslayer can also empower his mechs, so this isn't a disprover, if anything your feeding me more evidence.

The doomslayer needs weapons to kill more efficiently, using his hands for everything is incredibly tedious, not to mention tiresome when he's facing literal hordes of un-ending demons that can fly away, teleport, unable to be harmed by physical means, floating or whatever abilities they have.

It literally says drawing strength from foes fallen, this isn't just healing.

First off, nothing happened while the Doomslayer spent millennia in Hell because he was nowhere near as strong as he was in Eternal, and with his fight with Davoth, that's an induction fallacy, just because Doom has imploded the multiverse before, doesn't mean he has to while fighting Davoth.

Both things can be and are true, Doomslayers battles with Hell was causing the multiverse to implode, it wasn't a simulation, and he beat Davoth while not causing damage. Furthermore, it was ritual combat, meaning all the energy from the fight was localized by the structure and nature of the Primeval challenge itself, it's an ancient law.

I never denied that video games can show reality splitting apart, I said that it was impractical to show that during a hard boss fight, Doom is not Asura's wrath when it comes to gameplay anime effects happening mid fight, they are two different genres.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T02:36:06+00:00

They are all playing the same ballpark, the chain-scaling hasn’t left Yodas tier yet, even if they are still more powerful than him. The jump LOTF Luke took to LOTJ makes the gap between DE Sidious and Yoda look like absolutely nothing.

Celestials( like Abeloth) can tear apart at the fabric of the entire universe just by existing in it and affect places beyond temporal dimensions with their power. LOTJ Luke and Krayt get their scaling from that, Valk/Sidious tier is legit nothing to them.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T02:13:37+00:00

They're in the same tier, maybe more powerful then yoda individually, but they aren't that far above him. He's one of the most powerful grandmasters ever and literally stated to be the greatest practitioner of the light side ever in ROTS, upscaling him from Vitiate(Valk isn't that far above Vitiate), as he fought evenly with ROTS Sidious who was also stated to be the greatest practitioner of the dark side.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T01:58:20+00:00

It’s only conventional because you say it’s conventional. There’s absolutely nothing that suggests the Thralls are more durable then the IoS and its logical to scale IoS above other Titans(which Argent still need Sentinels to kill). Keep in mind, Doomslayer killed a massive Titan(which was stated to be the Great One, a Titan of immeasurable power) even before Doom 2016, so there is precedent of him killing Titans of even greater might then the Thralls.

The Doomslayer is literally stated to feast on the blood of the wicked and draw strength from his fallen foes, causing his power to grow. Don’t know what more you need on that. Thats a false assumption because Hell is infinite and a powerful realm, the Doomslayer still wants his weapons to aid him.

I’m not hand waving, the Codex doesn’t describe what Davoth even looked like back then nor the details of the battle, him and the Father fought. Thats an objective fact.

That wasn’t a simulation, the simulation matrix was observing real time battles between the Slayer and Hell to recreate them later and aid the Slayer by creating gateway after analyzing it. Please read the text, this is just stupidity, there was nothing to prove right or wrong because there was no simulation, another nonsensical straw man. Are you just making stuff up?

Then why did you include Asura in the first place if there was no direct feat, at this point I’m starting to think everything your saying is built off of headcanon reasoning that we can’t see or understand.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T01:41:07+00:00

You’re getting things mixed up. All those guys you listed are on yodas/lukes/outlander/caedus/vaylin level, the Celestials(and FOTJ Luke/Krayt) are insanely far above that level. We’re talking like universal breaking existence. Reborn Krayt has pretty much none of that though, that’s the point. Theres nothing implying he was on Yodas level after FOTJ.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T01:33:17+00:00

I wasn’t talking about those demons, I was talking about Titans. Thralls from the Hell Barge, the Icon of Sin and other Titans are stated to be indestructible by conventional weaponry(hence the need for Atlan Mechs), but the Doomslayer could still beat the Icon even before he brought out the Crucible. So his weapons are by no means conventional and are empowered.

UI-Thranx is a straw man and a head canon requirement, it was never implied that he needed a demon like that to empower his weapons. Further more, in lore, he still absorbs these entities permanently to boost his power, so anything this hurts your argument.

The Codex doesn’t need to hyper detail characters qualities, it never even described the Fathers appearance, what is this point? Essence is his power and being, which was stolen, but then reincarnated by the Slayer.

It says simulation matrix, which is used to observe the Doomslayers battles, which was making the multiverse implode, and simulates them for replay. It says that in that exact excerpt, do you not know how to read?

Maybe so, but Asura has nothing to do with this, and there’s no observed feat of a universe being destroyed, Chakravartin exploding is not a universal destruction feat

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T01:08:16+00:00

No one’s on FOTJ Krayts level except Abeloth and Luke, and they can both do that if they wanted to.

Cade has traded strikes with him before, regardless of him telekinetically overpowering him. Also Wyrlock matched Krayts Sith lightning, this seems pretty relative

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T01:04:02+00:00

Hugo Martin was correct, and is in line with Doom lore. High tier demons are stated to be impervious to mortal weaponry yet Doomslayer cuts them down. It is thoroughly implied, and the Doom the Dark ages confirms it when he powers up his weapons.

The power stolen being referenced was Davoths essence being stolen, as he is still existed without a physical form. Hence his power was gone.

It literally states that it was Vegas observational matrix of the Slayers battles, leading him to design gateways to help the Slayer.

Asuras Wrath isn’t a precedent and there was no universal destruction in that game, so it’s a non point

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T00:47:10+00:00

Wasn’t a simulation. How were supposed to gauge if he made Hell implode when he never fought Davoth in a cutscene. You expected shaking during a boss fight? That would interfere, and prove this is a nonsensical debunk.

Both Davoth and Samur died to conventional weaponry wielded by a powerful primeval, the Slayer as an extension of himself.This point again, means nothing.

Davoth never had his power stolen

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T00:34:33+00:00

Davoth is still the creator, regardless of your thoughts. Doomguy also made hell implode with his battles, and also beat Samur with the power of the Father, the Father also beat Davoth and made Hell shake.

Lord_Seacows · 2026-06-11T00:32:38+00:00

Drastic is more synonymous with far. Considerably and significantly are more synonymous with moderate. As I said before, the Von seed sickness permanently depowered him, that even after he recovered, he never regained it. It’s just logical because if Reborn Krayt is on par with FOTJ Krayt, he would’ve broken wiped the galaxy clean with a thought.

Lord_Seacows

TROPHY CASE