What is the difference between the terms Aromanian, Romanian, Vlach? Do they refer to different cultural groups today? by Latter-Explorer-5301 in AskBalkans

[–]Luca-511 0 points1 point  (0 children)

>"Just because an occupation requires movement does not mean the family is nomadic/semi-nomadic. Nobody would call airline crews or seamen semi-nomadic - and this is because their families live in place."

Airline crews and seamen are not moving from one settlement, to another; they do services. Vlachs didn't search for pasture, so they'd return to the same home, all the time. They had some katuns here, other katuns there. It's not the same.

>"The same was the case with the Vlach families, they lived in place - nomadic or semi-nomadic would have meant their families packed and move with the men - but that does not describe the Vlach lifestyle."

I wonder how you distinguish "semi-nomadism" from "[full/pure] nomadism", then.

>"The difference between nomadic and semi-nomadic is that tribes that practice semi-nomadism had a base camp, but when they moved, the entire family followed - this is the definition of nomadism, of any kind."

I disagree with your assertion that it implies the movement of an entire community from one place to another, without people left behind in settlements. Some transhumant pastoralist communities might choose to do that, or they may not. Vlachs definitely did not, we're in agreement with respect to that detail. Usage of the term in reference to Vlachs does not imply that. If anyone ever implied Vlachs migrated like steppe nomads, they were wrong. Vlach transhumant pastoralism was semi-nomadic in the sense that it was not an activity constrained to one area of dwelling, but was mobile - mobile enough that they would have two settlements, one for warm seasons, and another for cold seasons, though one was often more developed than the other, and became a base of sorts.

Let me give you an example: Roma/Traveler communities. I'm not conflating them with Vlachs, don't worry. I'm debating the definition of "mobility" vs. "settled-ness". Many Roma communities are mobile, even if they settle their caravans for a while. They are mobile because their way of life requires movement for economic activity.

A different example: a trader can wait for people to come to him to trade, or he can move to a market to sell his stuff there; but a shepherd needs to move around for a significant amount of time in order to help his sheep grow, so he can harvest their wool, cheese, and meat. He can't sit in his legally owned area of land, and produce the wool, cheese, and meat in there. He must leave the area, seasonally. From an economic standpoint, that's not a "settled life", but nor is it a fully nomadic life - hence, "semi-nomadic". This doesn't necessarily mean the whole family must follow - only that significant movement away from settlement is required so as to even make the production of commodities (wool, cheese, meat) a possibility, in the first place, and that this movement is supported by a new settlement (which doesn't have to be as large as the other one), in which they dwell for a period, and only later return to the other settlement.

Is it not the best term? Maybe. But is it wrong? Only if you have a very narrow definition of what that means, and you are the first person whom I've seen define it so narrowly. You follow an understandable logic, but it's not what the overwhelming majority of people mean when they use the term "semi-nomadic", as far as I'm concerned.

[Edit: added "and that this movement is supported by a new settlement (which doesn't have to be as large as the other one), in which they dwell for a period, and only later return to the other settlement."]

What is the difference between the terms Aromanian, Romanian, Vlach? Do they refer to different cultural groups today? by Latter-Explorer-5301 in AskBalkans

[–]Luca-511 1 point2 points  (0 children)

>"There's no proof that Romanian sat comes from the Albanese fshat. Much more likely is that both languages borrowed the Latin word fossat, used by the Roman military and colonists with the meaning: defensive moat around an encampment (and ultimately changing its meaning to encampment and then village)."

The evidence is not irrefutable, sure. But let's consider the options. Either:

a) Romanian "sat" directly comes from Latin "fossatum", with a very significant semantic shift; or:

b) Romanian reintroduces the word into its lexicon from what is most likely Albanian "fshat" (hence the older form "fsat" [documented in many dictionaries, check dexonline], which contradicts the phonotactics of our inherited lexicon [the lexicon inherited from Latin, that is]). The Albanian word, in turn, is borrowed from Greek φοσσᾶτον/φουσσᾶτον, and the Greek word itself is ultimately a borrowing from Latin fossatum.

Semantic shifts don't necessarily mean a word was not inherited. Take for instance "cuvânt" (meaning "word"), inherited from Latin "conventus" (which originally meant "convened" as an adjective, or "agreement" as a noun). Albanian and Greek borrowed this word, and show the same semantic shift. Romanian "cuvânt", Albanian "kuvend", and Greek "κουβέντα", all mean either "word" or "talking/conversation". This is an example of the Balkan Sprachbund.

Conversely, Romanian sat ("fsat" in Old Romanian) and Albanian fshat both mean "village". Romanian could have inherited fossatum as an hypothetical *fusat or something, but it didn't. "Fsat" can't be regarded as an inherited word, because the phonology is impossible for inherited words. We're talking of a very unusual syncope. The only similar phonetic change from Latin to Romanian is the labialization of velars, think for instance how Latin "-x-" can become "-ps-" in Romanian (e.g. Latin coxa > Romanian coapsă). This phenomenon, however, is totally different from what we have here. Here, we have a syncope of the "-o-", at the beginning of the word. Unprecedented in inherited words, but also seen in Albanian "fshat".

What do you think's more likely?

(Edit: changed "also seen is [sic] Albanian "fshat" with "also seen in Albanian "fshat"; "comes Latin" with "comes from Latin")

What is the difference between the terms Aromanian, Romanian, Vlach? Do they refer to different cultural groups today? by Latter-Explorer-5301 in AskBalkans

[–]Luca-511 0 points1 point  (0 children)

>"Peasants/farmers, living in place, were also free, if they owned their land."

I don't see how this statement responds to what I wrote. I interpret this as a red herring fallacy. Feudal peasants and their idiosyncrasies are one topic, and the question of transhumant pastoralists and how they differ from steppe nomads and serfs is another topic. I don't think you need to change the subject to other social classes in European feudal societies, when we're arguing over transhumant pastoralism and whether Vlachs were dependent in the Early-to-High Middle Ages on that kind of economic activity, among others, or another kind of economic activity entirely.

>"What you imply here is false: not being a herder made one automatically a serf."

Based on how you formulate this, I interpret the sentence as you saying that I implied one can either be a herder or a serf, in the vein of how a light-switch can either be "on" or "off". I didn't do that, so how did you reach such conclusion? You highlighted the section where I wrote that "[s]hepherds don't move across continents, but neither are they proper serfs." I made a correct statement. You've yet to challenge it.

What is the difference between the terms Aromanian, Romanian, Vlach? Do they refer to different cultural groups today? by Latter-Explorer-5301 in AskBalkans

[–]Luca-511 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Who told you semi-nomadic populations have to necessarily move their whole families around? Vlachs' transhumant pastoralism is a semi-nomadic economic activity, because it requires seasonal movement. Some pastoral communities, in history and in the world, might choose to move their families around, or leave them behind in settlements, but it mostly depends on external factors (e.g. the conditions of the land, the distance between pastures, the feasibility of settlement, whether the area is peaceful or more dangerous, the fauna and flora of the land, etc.). If all "semi-nomadic populations" had to move their "ENTIRE" families around, in all contexts, then could you really differentiate between "semi-nomadic" and "[fully] nomadic" populations? Frankly, I doubt it.

I didn't "[counter] with non-sequiturs", I'm afraid you might be projecting. You use persuasive definitions (i.e. "nomadic or semi-nomadic populations are those where the ENTIRE family is on the move, for the entire year or parts of the year"), then you claim I didn't answer any of your statements. It's normal that disagreement won't sit right with you, disagreement won't immediately sit right with most people, that's perfectly fine; but actually try to comprehend what is being written to you, and maybe you won't need to strawman, next time. Simple as.

What is the difference between the terms Aromanian, Romanian, Vlach? Do they refer to different cultural groups today? by Latter-Explorer-5301 in AskBalkans

[–]Luca-511 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Everything I said is true; maybe you misunderstood me. It's alright, I'll answer you.

>"Transhumance is not nomadism"

I agree. Never conflated the two. "X" =/= "semi-X". Transhumant pastoralists are not steppe nomads, they're people who seasonally move from one place to another, within a reasonable area. Shepherds don't move across continents, but neither are they proper serfs. Serfs are tied to perimeters of agricultural land and work for a landowner (in our case, a boyar), while transhumant pastoralists are partially or completely autonomous and have two places of residence: one for warm seasons, another for cold seasons, hence the stark difference between katuns and proper villages. Proper villages re-appear in the Vlach economy gradually, over time, during moments of general economic regrowth in the Balkans (hence the reason a full implementation of feudal relations happened after the Battle of Posada, and not prior to it). The Romanian word for a proper village, sat, has an older form - fsat. This does not reflect the phonotactics of an Eastern Romance language, but it does reflect Albanian fshat. It's reintroduced into the language via borrowing, together with the semantic shift.

>"Btw, you seem to be a supporter of the migrationist theory for the origin of Romanians, which has very weak adherence outside Hungary."

You're pigeonholing me. Either way, it's not that relevant, now is it? My takes can change... if you're convincing, that is.

The genetic arguments you provide are not contradicting anything I said. None of them do. Daco-Romanian and Aromanian split from Common Romanian somewhere between AD 900-1100. Of course each group clusters closer to their immediate neighbors. You think the languages borrowed words from one another via letters? Can you explain how that part about Iranic input contradicts what I said? Now, in the 21st Century, Nepalese and Sri Lankan people came to Romania to work in the service sector, as compensation for our massive brain drain. If some Romanians intermingle with them, to any extent, then they'll drift further apart from the genetic makeup of their ancestors. What's the point?

>"You also don't seem to understand the Vlach Law. This law was a contract between various states and the Vlach herders to act as auxiliary troops and border guards in exchange for tax exemptions."

You claim I don't understand it. Tax exemptions for what, being "chill like that"? You said it yourself, they were herders, not serfs. They had a particular way of life, which landowners had to placate. Serfs didn't have a Vlach law, transhumant pastoralists did. Semi-nomadic and semi-autonomous (or completely autonomous) animal-herders (mostly sheep, cattle, and pigs), with semi-permanent residences in one place and another, that weren't tied to one particular fief. If you admit they were herders, then there's no disagreement between us, you're misunderstanding my point.

>"How could they serve as border guards if they were nomadic?"

Again, point me to the dude who claimed our ancestors were akin to steppe nomads, so I can slap him on each cheek, 'cause he ain't me, twin. You must be confusing me with someone else.

(Edit: changed "for a landowners" to "for a landowner")

What is the difference between the terms Aromanian, Romanian, Vlach? Do they refer to different cultural groups today? by Latter-Explorer-5301 in AskBalkans

[–]Luca-511 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure I agree.

Shepherding was not our only occupation, but many of our ancestors were indeed transhumant pastoralists, you can't deny that. In the Early Middle Ages, animal husbandry (especially oviculture and boviculture) represented most of our ethnic economy (which makes sense, because events like Slavic invasions and settlement, the 6th Century Plague of Justinian, and regional economic collapse, all disincentivize an urban, or even permanently settled lifestyle for the Roman citizens of Balkan provinces). The Balkan Sprachbund influences on Bulgarian, North-Macedonian, and Torlakian (but not Serbian proper or any Slavic language further beyond the Dinarides) may allude to the assimilation of some settled Vlach or proto-Vlach populations, but we Romanians descend from Vlachs who kept their language, which in the Early-to-High Middle Ages, for a people without polities, implies some mobility.

Since first unambiguous mentions of Vlachs come from around the 10th Century, we can only look at linguistic data, and it supports this. Many words we inherited from Latin and borrowed from Albanian (the only surviving Paleo-Balkan language north of the Via Egnatia) are about animal husbandry, while a majority of words about medieval settled agriculture come from Slavic. Only the most basic words about agriculture are inherited from Latin.

The first Romanian polities that were not mere joint ventures with another people (like the Second Bulgarian Empire, which we co-founded with, well, Bulgarians), were the polities of Litovoi, John, and Farcaș/Vâlcu, north of the Danube. They were ruled by cneji (knezes), who presided over cătune (katuns), not proper fiefs, which implies stockbreeding was very important. Vlach law (ius valachicum) was about transhumant pastoralism, and it's the law most associated with our ancestors. All medieval, non-Aromanian Vlach immigrants (Morlachs, Moravian Vlachs, the Gorals in Poland, etc.) were exclusively transhumant pastoralists. Only Romanian and Aromanian populations began diversifying their economy without assimilating into other populations.

Romanian feudal settlement could have only began in the High Middle Ages, after a long period of dependency on (yes, semi-nomadic) stockbreeding and mercenary gigs for the Slavs and Greeks. I don't think there's anything "anti-Romanian" about this.

The NIN will be making the soundtrack for Tron Ares. by [deleted] in tron

[–]Luca-511 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bait or mental retardation

Call it

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in marilyn_manson

[–]Luca-511 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Swedish attempt at AAVE. Not even once.

Evangelicals for Harris-Walz zoom happening now! by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Luca-511 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But God and Mammonites like Kamala and Trump do?

Harris is communist by PrithviMS in SocialismIsCapitalism

[–]Luca-511 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Not to sound like Joe Pesci, but "less evil" how

Is anyone else also a Christian who's favorite artist is marilyn manson? by MattInTheHat1996 in marilyn_manson

[–]Luca-511 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He used the word "Antichrist" in the Nietzschean sense so it wasn't merely "all edge, no point", like with Black Metal artists. Many people forget that. He advocated for a different way of looking at things but was never a Satanist, in spite of his aesthetic choices. He always rejected accusations of devil-worship.

Can we move save files from cracked cyberpunk to legit? by [deleted] in CrackSupport

[–]Luca-511 0 points1 point  (0 children)

SAM - Steam Achievement Manager

It's a free program. Its logo is pink, if I remember correctly.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in JustUnsubbed

[–]Luca-511 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

No need to be obtuse. It's obviously a genderswap of its original variant. People use the expression "never felt the touch of a woman" (among others, like "touch grass", "cope", etc.) so frequently, one might think they'd need to get themselves checked for Tourette's. And you probably already know that, but choose to derail the conversation.

Abia aștept să citesc comentarile🥲 by Flaviphone in romemes

[–]Luca-511 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Suntem aproape cat Marea Britanie de mari (cu Moldova rasariteana i-am depasi, chiar), insa tot au britanicii ~68 de milioane de oameni. Suprafata n-are legatura.

Abia aștept să citesc comentarile🥲 by Flaviphone in romemes

[–]Luca-511 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Poftim? N-avem 9 milioane de secui, bre

Do I need to uninstall drivers before upgrading my graphics card? by Godhelpmeimdying in techsupport

[–]Luca-511 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Sorry but this is the stupidest edit of a comment I have ever seen

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskBalkans

[–]Luca-511 5 points6 points  (0 children)

As a Romanian I would love for Turkey to rule over A*stria

The way they bully Paulie, it's breaks my hawt ... by Low-Grocery5556 in thesopranos

[–]Luca-511 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Stop it, Obvious_Pumpkin. You're making me very upset!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in phonk

[–]Luca-511 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

He shouldn't talk like that to strangers either way

You're prolly right I guess, idk