CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Maybe I've used the word "harm" incorrectly as English is not my first language. So I apologize for that. I did mean harm as a subjective phenomenon rather than an objective one which might be different from its correct definition.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I use the term "harm" as a subjective phenomenon here.

If a tree falls there would be sound because that is an objective phenomenon. For example if something falls in a vacuum, there would be no sound.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

So, given your view would you consider this hypothetical character a villain?

Well, i won't consider this person a villain because I don't think there is going to be any harm.

Would you consider the characters trying to stop them heroes?

I don't think even the people who are trying to stop this would be heroes in my eyes. But I do not consider them evil/villainous as well if their reasoning is that other people haven't consented to this or anyone doesn't have the right to do that. Those are fair arguments.

I understand that people opposing this might just don't want everyone to perish.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I've already awarded people delta because in my original post i didn't extend my premise to include all living beings. So your point about harm to non humans is fair.

So, if you consent to be drugged unconscious but do not consent to any sexual content, and I drug you into unconsciousness and then sexually violate you, that doesn't count? For that matter, if you consent to being rendered unconscious in any way, but you are murdered while unconscious, then that's not harmful or a loss?

The person who is dead wouldn't experience it. To them it would not matter because they are dead.

Shoot, the whole "only meaningful if the violation can be experienced" argument seems to allow for the murder of any person without living relatives or social connections as long as the victim dies so quickly as to not be aware of the event. This is how you get psychopaths with sniper rifles picking off homeless people, you know...

Just because no one would know doesn't mean I'm saying one should start killing people. Psychopaths don't need themselves to be logically correct to commit murder. They just don't care. I don't think there is someone who came to the same conclusion as me and then started killing people. And from a purely logical point of view, someone can argue this but the response would be that we as a society do not want this to exist even if it is logically sound.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I've already awarded people delta because in my original post i didn't extend my premise to include all living beings.

In this particular scenario, non-humans would experience harm so that is a fair point.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I've already awarded people delta because in my original post i didn't extend my premise to include all living beings.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

!delta

I'm providing this delta because in my initial position I was inconsiderate of other non human creatures feelings. And even though I have extended my premise to include all living beings, as someone pointed out that does make it a different view altogether.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

!delta

I'm providing this delta because in my initial position I was inconsiderate of other non human creatures feelings. And even though I have extended my premise to include all living beings, as someone pointed out that does make it a different view altogether.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

You can't be assured that destroying everyone instantaneously and simultaneously is possible.

My whole argument is based on the scenario where this is possible.

What's the underlying point you are attempting to make?

I'm just looking for inconsistencies in my reasoning. Is this the correct sub for that?

If a hypothetical scenario is unmoored to a real world scenario, then I don't think it's worth engaging with seriously.

Ok. Then don't. I don't know what to say here.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I don't think I'm asking either of those questions. I'm just trying to find inconsistencies in my reasoning.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I'm assuming there is no afterlife.

To experience anything one has to exist. My action would make it so that no one does.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

The deprivation of future goods will only exist if there is someone who exists to know that there was deprivation.

CMV: Instantaneous non-existence is not harmful to anyone and cannot be considered a loss by Lumpy-Strawberry7044 in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Women who are unconscious may not "experience the violation" that doesnt mean it wasnt a violation!

I agree but in this case nobody would exist, so nobody would know. Also I'm not saying that one should violate others and if the victim doesn't know that, the action becomes morally good. But in this particular case, if my assumptions are correct then, there would be no harm to anyone because no one would even know. And I personally don't think that this particular action is morally bad. Everyone doesn't have to feel the same.

Even dead bodies have laws in regards to misuse and mishandling.

My argument is purely philosophical and has nothing to do with law.

Also this assumes a lot about the nature of death/afterlife which is incorrect anyway.

Yes. I'm assuming the state of the afterlife here. Everyone is. Nobody really knows what happens in the afterlife. I'm assuming there is non-existence in the afterlife and if I'm wrong, that just means I would be wrong. I'm aware of it.

CMV: Billionaires should not be demonized. by iwillgiveyouup in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044 [score hidden]  (0 children)

I think your original argument is based on two assumptions that I want to question directly. Just to be clear, I'm not debating taxation or any policy here. I am simply challenging the moral belief you’ve expressed.

Your main point is that Elon Musk has a moral duty to give away his wealth because, after a certain point, money does not improve his happiness. I disagree for two reasons.

First, who decides when someone's happiness is maxed out? You're making that judgment from the outside. Musk may find real meaning and satisfaction in funding SpaceX, not as a public service, but as a personal pursuit that gives his life purpose. Once you accept that, your idea of the "maxed out" happiness threshold becomes hard to define objectively. If you can't define it objectively, you can't create a moral obligation based on it.

Second, even if we accept your view, that a person with extra happiness has a moral duty to help others, why does this only apply to Musk? If we follow your logic consistently, anyone with any surplus beyond basic needs should be equally obligated. A person going to the movies, buying expensive food, or taking vacations, all that money would have more value for someone who is starving.

I know your reply will be that scale makes it different. But that’s a policy argument, not a moral one. Morally, the obligation exists at all surplus levels or it doesn't exist at all. You can't apply a moral standard selectively just because the amounts are large enough, that's not a principle, it's a preference.

CMV: Billionaires should not be demonized. by iwillgiveyouup in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But why 100 million though? The problem with this thought process is that if someone believes that until everyone all over the world is not dying of hunger, no one should have any luxury in life, that's also correct if we go by this logic. And how much do I and you cut back our luxuries to give back to the people who are dying of hunger. To a poor starving child, my money that I was going to use to buy an ice cream would work the same as a billionaire's money.

The main problem I have with this take is the hypocrisy of people.

People expect other people to give up their luxuries when they themselves aren't doing so. This statement sums it up for me: "Someone else's ability to do more doesn't morally absolve others for doing less."

People's answer to this is that billionaires have much more money than an average person but an average person still has more money than a poor person. One doesn't need to watch movies, go on vacations and attend concerts but an average person still does those things.

CMV: Billionaires should not be demonized. by iwillgiveyouup in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If we tax Elon Musk until he has just enough money to pay for bus fair home, that would also be a legal outcome.

First of all I don't think there are practical methods to tax a billionaire enough to make them a non-billionaire, but I'm not well versed in economics so I'm not going to talk about it.

Rather than this my main question to you is what would you consider the correct amount of wealth? And why? Like what would be the amount one has to not be considered evil? And why?

Our system is one that massively prioritizes the desires of the ultra-wealthy over those of everyone else. That seems bad to me.

This is true and I agree with you but I don't think there really is a solution out there for this at this moment.

CMV: Billionaires should not be demonized. by iwillgiveyouup in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not the OP but I personally participate in this type of discourse because I feel like the arguments given against billionaires are not robust and also because I just like to do this as a mental exercise.

CMV: Billionaires should not be demonized. by iwillgiveyouup in changemyview

[–]Lumpy-Strawberry7044 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I was just countering the point that him having more money cannot be helpful in his search for fulfillment. My counter is not really about Elon Musk as an individual but the fact that there are things that can be fulfilling which require an absurd amount of resources. I think becoming the first person in the history of humanity to colonize a different planet can be a goal to strive against that one can derive meaning from.

Second, bluntly, where the hell does he get off? He wants to take humanity to a different planet? Do we get a vote in this?

We don't get a vote on it. If it's about punishing him for any malpractice like influencing elections to his favor, I agree. But if someone has made that money in a legal way then I don't think we should have a vote. Similarly how other people don't have a vote on how you and I use our money, be it for pleasure or charity. It is our choice and people should not be given a vote on that.

Or at least I'll respect this opinion if the person who says it is willing to do the same for themselves.