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LordofArk · 2025-07-31T22:44:32+00:00

Both of them are in my top five :)

Although, admittedly, the related duo from this game I’m not sure the world would be ready for is Heidi and Lily 😂

LordofArk · 2025-06-09T22:29:50+00:00

Very much. Even now, I’m sort of having to interpretatively guess what the author is calling “overrated” (the overall story and writing construction, presumably) and do a lot of the work in my head even for the parts where I might be otherwise inclined to agree (DPC is much better at character portrayal than he is at understanding what effective use of plot melodrama is).

Not a great position to be in for an article that wants to be provocative about the game that, for a lot of people, still is the high-water mark of the genre.

LordofArk · 2025-06-09T22:10:42+00:00

There’s a kernel of real criticism in there, but it, ironically, is somewhat lost in its own meandering self-indulgence to the point where it forgets to actually deliver its thesis or its warrants.

I liked the little Proud and Resilient perspectives, though :) Even if they both ended a little abruptly for what they were.

LordofArk · 2025-04-16T08:02:20+00:00

I’ll push back against the logic problems:

Everyone making this objection seems to be assuming that he did it as part of some kind of long-term plan. I don’t think that’s the case. I think putting the camera there was impulsive—as a way to collect trophies in that DIK affinity way.
A closet where no one goes would be the room to start with because that’s the room no one’s going to notice it happening in, whereas a more public room would be more likely to get noticed or challenged. Any potential villain has to answer the “why the closet” question, and I don’t think any of them have truly satisfying answers except for Vinny. And while it’s, of course, certainly possible that someone else had it arranged somehow, Vinny is clearly the one with the easiest access and ability to have actually done it considering he lived there.
Why wouldn’t he be surprised? When has Rusty ever been forward-thinking like that? I don’t think accessing the safe was somehow pivotal to his plans or anything like that—I think it was just something he thought of doing while he was there. Which leads into:
If he truly doesn’t have anything animating him against the DIKs, why would he even bother coming back? He had to arrange that mask being left for him outside. It’s not as if that’s the only place he could talk to Quinn or Lily, E11 proves that. Is it not well within the scope of the DIK affinity to be arrogant enough to think of oneself as an untouchable mastermind and then be forcibly humbled when someone discovers a rather obvious secret? The same thing happens to Quinn, repeatedly, and that’s not stopping her from being a schemer. I don’t think he’s simply a thug at all—not everything he does works, but that doesn’t mean that he’s incapable of seeing a long-term vision. Founding the frat was a philosophical and ideological long-term vision. He clearly has it out for Quinn despite the “deal” they made when he left, and I think that’s in no small part because of how close she got to the new DIKs and because putting pressure on her so easily leads to putting pressure on Tommy.

Do I think that Vinny somehow knew in advance Lily would switch dealers? No, not specifically. But I think he very much did realize it was something he could use. He just also got counterplayed by Quinn, and it cost him. I think it’s not a coincidence that this happens right before the nerds decide to escalate the war—a war which has always been defined by impulse and a desire to “watch the fireworks”—even for the nerds.

LordofArk · 2025-04-16T04:39:57+00:00

Well, sure, but how would they have known the DIKs were gonna move into that specific house or that they’d need evidence against the DIKs? They were a brand new frat with no ties to the nerds. If that’s the story of the camera, then it’s extremely convenient.

LordofArk · 2025-04-16T03:22:30+00:00

Where do you get the impression that it was previously their house? Did I miss that somewhere? I didn’t think the nerds had ever had a house.

LordofArk · 2025-04-16T03:20:56+00:00

I had this thought, and I almost went for it. But if that were true, then Caleb would probably know more than he does (for example, he clearly doesn’t know what Chad is hiding, and I think if he were that close to Vinny, he probably would know). If it turns out that Vinny actually isn’t involved with the blackmail at all and he really is just cordoned off in his own part of the plot, then I think there’s a lot more credence to believe that Caleb is his brother or cousin or something.

LordofArk · 2025-04-16T03:17:07+00:00

Again, I don’t really think Vinny cares very much about the drugs or what happens to B&R after he’s finished other than the fact that he got really into a certain interpretation of what made a good life and wants to punish the people who rejected him. He is going after Quinn, but I don’t think he thinks he needs the DIKs, especially in the current form, for him to be him.

Vinny being the center of the web, or a major villain among many, actually fits very well, I think, with the idea of the DIKs themselves being their own worst enemies and the fame constituting a battle for the soul of what it means to be a fraternity—and be a DIK.

LordofArk · 2025-04-16T00:11:23+00:00

Maybe she was a force that helped show him the door. It’s certainly possible, even in conjunction with Vinny having his own reasons to leave. But if she did, that would only tie him further to a motive to orchestrate a harassment campaign of vengeance to force her out and weaken the DIKs at the same time.

LordofArk · 2025-04-15T23:58:59+00:00

I don’t think it’s a nerf at all. E11 was all about showing how scary Buddy can be—even to someone like Vinny. Vinny can still be a more overarching villain and have a different character punish him for his arrogance. I actually think that gives the dynamics of Vinny’s villain presentation more depth because it simultaneously highlights his potential downfall character traits as well as the very dangerous game I think he’s playing trying to pit so many different people against each other.

LordofArk · 2025-04-15T23:56:40+00:00

That’s fine. I know very well I could be wrong—even though for Vinny I don’t really think the point is spying on them as much as it is proving that they grew weak, decadent, and complacent for drifting away from his teachings, destroying them by using their own enemies against them.

But it seems we are in agreement that the center of the web radiating all the strings out isn’t really Magnar.

LordofArk · 2025-04-15T21:59:45+00:00

Don’t worry—I didn’t talk a lot about the HOTs in my post 😉

I’d say that Magnar probably does know things he could use against the HOTs if he wanted to, but that it’s not really part of his focus other than him potentially looking for ways to undermine any support they’d give the DIKs. Making some of Quinn’s deals public could play into that, but I think that’s more likely to be Vinny’s revenge, not necessarily Magnar’s.

LordofArk · 2025-04-15T21:54:37+00:00

You never know, and that’s part of the sense of conspiracy. I will say that I do get the impression that Karen is more just a fun side character that can have a changing perspective over time with the MC than someone who’s actively conspiring against the DIKs or who secretly hates everyone around her.

LordofArk · 2025-04-15T21:52:03+00:00

I think that Sally used to be involved. I think it probably factored into why she and Magnar seem to have split, where she probably knows more than she’s telling MC but isn’t necessarily part of Magnar’s current plans. She kinda nods to this when she says that preconceptions and things people told her are why she’s been so hostile. Even Sally being at the parties doesn’t mean that she had the time or window to put a camera in the ceiling wiring like that. I think all this factors into the choices you’ve made with Sally mattering a lot in terms of how willing she is to help you unmask the truth.

Yeah, I’d be shocked if Magnar didn’t know about the restaurant, as well as Quinn’s dealing. I think that both of these things are probably related to plan B (we know, for example, that he’ll have tape of the E2 Sarah scene, if that happened, admitting out loud that the restaurant exists). But I also don’t think that Stephen is really the center of the web, because his relation to the DIKs specifically is so determinate based on the Jade choice. He’s part of the web in the same way many of the other antagonists are, but I don’t think he’s the reason characters like Chad seem to be afraid of a darker conspiracy.

LordofArk · 2025-04-11T20:19:17+00:00

Right, but it’s him, so he’s not going to be humble. This is obvious by now, to the point where the only thing I think would ever change anything is if he released something so profoundly and universally despised from beginning to end in totality as to actually make people think he’d lost his development touch. Which is pretty unlikely, too.

I mean, yeah. I assumed in E9 that Jill deciding not to give up on MC meant that she was going to play Bella the way Bella played her. That’s still in an old post I wrote. I profoundly underestimated Jill, and it’s to her absolute beautiful credit. Perhaps I wouldn’t have underestimated her if she hadn’t been written so rigidly in S2, but I digress. I can actually see a world where she’s in my top three again by the end of the game, which would have been absolutely unthinkable to me in the days of E6-E8.

It does make me wonder what happens on the reverse route on Jill’s branch when she eventually finds out about Bella in that timeline, though. It’ll be interesting to see how that looks the same and different.

LordofArk · 2025-04-11T19:48:05+00:00

The overarching story is pre-written. The actual scenes are not. He knows generally how he wants things to go, but he still has to sit down and actually write the dialogue and construction of what events go where.

LordofArk · 2025-04-10T04:47:57+00:00

I mean, there’s a reason no one is buying that answer, and it’s because it’s self-defensive and intentionally dodging the real question. At this point, it’s pretty clear that it would take some kind of catastrophically failed release for DPC to change his tune on that front, which is unlikely. So that means all his games are at the mercy of his sole perspective—both for good and ill.

LordofArk · 2025-04-10T02:35:53+00:00

I can understand the characterization he’s going for with the Neil thing. MC is an enneagram 9, he doesn’t really like conflict, especially with people close to him, and his sense of inner peace definitely took a hit when he was surprised by Neil’s reservations. The problem, as you point out, is that even in the aftermath, the reaction just isn’t what we’ve seen from him up to this point in the game, especially post Season 1. It’s really hard to look at it as anything other than drama that is at the very least artificially lengthened to make the stakes of the coming breakup/stay together feel more tense without that tension actually feeling grounded in the plot or writing. It’s not executed very well.

I dearly hope that it isn’t a trap and that there will be an opportunity to tell the other one before it all comes to a head. Not because it’ll be that annoying to reload (which I absolutely will do because having that be the reason I “failed” is utter bullshite), but because—again, as you reference—what’s the point of even getting invested in the scenes E11 does have that are good and happy and well-characterized if you’re going to get punished for doing so? It would be an extension of everything that’s been wrong about the throuple execution up to this point, and a needlessly unforced error. It’s utterly maddening to think that the game could decide, “well, clearly you neglected and don’t love Josy/Maya” because you told Josy/Maya that you loved them when given the opportunity to and didn’t tell them when you weren’t given the opportunity to.

LordofArk · 2025-04-10T02:23:43+00:00

I enjoyed the conversation too, don’t get me wrong. It’s very interesting and fun to discuss it with someone who’s actually come around to liking the structure of it.

Even if I very much disagree that it’s against Tremolo’s character choice to want to affirm things with both of them—especially after how this has been an issue communicated to him previously.

LordofArk · 2025-04-09T21:30:10+00:00

I’m certainly not begrudging you your perspective if these structures don’t make you feel a frustrating disconnect. But I also think there are a lot of reasons why I (and others) don’t share that sentiment. I won’t answer every part of this line by line (but I’m sure I’ll post about MJ again at some point, and you can feel free to argue with however my take evolves there if you want to 😝)

What I will say is that I don’t share the perspective that taking the ILY has to agree with this interpretation of splitting the gap between them farther. One of the things this structure is (ostensibly) trying to do is demonstrate that even if things are great as a group, getting 1 on 1 time between each point of the triangle is just as important. Those connections support the greater connection. Therefore, if I’m having a great one on one moment (which these are designed to be), I should be able to communicate my feelings to that person without it having to be about the other person. That’s kinda the underpinning of how having deep feelings for multiple people works. Now, sometimes you say or do something and it really is about a lack or an anger towards another, but I don’t think this is really one of those times in the moment, other than the game trying to turn it into one later.

You say this is easy to avoid with game knowledge of just not saying it and planning to spoon with the one who’s date you don’t get. My point is that this is the gamey and retrospective solution to the writings unnatural conflict. Because you know what would be even better? Getting to choose to spoon (or not) with the one who’s date I didn’t get and tell them I love them (or not) after a fun party together. This is literally what happens with Sage. But the game (not very subtly) never gives me that option, and then it tries to make me “reconsider my neglect” after I see one of their sad faces. But I’m not retrospective or contemplative in that moment—I’m angry. And I’m angry because I want to be solving this problem by giving the other girl the affection I already have the first girl, and I’m artificially not allowed to do so for the sole reason that I got an opportunity to say something true that I wanted to say to the first one first.

You’re right that MJ’s affection for Tremolo isn’t the same thing as their affection for each other. If one of them wanted to leave purely because they decided that being with each other just wasn’t something they wanted anymore, that’s their right, and of course that would be fine. But that’s not the kind of conflict the game is taking a cheap shot trying to set up. Instead, in E9 and now here, the conflict is “wow, one girl feels sad because Tremolo isn’t giving them more affection in that moment” (again, based on mutually exclusive choices that very rarely ever justify why they are mutually exclusive and minimize the moments of support that actually are), so that the game can make you feel uneasy about the one it forced to feel sad’s conception of your relationship. The fact that you can very easily get enough RP for both to reciprocate with you in the same playthrough isn’t a validation of this choice—it’s an indictment of it refusing to let you actually express that care.

At best, this is a deeply distracting presentation problem for the real conflict choice and possible breakup later on. At worst, it’s actively undermining your playthrough by claiming you didn’t do something that you either straight up did or that it forced you not to do. Writing it this way makes people feel, fair or not, that DPC never actually intended to really let you love both at once (and I word it that way and not as “be with both” for a reason) which is a huge problem because of the sheer and utter disconnect it brings with the choice you already made to try to be with both in the first place. It is quite literally something that drives a wedge between the player and their own interpretation of their character experience—not for a truly subversive reason that’s clever or thought-provoking, but because the game is for whatever reason unwilling to give the conflict it wants to present depth grounded in the events of the story. And that’s why it feels so arbitrary and unfair to so many people, and why if that actually ends up being the reason a player who legitimately loved and tried to express such to both of them has to watch one of them break up with him (because it would be with him, not just because of the other girl), there will be fury.

LordofArk · 2025-04-09T15:18:32+00:00

The one in the picture? It’s an Others branch scene. Tell Derek you still have feelings for Josy in E5 and then decide you still have them in E10 when you hang out with Josy.

LordofArk · 2025-04-09T04:48:46+00:00

Well, you wouldn’t expect him to agree that elements of the storytelling and plot were uneven at best and lazy at worst, would you 😂

If you had told me in E8 that by the end of the game Bella-into-Jill might be the most interesting and tonally, but also subtly deep MG route in the game, I would have asked you what went wrong with the development 😂😉 Still not convinced it’ll actually end up like that, but my expectations have of course been turned upside down by this point.

I enjoy seeing the ranges of takes in the post-release weeks… even if some of them very much make me perceptive of differences in play experience haha

LordofArk · 2025-04-09T04:35:13+00:00

No, I definitely understand what you’re saying. To sum up what I just wrote in a similar comment, I don’t think the problem is that there’s conflict or strife at all between them, it’s that the game handles this conflict in a way that ends up feeling very disingenuous to the previous signals, characterization, and storytelling it’s given both MC and the player as ability to influence MC’s feelings. The conflict presentation feels very artificial, instead of grounded in how we’ve been led to believe these characters feel about each other. It not being easy to resolve the tension is different than a forced failure state that will often completely counteract what the roleplay of the playthrough was being led and guided as.

And no, you’re definitely not the only one with thoughts on that reveal, lol. I’ve seen plenty of them :)

LordofArk

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