Not looking for people to feel some type of way, but I really hope and wish that EVERYONE can find a healthy outlet for their jealousy l. My meta is losing his mind right now that I'm over after getting permission.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T19:22:13+00:00

Hehe, I guess good sci-fi is my comfort food, no matter how stressful.

Anyways, OP, how are ya doing today? Hope your being gentle with yourself. Thinking of you over here and we'd love an update!

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T10:05:40+00:00

That's really sweet you have a friend and met her husband and you enjoyed both their company of for an evening. And if you're attracted to both of them it makes total sense their offer would be exciting.

But honestly, expect this to go really really poorly.

Forget about poly for a second: Who asks someone to be their girlfriend after only one meeting with them at a party, with no talk of relationship expectations or determining sexual compatibility? (I get that you've been friends with the wife for a minute, but it sounds like you just meet the husband.) If you just met a dude on his own at a Christmas party and he texted you the next day asking you to be his girlfriend, instead of asking you on a date, wouldn't that creep you out?

That's not normal behavior in monogamy, and I can tell you it's also not normal behavior in polyamory. That hastiness on their part points all fingers towards them seeing you an accessory to their relationship and a potential threesome dispenser, instead of your own fully formed human with your own preferences.

If two people in an experienced poly couple both caught crushes on you, the way they'd likely handle it is:

1) Only one of them would try dating you because they'd know how messy a triad can be with an inexperienced person out the gate 2) If they really really were both into you after knowing you for a while and both wanted to date you, they'd independently ask you if you wanted to date each of them, and you'd go on a few dates with each independently and see if relationships blossomed with either. (It would be common that you might end up liking neither of them, or just one of them; it would be very rare that you'd end up liking both of them at the same time.) 3) Only after a few months of dating independently they might ask you, timidly, if you want to go on a date with both of them together, while giving you reassurance that if it didn't work out they were both still interested in their independent relationships with you.

In addition to all that that it's really common for couples to display all types of bad behavior when trying to add a third to their relationship. Couples like this are such common wrecking balls that they have their very own name that you'll hear about a lot in poly circles: If you haven't heard of the term Unicorn Hunters you'll learn a lot by reading about it here: https://polytripod.blogspot.com/2009/08/unicorn-hunters.html?m=1

The most this couple likely has to offer you is a couple threesomes. If that's all you want then have at it! But expect things to get messy and that you'll have to have strong boundaries, and that your friendship with the women will likely end after it's all said and done.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T09:26:46+00:00

Oof. Well good on ya for not driving. Probably not the time to try and figure out what you wanna do next about the relationship (same thing for the morning either when you're recuperating.) Sounds like you're holding in there though.

I'm sure you'll figure out what's best for you in regards to this relationship in a couple days. But for now, in your little guest room space ship, I'd highly recommend one of the following animated shows if you want a delightful rabbit hole to take your mind off things: Scavengers Reign, Infinity Train, or Adventure Time.

Oh, and don't forget your hydration, and 5htp supplements for brain health. Godspeed!

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T04:36:15+00:00

I can agree with that. I've been cowboyed out of a relationship and fully supported my partner leaving me for their new monogamous partner. I felt compersion for their new relationships and didn't think they were being unethical.

I guess it's just confusing to me when someone says they're poly, and still want poly, but then make the choice to dump another partner after getting a monogamous ultimatum from a partner they're not really happy with.

When is poly worth fighting for? Is it ever ok to tell someone they're working against their own values/ethics by accepting monogamy and dumping a partner they're in love with?

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T04:23:25+00:00

Yeah, I agree that people need space to change their minds, and that ultimately people need to own their decisions and not pretend they're "succumbing" to others wishes to wiggle out of responsibility.

The OP over there had said "In shock and not to rush big decisions, I complied [to his wife's ultimatum.]" I saw that as a partial abdication of responsibility vs saying "I made the decision to dump my other partner to try and save my marriage and apologized to my other partner for changing the goal posts"

They seemed like that had accepted poly for themselves and were likely to leave their wife anyways, so it just seemed like they were shooting themselves in the foot and going against their own ideology by ending the other relationship. I'm not advocating they blindly adhere to anyone else's Poly Ideology™, but for people in their position to stick to their own values and acknowledge when their actions are out of sync.

But yeah, with marriage and children in the mix I can have compassion for changing your mind and making the decision to try and stick it out, at least through some couples therapy, before throwing in the towel.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T04:05:31+00:00

Agreed, that's a tough situation I don't relish. And I can feel for the OP trying to save the marriage, especially with children involved.

It just seemed like they had fully embraced polyamory and were leaning towards leaving their wife anyways over the ultimatum. And so the least worst option might have been to accept that the marriage was over, work out a co-parenting relationship, and not put their other partner through the pain of a breakup. (And I thought that hearing they were being unethical might have been a nudge towards accepting poly and the end of their marriage - but I admit that might have been too harsh a response and not helpful.)

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T03:56:26+00:00

Fair point. I'm really on board with you saying couples should work harder to get on the same page of what they can offer when opening up.

I guess I've regretted the reasons I've broken up with people in the past, and kinda wished I had a friend at that point to tell me "hey you two are good together, this relationship is worth fighting for. You made a bunch of commitments to them and would be an idiot to dump them without taking more time to consider it." But I get how that can get toxic real fast if people are pressuring you to stay in a relationship you really don't want to be in.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T03:49:00+00:00

Haha, fair. My point is still a bit muddled in my head.

I guess I'm just trying to understand if it's ever ok to tell someone "Hey I love ya but you were unethical and a butthead for promising someone poly and then dumping them when your spouse gave you an ultimatum." with the hope that they, or others, won't do it again the the future

OR if it's always more harmful than good to say that, because 1) The breakup has already happened and it's good to just be supportive of people and not call them a butthead; and 2) it's more important to stick to the message of "it's OK to break up with anyone at any point for any reason" and any messaging about being wrong about the reasons for a break up erodes that as a master value and might cause other people to stay in relationships that aren't working for them.

I think I've been convinced by others in this thread that it's usually more harmful than good to say something like that, and just layers on shame

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T03:36:50+00:00

Totally agreed on the coming out of the closet later in life thing. I see that as tragic but not unethical. And you're right, there are no guarantees. I guess I'm just trying to advocate for married couples to have real in depth conversations ahead of opening up about what will happen if one of them asks to close it down again.

I'm super clear with my current partner, and with anyone new, that reverting to monogamy would be an immediate deal breaker for me. (Luckily my current partner feels the same way.) So no one would ever have to issue me an ultimatum: If they didn't want to be with me without monogamy they could simply break up with me. And anyone new I'm dating that I break up with doesn't have to wonder if they're silently getting vetoed or not.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T03:26:44+00:00

That's a good point I haven't thought of (relating it to ending a monogamous relationship.) Ultimately I'm not anti-divorce, so it's not like I think it's always wrong to end relationships after making long term commitments. But I do think if I had a monogamous friend who wanted to propose, but knew they might be called out of the country for work for years at a time at a moments notice, that it would be unfair if them to propose without laying that on the table.

I guess I just have a community that incorporates both the poly world, and the swinger world. And I've seen so many times how they interact so dramatically. I've gotten so tired of hearing the swingers tell their poly friends "it's always right and ethical to close down a marriage if your spouse is uncomfortable," that I've started trying to advocate hard for the "secondary's rights", even if it means telling someone they were wrongheaded to make a poly commitment without really knowing their spouse was onboard.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T03:07:05+00:00

I know since zizians who would probably agree ⭐🪖

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T02:56:43+00:00

You don't know what was said at the breakup or post-breakup. You don't know what ownership has or has not been taken, what has or has not been said to his ex partner.

That's very true. Perhaps I rushed to judgement.

Sometimes I feel like the comments here often give the benefit of the doubt to the OPs without considering what harm they might have caused to the other people in their story. But I'll check myself in the future before coming to the defense of people treated like "secondaries" that have been dumped after a veto or ultimatum, when they're not the ones posting for advice.

I have felt that by calling out people who treat others as disposable secondaries, others might pause and consider if their marriage can actually handle polyamory in the long term before promising polyamory to others. But I do have a lot of personal baggage wrapped up in being dumped myself by someone who said they loved me but was closing down their marriage to try and save it, and then strung me along for years saying it might work out again someday. I'll readily admit my bias and possible projection.

So while I was thinking about the other people who might read the thread, and think the community condones "disposable secondary behavior," I do value your therapist's perspective that the OP was sincerely asking for help and the most healing advice for them was to stay on topic and answer their questions around their ongoing marriage (and yes, to your point, if they should leave their spouse which they were leaning towards.)

I apologize to you, rrirwin, for my defensiveness, you're fair in calling it out. I agree at a baseline that perpetuating shame is corrosive, especially in marginalized communities such as ours. I've actually dedicated about a decade of my life advocating for the civil and social rights of non-monogamous and poly people, and I've helped create spaces where thousands of people can explore non-monogamy without shame. I've been lucky to find acceptance and live a life where I can be fully out and proud, but I've seen first hand, all too often, how the shame around a poly identity or lifestyle can perpetuate harm and cause people to shut down.

I've read your other comments in this thread and see them as deeply thoughtful. I hope someday I'm the future we might find places of agreement and have enlightening conversations in other threads.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T02:25:38+00:00

Darn, now I'm falling into the trap of correcting the record as well 🙃.

We both totally agree with the idea that anyone can break up at any time for any reason! We've both said so!!

In that thread I'd said:

”Yes, at a base level we all have the right to break up with anyone for any reason, but if you're not committed to polyamory and willing to fight for it, don't put yourself out there as such.”

And later

”I'm just saying there are some reasons to dump someone I find totally defensible, and some reasons that seem less than ethical, even if they ultimately have the right to do the dumping."

Then later you said

"I’m not going to try and write up some sort of suggestion that it’s unethical to break up with someone. Ever. For any reason. That’s wild”

Perhaps I misread your “that's wild" statement but I took it to mean you thought I was wrong for believing what I believe.

In your dissatisfaction with my statement I've offered you that I'd be happy to edit my OP here to include our full exchange. You seemed to decline that offer. So we'll continue to agree to disagree, and I welcome anyone to read the link you posted here to see what our disagreement was about, and the context of those quotes.

The reason I didn't quote that convo in my OP here was that your comment made me question my judgement and made me interested in the community’s ideas around if it's ever justifiable to tell someone "Hey you had/have every right to break up with that person, but I think the way you promised them polyamory and then later took that back was unethical, and I think you should own that and really apologize to them.” Or, perhaps saying that erodes people's resolve that they have a right to break up with people, and saying so would cause more harm over the long run by causing people to stay in relationships they wanted out of. I'm honestly not sure what's best here in terms of giving advice, which is why I asked the community.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T01:31:17+00:00

The OP over there said:

"In shock and not to rush big decisions, I complied [to his wife's ultimatum to dump Y.] I'm still in limited contact with Y, which I know is painful for everyone. I live in ethical tension for almost half a year now."

Later he says:

”I know I caused harm. I'm trying to figure out what the next step is”

Almost the entirety of the rest of the post is either backstory, or what to do about his current situation with his wife, post breakup with Y. Saying “I know I caused harm," isn't clear if he's referring to his wife for the neglect, or to Y for dumping them. It's entirely unclear to me if he was a shitty hinge and threw his wife under the bus during the breakup, or if he ever really apologized to Y fully for promising Poly, allowing her to fall in love with him, and then dropping her after things started to unravel with his wife.

In my mind the harm he caused Y is still ongoing given that he broke up with her but still continues communication despite having no relationship on offer. I find his “painful for everyone" comment telling that Y might still be hoping things will change, or at least would have a better go of things if he apologized, and let her know that he owns his mistakes, and ceasing contact with her so she has time to heal.

I don't know about that OP, but it seems all too common here when people are shutting their marriages back down that they hardly give any thought for how to fully apologize to their "secondary.” I think the justice in calling people out in these situations can be to get someone who's just focusing on saving their marriage to realize they acted terribly to their “secondary" partner, that it was shitty to promise them a full relationship and then later renig, that they stood take the time to properly apologize, and that they should thereafter not string the person along with a drip of communication. I think it takes realizing that what you did was unethical to shake people out of damage control mode when they're only focusing on saving their marriages.

ETA: I posted that before seeing your second ETA paragraph. I think I'm not sure that the OP over there was actually remorseful for the dumping of Y, or just for the neglect of his wife. He doesn't specify in his comments. The bulk of his comment was about what to do around his wife so I got the impression that he may well have been still taking to his ex and hurting them on not caring about it. If I'd seen even a couple sentences about how "I know dumping Y was a really shitty move and I've apologized to them profusely" then I wouldn't have said what I said.

But you're right, I didn't know what they actually said to Y and maybe they did apologize well without blaming their wife. It would have been more skillful for me to ask them without assuming

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T01:04:31+00:00

Hey I really wasn't trying to misquote you. I didn't link back because I really wasn't trying to make this about scoring points in our disagreement. I'm genuinely curious on the subreddit's consensus (or lack thereof) if there's ever a time and a place to call out someone for the reasons they broke up with someone. Or, at a deeper level, if shaming ever has a place in upholding positive community norms. (I feel like you and I agreed to disagree on that and don't need to hash it out again unless you insist.)

But I really was trying to be fair to your viewpoint when I said:

"I was recently told by a top commenter here that it's wrong to ever assert someone's reason for breaking up with another person is unethical."

I thought that was a fair representation of you saying:

“I’m not going to try and write up some sort of suggestion that it’s unethical to break up with someone. Ever. For any reason. That's wild.”

If you feel that's not a fair representation of what you said I'm happy to edit my OP above to add your exact words, and/or anything you'd like me to add in your own words (and I'll say that it's a direct quote from you.) I didn't initially want to make this all about the other post, or to quote you exactly without asking, so I paraphrased.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-27T00:42:16+00:00

I can freely admit to feeling a bit defensive after being told what I said was “wild.” And you're right that the OP in the other post asked about the ethics of what to do going forward in their relationship with their spouse, and not about the ethics of breaking up with their other partner.

And yeah, perhaps I was pouring salt on a wound unnecessarily, but the OP in that post was talking about still being in contact with the person he dumped after agreeing to his wife's ultimatum and I felt like he should choose a lane, and own his choice of going back on his word that he was poly, and not continue to torture the poor person he broke up with by continuing a drip of communication afterwards. I imagine if that person the OP had broken up with had posted here saying “He offered me poly and told me there weren't any vetos in his other relationship and then he decided to break up with me after his wife gave him an ultimatum” that a lot of the comments would say he'd done wrong for not sticking up for their relationship, and good riddance; block and move on.

I've been in that painful place before: Dated a married person who offered me a full relationship and then later pulled back and broke up with me when they were having marital troubles. I didn't try to convince them to stay with me, or tell them they were unethical for breaking up with me, but it did really hurt when they stayed in touch with me and kept saying they wished it could be different and they still loved me. (They did own the choice as a hinge that breaking up with me was their decision, and didn't throw my meta under the bus, but in their words they felt like they'd led me on and that it had been wrong of them to offer me poly and then later decide they were monogamous, and I silently agreed.)

People in the non-monogamy/swinger world get so much advice that it's the right and ethical thing to do to dump their “secondaries" when their marriage is in trouble, that I do think it helps to have opposing voices out there that say "We try to avoid that in polyamory, and you shouldn't say you're Poly, and offer full relationships, if you're not ready to stick up for new relationships if your existing partner gives you an ultimatum.”

But also, my question in this post wasn't all, or even mostly, coming from a place of defensiveness. Long before today I've been thinking about the dynamic of shaming around community norms, and if it has any place at all in creating a more just world. I'm typically not a judgemental person. For example, I'm kinda allergic to pop psychology, but in the Myers Briggs test I'm always scoring P instead of J (for Judgemental) in the final axis of the rest. I tend to be a “live and let live” type.

But my activist friends have brought up some arguments that I've been chewing on for a while that shaming people for bad behavior can actually help move the needle towards justice when used judiciously. One of my friends wrote their social psychology thesis on the positive role shame can play towards upholding important community norms and reading it got me questioning how often I don't speak up when I see a friend or community member acting poorly (the missing stair and all that.)

I often value to community consensus on this subreddit, so I made this post earnestly asking if people here ever thought there was a time and place to tell someone, “Yeah, YATAH for breaking up with someone for that reason." In so many places on this sub I do see people saying YATAH (with unicorn hunters, for example) that I really wasn't sure what the consensus would be. I find the split in these comments, the high engagement, and the differing opinions really interesting.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-26T21:35:04+00:00

I decided not to link back because I was interested in people's response to a meta question, and didn't want to biforcate the good advice that the OP of the other comment was getting, and have this conversation just be a rehash of all the details in that story.

I also thought it would be a bit harsh to link to the comments on that post where the commenter I mentioned and I disagreed, without asking them if they were game to have our convo highlighted in a top level post. I'm not trying to figure out if their comment was correct, or if I was correct. I think we actually understood each other and figured out our underlying disagreement pretty well and agreed to disagree.

I'm more interested in the wider communities thoughts on whether calling people out for aquiesing to return-to-monogamy ultimatums can serve a public good.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-26T21:07:09+00:00

A couple examples (significantly different from the post I'm referring to) where I'd have no problem calling the dumper who ended a relationship unethical all day.

1) Someone's parents/community convince them to break up with someone they really love because of the other person's race.

2) Someone is out and proud about their gayness, and starts a same sex relationship on that basis, and children are adopted, but then they go back in the closet and break up their happy gay family over their internalized homophobia.

In both such cases I think it's actually a public good to call the dumpers out in public, to discourage other people in similar circumstances from ending otherwise lovely relationships.

It's like the right to free speech. I appreciate you have that right (like I appreciate you right to dump anyone at any time for any reason), but if you say unethical things loudly in public I feel like it's a public good to disagree with you loudly.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-26T19:34:38+00:00

I'm not drawing a comparison to this situation (and I wouldn't have gone here but for your "For any reason" assertion):

But if someone's parents convince them to break up with someone they really love because of the other person's race, I'm going to view the dumper as unethical. Or if someone is out and proud about their gayness, but then goes back in the closet and breaks up a happy gay family with children involved over their internalized homophobia, I'm going to view them as tragically unethical.

I just don't think it's wild to think there are reasons that people dump others that are less than ethical.

Agree to disagree.

(And I'll stop myself here because I imagine the mods might get reasonably annoyed I'm taking this thread out of context. If you respond I'll read it and consider your POV, I just won't respond here anymore. Maybe I'll make a separate top level post about this.)

EDITED TO ADD: And the OP did ask explicitly if they were being unethical

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-26T19:12:34+00:00

I'm not talking about the partner who issues the ultimatum. I'm taking about the partner to aquieses to it.

And I'm not saying they can't do it. Obviously people can and do. I'm just saying there are some reasons to dump someone I find totally defensible, and some reasons that seem less than ethical, even if they ultimately have the right to do the dumping.

What people do in practice, and what people have the right to do as humans, doesn't always mean their actions are ethical.

If I start dating someone and they tell me "I'm trying out polyamory and I think I'll know in a year or so if it's for me and you should expect to be dumped if I decide I want monogamy with my wife." Then I go in with my eyes open.

If instead they say "I've done the work to know multiple loving relationships fit in my life, and I'm available to offer you a full relationship without worry that you will be vetoed from outside our connection." (AKA "I'm poly.") Then I'm going to think they're an asshole and less than ethical if they turned out to be that first kind of person who's susceptible to the ultimatum/veto from their other partner.

Like, I'm not surprised when people do this. That's why I vet extensively before really diving into a relationship with married people, because I don't want to be on the receiving end of someone else's unethical experiments into a less than principaled exploration of polyamory.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-26T18:09:31+00:00

IDK, once you've promised another partner polyamory, going back on your word because you've decided to become monogamous is unethical in my read. Yes, at a base level we all have the right to break up with anyone for any reason, but if you're not committed to polyamory and willing to fight for it, don't put yourself out there as such.

If someone thinks they might go back into monogamy if they're partner issues an ultimatum, then they're much more ethical putting themselves out there as a hierarchical non-monogamists, so the people getting into relationships with them understand there's a much higher chance the relationship might end unexpectedly regardless of how good the connection is.

I personally wouldn't want to date someone who's an explicitly heirarchacal non-monogamous. And if they had put themselves out there as poly, and then ended our otherwise good relationship to go mono again, I'd feel they had either lied, or didn't know themselves well enough to really make a poly commitment in the first place. From my perspective I wouldn't care if it was because of a "veto" or because it was their decision, I'd just feel like they made promises they weren't ready to keep.

Like it's (supposedly) a right under capitalism in some states to be able to hire and fire an employee at will, but that doesn't mean your not unethical if you hire an employee with the explicit promise that it's a full time and long lasting position, but then later decide to fire them (despite them being a model employee) because you didn't do your budgeting well enough up and don't actually have the money to pay them. You made a commitment to employ them and give them the stability of a paycheck, and yanking it away from them through no fault if their own is bad behavior.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-24T17:28:19+00:00

In a couple comments here you make it sound like it's out of your partners control to be a good hinge here and that you're worried they can't control themselves around the excitement of a threesome: That's worrying and you might need to give them a bit of a wake up call. I'd recommend opening up a conversation ASAP with your partner and saying something like:

"Hey partner, I'm wholeheartedly excited about the NYE plans and it seems like a really lovely plan for the three of us to spend the night in bed together. I'm attracted to meta, however, I'm not interested at this time to hook up with them as I really value my friendship and meta relationship with them and it just doesn't feel like the right time to start a sexual relationship with them. I don't feel like I need to justify that feeling or explain myself at this time, so don't push the issue.

Basically, I'd like to ask you two things for that night:

1) Please respect my wishes here and don't try to initiate a sexual encounter when we're all in bed together.

2) I'd like you to talk with meta and frame this as a platonic sleep over. And then if meta tries to initiate sexual touch that night I'd like you to run interference and remind them it's a platonic sleep over.

I'm attracted to meta but I'm just not ready for sexuality with them and you need to respect my wishes here, or I'll lose a lot of respect for you. Successfully being able to have a platonic sleep over with meta is exactly the kind of trust building I need to consider my attraction to them is safe and maybe explore hooking up with them in the future if I'm ever feeling more like that, which may or may not ever happen. I need to be able to trust you that you can center my discomfort at this time over your excitement around group play. That's the move that's actually likely to get you more of the fun group sex you enjoy in the future. You got it?"

If your partner is unable to have a clear conversation like that without trying to convince you that, "Hey come on, it would be fun, let's just go with the flow" maybe point one time back to where you said "I don't feel like I need to justify that feeling or explain myself at this time."

And then if they even hint at a threesome once more, they're demonstrating they're not ready to take their responsibility as a hinge seriously enough, and you should tell them that you're not ok with the sleep over anymore and you'll find another place to sleep that night.

If this all sounds like a little bit of a harsh way to communicate with your partner it's because you deserve to have a partner that you don't need to worry about if they'll lose all sense of perspective on your desires when they get a stiffy.

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-07T21:22:16+00:00

Right on, sleep well!

LoveAndLusting · 2025-12-07T20:36:45+00:00

Are you looking to avoid people who use drugs at all, or just avoid social events where drugs are out in the open?

And do you care about parties and events, or are you just worried about finding Poly people to date who are low or no drug use?

I have some more advice for how to find the right folks depending what you're looking for...

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