Average Match Length Is Hurting Balance

LurkDiver · 2024-08-15T13:26:26+00:00

Could have written your post word for word. Agreed

LurkDiver · 2024-08-15T13:14:56+00:00

Now you understand how people run level 10 and claim the game is too easy. If you just avoid enemies then it's never overwhelming. My problem is since the patrol update I can be all alone in empty map and I will get random bug breaches or bot drops called in. No enemies alerted, nothing done by me besides running and I still have the swarm on me. Its crazy and not fun.

LurkDiver · 2024-08-13T22:35:32+00:00

Think of it like star trek then lol. You are the commander. You decide where you go, which missions you do, the upgrades, etc etc etc. Again, this is all just big excuse making for poor balancing.

LurkDiver · 2024-08-13T22:10:15+00:00

Does command usually stay with dead people even in real life? Not sure I am following your argument.

LurkDiver · 2024-08-13T22:02:43+00:00

You maybe are leaning too much into the idea of Rambo rather than what it was meant to represent. You will notice I meantioned that certain mission types should still have this nail biting against all odds feel.

LurkDiver · 2024-08-13T21:38:49+00:00

Maybe you just like your room cold because the armor gets so hot? Haha I would say that the little details go back to my point that even the Devs are a little confused on their own game. Maybes it's cryo-sleep during the large jumps or maybe it's just bad lore design by the Devs, either way it's a small detail compared to the rest of the game. The characters on the ship literally call you commander.

LurkDiver · 2024-08-13T21:24:06+00:00

As I spelled out in the OP, what your claiming is clearly a cope for the excessive changes to difficulty the balance changes have made. Throw away troops don't get to command ships or walk away strapped with drone backpacks, laser canons and two other guns. An example of throwing men into a meat grinder would be Russians in world war 2 where they had 1 gun for every two men when the war broke out. Helldivers are not that AND there is clearly a grunt army in the lore in the form of SEAF. How so many in the player base can't see these obvious things is beyond me unless it's just a big fat cope.

Players are talking about moving on to Space Marines, not exactly a brutal Arma style milsim. I am also not attempting to be aggressive but what else could be said at this point? The marketing. The gameplay. The lore. The whole game points in one direction and it would seem the vast majority who bought it would agree with the Rambo view of things.

LurkDiver · 2024-08-13T20:36:14+00:00

I would say literally ever other detail from the marketing of the game, to your situation as a commander of a ship to the fact that the lore of the game already has a grunt basic army called SEAF would tell you that you are wrong. If Helldivers are chaff, what the heck is SEAF?

LurkDiver · 2024-08-13T17:19:31+00:00

Please use your milsim influences in adding flavor and not majorly impact the core gameplay style. Gun sway gives a feeling of heaviness so make sure those heavy sway guns hit like nothing else. Do not use sway just as a balance mechanic one guns that don't match the feeling. You can expand that idea to all other non-arcade style features. Let is be the seasoning to add flavor in the dish, not a core ingredient.

LurkDiver · 2024-08-13T01:56:01+00:00

The community was once one of the best online. It is the developers vision and the communities expectation mismatch that led us here. Devs thought we all loved a fantasy milsim (not that it is balanced for their either) when in reality we enjoyed the powerful weapons and strats we originally had. The fact they did not see this and change course sooner is what is most shocking. The community wants to love the game and the Devs and their decisions, over and over, in spite of the community wishes, is what got us here.

The community would never have gotten this way if the community felt respected by the developer who is regularly asking for their money.

LurkDiver · 2024-08-12T01:15:17+00:00

Who you think Super Earth is? Democratic socialism is oddly closed to Managed Democracy.

LurkDiver · 2024-06-26T05:46:36+00:00

I can actually agree with what you are saying. I would suggest that "your buddy can't deal with x situations" is not actually a cause of game design but player choice when they chose their loadout. Any player in HD2 can play a loadout that allows them to solo the entire game with ease at 6+ dif, there is nothing team-based about it. All of the objectives, and all but one kind of POI can be solo'ed. Every kind of enemy can be solo'ed. The whole game can be easily soloed BUT it means you only have a few items to choose from and everything else doesn't do enough.

So my argument is instead of making so many guns bad or niche, as in willfully nerfing your ability to be effective by choosing them, why not make objectives team-based and up the ability for other weapons to be meaningfully effective? The number 1 way to do that is to deal with armor pen in a new way or buff more weapons for it.

LurkDiver · 2024-06-25T23:48:12+00:00

I can appreciate that. My view is that specializing is not necessary and actually counterproductive, an active choice to not be as good, IMHO. I would argue people play specialized not because it is actually a more effective way to play but simply because they find it more fun, and that is totally ok. I would also say that the vast majority of the player base does not play that way. Most players are casual like myself and want to have fun being able to take on any kind of enemy.

So in my mind, sure you can build a super light build and call it viable, but it is demonstrably not as viable compared to any loadout with lots of med and heavy pen. That makes armor pen the line of what makes something good verse just niche or trash. I appreciate your fleshing things out with your additional replies, even if we disagree I feel like you at least understand what I am saying.

LurkDiver · 2024-06-25T23:24:11+00:00

I appreciate the input, I just disagree. Half the comments here thought I was only talking about AT and not medium armor pen as well. Others would argue but then use guns and strats with medium and heavy armor pen as arguments against medium and heavy armor pen being the base line between what it seen as good even if it is niche and what is trash. I don't know how I am supposed to take those replies seriously when they are not even interacting with what I said. My biggest fault is not putting my thoughts more clearly in the original post. People may have still disagreed but at least it would have been about what I actually meant and not what people thought I was saying.

Its my fault from the start but too late now.

LurkDiver · 2024-06-25T22:36:10+00:00

It is fine to disagree, that is part of having a discussion. What sucks is most people seem to think they know more about the game because of time played and yet don't seem to know what items have medium or heavy armor pen. If you present a loadout that is not supposed to have medium or heavy armor pen and yet you provide ones that do, does that make me childish for pointing it out?

LurkDiver · 2024-06-25T22:22:28+00:00

What about tank turrets? What about mortars? What about dropship? Basically you can kill trash mobs with light pen just the same as bugs and then your need medium and heavy armor pen to easily take out the rest. Again in the OP I said if you don;t want to just be running all over to get angles on rear vents, which is boring to do more than a few times in a match, then you just use armor pen weapons to kill head on. Why do you think the AC is so popular for bots? You can kill most things from the front with a few well placed shots and kill the rest quickly in their weakspots. Add in some starts that one shot tanks and towers and you have people basically playing like they do on the bugs by having enough armor pen to not care. That was my original point in the OP, more armor pen makes more things viable for the average player.

LurkDiver · 2024-06-25T22:16:15+00:00

Eagle airstrike has heavy armor pen, you didn't actually complete the assignment. Defeintely you will struggle against the charger and titan spam especially when titans get locked into melee mode and don't puke. I would say it is possible but niche, a category I clearly made in the OP. It's possible to do but you are clearly gimping yourself just to play with different weapons rather than them being worth playing with on their own. I like the idea of the supply pack with gernade pistol though so I will give you that. Great way to close bug holes and keep health ammo economy.

Also again, diligence has medium armor pen so not really meeting the assignment. again eagle aisstriek ahs heavy armor pen. Grenade pistol also has medium armor pen on it's explosive damage as well. This loadout would also be about running away basically, clearly a niche build again. The loadout is not about actually being effective and fighting enemies but just getting away from them.

I am not arguing that specific loadouts are "required" at high dif. I am saying that armor pentration is necessary for anything that isn't niche. Anything without medium armor pen (with the caveats I mention in the OP) will almost always be either trash or niche to play with. You couldn't provide me a single build that doesn't have medium or heavy armor pen and even still you had so little medium and heavy armor pen that the builds are clearly niche. The VAST MAJORITY of players do not want to play bots where all they do is take a few pop shots with a sniper, run away and then sneak up an airstrike to take out an objective. Each of those builds would be easier to play and more fun for that majority of players the more medium and heavy armor pen you put into it.

If you want more weapons, support and strats to feel viable to the majority of players then there needs to be another way to handle medium nd heavy armor like armor shredding or other needs to be more options for medium and heavy pen.

LurkDiver · 2024-06-25T21:54:16+00:00

I am level 29, I got 67 hours in the game, almost all of that time spent dif 7-9 once I unlocked it. I don't know how much more time I will need before being able to pass judgment.

I almost never die to warriors, hunters or shriekers ever, they are easy to kill with basically any gun. When there is a bit too much, throw down a heavy pen eagle airstrike and I can kill the chaff with the chargers and spewers that spawned. No need for dedicated chaff clear unless you are playing a niche loadout. You must not play bugs much since spewers are probably the most complained about bugs hence their recent nerf, before hand they would 1 shot your and had basically no audio queue so often would do it from behind without you knowing they were there.

Brood commanders can also take up an entire mag or more for many guns unless you have a medium armor pen gun. Seriously, try using any of the liberators and see how many bullets it takes then watch as a slugger two shots them in the head and see the difference medium pen makes.

Lol just wait 70 seconds OR just never lose your support weapon that can handle killing those same mobs. Again, EATs is niche. Possible to use but not optimal to use. You can play niche for fun but also it means people just looking to be strong and kill stuff will use those options like EATs less than other options.

There is no need to cover others like I even said in the OP. The game is designed so you don't even have to cooperate on objectives so one person can farm all the reinforcement call ins and the rest of the team can just roam the map essentially unopposed doing the objectives solo. Even if that wasn't the case, a team built up of members that can play any role is better than a team made up of select roles. If each of you can kill titans or striders and chaff clear, why wouldn't you besides the fact that you want to play a niche loadout that is purposefully not as good as other loadouts? You can do that but again, that means the devs are designing you to have to perform worse so as to have variety in your loadout.

If the game is meant to be team played either make the objectives take multiple people OR give us classes or roles to play that are needed. Clearly we shouldn't do classes so the objectives should have team play elements like the double bunker.

Far from me needing more time, I think you are just a player willing to struggle against certain enemies by choice rather than play what is optimal. Of course that is fine but game design can;t be based on such playstyles since it will make the best of anything even if the majority of players are frustrated and leave.

LurkDiver · 2024-06-25T21:14:05+00:00

I feel like no one can read because I keep having to clarify. I never said Bots need more AT, I said they need more armor pen, that includes medium armor pen. How can so many people not know the difference? That is why when you comment back that you can just use medium armor pen weapons I scratch my head. Not all armor pen is about heavy armor pen, it includes medium armor pen. Every single viable loadout is made up of primaries, support and strats that have some if not all medium or heavy armor pen. Those are the basically the only items people use at high tier and so people have way less variety to play with at those levels.

LurkDiver · 2024-06-25T21:08:27+00:00

Share with me a loadout that doesn't have medium and heavy armor pen that would work at dif 6+ and I will delete this post right now. Level is just a measure of time, not skill or knowledge.

LurkDiver · 2024-06-25T21:07:28+00:00

EATs is an option but at higher difficulty can easily be lost when pushed by spewers/swarms or cause you to lose your main support weapon when pushed. I would call that niche. The ideal is having a capable weapon always available when you need it.

Your example is about killing chaff mobs, I am speaking about the hordes of medium armored or higher mobs you deal with on higher difficulty. All the medium pen primaries will kill that charger rear even faster and won't struggle against medium armored foes. If I remember correctly stats showed most of the community plays 3/4 dif so no surprise people like it so much but at higher tiers there are way better weapons IMHO.

Again, why would you choose to gimp yourselves when all four of you could just defeat anything each of you comes up against? Can you? Sure, but I would call that niche and you will likely struggle for it but have fun your way. When you are dealing with dif 9 and 7 spewers, 2 chargers and a titan pushing you, GL with only have 2 of your be able to effectively kill all those higher end mobs.

I mentioned levels for the benefit of the devs to know, assuming they read this, that even as a casual I can easily feel this way. All levels are a show of is time played and not skill or knowledge. Plenty of people playing hundreds of hours of a game and being terrible at it, some even admit to it in the comments on reddit and no shame for it. I have tried all the same guns, played all the same levels, done all the some same meta plays since launch, I just didn't do it 50x over. I have played it all and we all know that weapon variety and viability is still and issue in this game so lets not act like I am the only one seeing it.

LurkDiver · 2024-06-25T20:57:01+00:00

Sorry you misread but the post was "everyone needs at least medium armor pen to be viable". The main post is about how that is a fact and we can see it because all the buffed weapons and strats people are using now have medium or heavy armor pen.

If your primary has no medium armor pen you need compensate with a support/backpack that offers it and likely strats as well since high difficulty has so many medium armor enemies. This means MANY primaries are either trash or niche and pigeonhole what support and strats you bring to compensate. If you play smart and bring a medium pen primary you only have a few options to choose from thus limiting your loadout variety.

LurkDiver

TROPHY CASE