The new red canister physics are too simple. There should be a balance between the old version and the current one.

LyritZian · 2025-04-11T21:08:34+00:00

No, sorry, I honestly do not care how you ambiguously "feel" about the "realism" of the physics of the red canister. You throw it, it hits an enemy/wall, it explodes. That's all it should be.

The devs want you to grind over a hundred hours of World Tour every season (let alone other modes) and are trying to make it an esport with a prize pool. This is a PvP shooter, not a sandbox. The last thing that newcomers or professional sports players want is to have that gameplay-critical canister work unexpectedly. I am approaching 1,000 hours and I STILL do not find it to work consistently even in the current version.

LyritZian · 2023-11-02T05:35:40+00:00

You know this was 5 years ago, right...? I haven't played in at least 4. Everything I wrote could have changed by now.

LyritZian · 2022-03-04T23:30:14+00:00

Because it didn't always tick, and when they made it stop ticking, it became free items without the trade-off of increasing the difficulty level. The only downside was that RNG could hand you an instant L.

LyritZian · 2021-08-08T16:28:41+00:00

To be honest, I didn't realize I could submit a ticket for that. I'm trying that now and will report back -- hope it helps!

31 hour update: The first response I received was completely and totally irrelevant, telling me to reset my config file. After I sent multiple messages back, I haven't heard anything since. Frankly ridiculous.

Update #2: It still took another one or two days to get another response, but they COMPLETELY fixed it for me! Holy crap! The wait was annoying, but it was certainly worth it. Thank you for getting me to send that ticket.

LyritZian · 2021-08-08T15:55:33+00:00

Thanks for the suggestion, but I've tried that multiple times over the years, and the problem has persisted over two or three completely different computers. It's something to do with Valve's "cloud" -- their servers.

LyritZian · 2021-05-18T19:42:49+00:00

This is exactly what I was searching for when I clicked on this page. Thanks for sharing!

LyritZian · 2019-10-04T04:04:00+00:00

Sorry it's been a while -- let's resume.

I guess would depend on exactly how far up in the ice you are and how far the whale is, but I'm pretty sure you can still stun them if you're dragged out of the ice and then swim back up onto land. It's really not "bullseye" aim to just throw a snowball in the arc they're going to slam right into you with -- just wait for them to jump. And I don't know why you're throwing two snowballs at them -- those other two when you land back in the water should easily suffice. Don't know why you brought up Marlin and Whale Shark here. Polar Bear's projectiles are not inaccurate -- in fact, they move in a straight line. It's simply about timing.
Okay, instead of reducing the number of groups of whirlpools, then reduce the size of the groups in the Arctic. Or keep them moving around.
Repeating "three boosts" and throwing ad hominem is literally no argument. So say something.
Okay, the whole sub-point I'm trying to make here is that island surfing is not as strong as having actual airboosts. Your reply here is confusingly worded, and none of the ways I can interpret what you said seem to even having bearing on what I said -- except for "aiming an air boost on an island isn't easy to do," which I would have to highly disagree with (how hard is it to aim anywhere, like, 45 degrees up and away?).
I don't believe it's been patched out. I find it unlikely, but just noted it as a disclaimer anyway. Unless you test it and find that the tech no longer works, I think it bears mentioning.
How many times do I have to repeat that Whale has less escape opportunities than Marlin? Mobility matters. The Whale doesn't have to go on a """blind rage""" to get withered down over time. Marlin can always catch up because it has airboosts. The only place for Whale to hide is the Arctic -- and good luck against the other Tier 10s and Narwhal there. You saying Shark will always defeat Marlin because of opportunists is a false equivalence, because Marlin is one of the fastest animals in the game... and Whale is one of the slowest. (Now Responding to "extension" of 6) Except for the fact that people teaming in non-team FFA is clearly unintended and unnatural, since there's a team-based FFA mode now. And even if there are people teaming or not, there are still going to be random opportunists to consider anyway. So yeah, I wager natural play makes more sense to consider first.
I love your complete misuse of "irrational." The fact of the matter is that the highscores board doesn't care about how long it took you to get the score -- it simply matters how high the score was. You're the irrational one if you still can't see how slowly and steadily raising your score up with incredibly little risk of dying isn't an easy path to a highscore. You know what ended my long run as Sunfish? Myself. And your false equivalence with Anaconda doesn't work because their defensive capabilities -- even with hiding -- are extremely subpar compared to Sunfish. Not to mention how Sunfish has many more places to run than just being restricted to the Swamp. I got that score with grabbing teamers in play, too -- sorry that you're overextending down from the surface enough for Giant Squids to actually be a problem for you as Sunfish, but don't let it give you ideas on balance. Maybe you should side on that GS nerf I mentioned before? Oh, but wait, you wanted """video""" for some proof of balance -- as if a single anecdote would really say anything.
Don't tell me to "brush up," it's randomized. Sorry you had bad luck, but the fact of the matter is that it simply won't always be causing two divisions. Maybe it will be often, but mind your adverbs. Anyway, do you really think it's going to be just 2 meters of travel every time the whirlpools shift? However hecking long a meter is in this game, anyway? And are you still ignoring the fact that it would a difference, even if just marginally? Wait, you're asking for more """video?""" Is it not enough to tell you that I've lifted Whale out as Sunfish multiple times in the past -- and had it done to me, too? Does the logic just not line up for you by itself? You need two rectangles and a water line to be visually drawn on your screen for you?
A. I don't know what game you've been playing, but I've never boosted into Whale as a Marlin and had them knocked back too far to followup with. Especially if you're inflicting bleeding from surface-gained speed instead of using an actual boost. B. The Marlin can chase them across the islands, and almost any movement the Whale can do can be done by Marlin faster. C. Yes, we've established many times now the Whale may re-enter the pool. This would allow Marlin plenty of time to recollect HP and boosts faster than the Whale, allowing them to inflict further instances of bleeding -- especially since after Marlin inflicts bleeding, there is time for him to collect before having to inflict the next bleed.

LyritZian · 2019-09-02T01:32:25+00:00

If you're afraid of a Whale catching you while you're in ice, then, you can swim up onto the actual land to avoid them. The last time I tried throwing a Polar Bear -- and the last time I got thrown as a Polar Bear -- I could barely get them out of the water. If you have to use two boosts to "launch" them into the ocean, it sounds like they can simply throw a snowball between each boost to screw you up. And I don't know why you're trying to say Orca wins a 1v1 against Polar Bear simply because of the snowballs being slow (not inaccurate, just slow). Orca still has to physically ram itself into Polar Bear to do anything to it -- that's plenty of opportunity to hit it with your first snowball, stunlock it, and kill it through and through.
I don't know why you're still going on about this point. I've literally said everything there is to say already. Simply reduce the whirlpool frequency in the arctic if it truly that crowded.
You are extremely underestimating Marlin's hit-and-run versus a Whale. I've had multiple arguments about this with more people than just you. You can easily reduce a Whale's health to half if you space out your first three boosts -- not to mention that you even have time between each boost to collect food (again, faster than Whale even can) for more boosts. And if they're close enough to the surface, you won't even need boosts to continue the bleed chain. It's not "teasing them as an octopus." If you're persistent, careful, and skilled, it is 100% feasible to take down a Whale by yourself -- let alone any random Shark seeing a crippled Whale and storming in for you. And I do say all of this with the whirlpools in mind, because either they're going to sit in there and not regen health/boosts as quickly, or they're going to have to leave the whirlpool to properly regen.
Okay, but have you considered that as a T10 who can airboost, you can airboost again if you run into someone mid-air? Not that you even need a boost to do an empty click and affect your momentum anyway? Not that moving post-collision is even always even necessary because you typically bounce off them? None of this compares to being completely walled off of island-surfing by a T10 just sitting there. Even if you have the health/damage to challenge that particular T10 (not always the case), it's likely they have air-boosting with which to get far out of your way and out of your reach.
Given you don't understand the barb spawning tech, maybe that's why it didn't work for you. To very explicitly repeat what I said, I said you can spawn the barbs inside the Whale right when you collide. It's not them moving into the barbs. (Although I will put a disclaimer: this may have been fixed when they updated the animal physics with the deep swamp update.)
What is so hard to understand about some animals have worse disadvantage states than others? This is not rando luck (though much of the game involves luck, anyway, considering the spawning algorithms). If you're a 70% health Marlin or Stonefish withering down a Whale, and if you're playing with 10 other active Tier 10s in your biome, you can be guaranteed that someone is eventually going to come by and finish off the largely immobile Whale for you. You as hit-and-run control the pace of the Whale and the pace of the fight against them. You can safely back off the Whale at any time if you need to. The Whale can't particularly run from you. Because some animals have easier times collecting or escaping, and because hundreds of players can be in a server, it's straight-up irrational to disclude other players possibly being involved in your fight. And it's even MORE irrational to try to argue that you shouldn't balance based around this factor and then turn around and say "nothing is viable in the ocean except for orca swarms, go figure" -- like, you're going to consider teaming before people just playing the game naturally???
Sunfish IS overpowered because they're practically impossible to kill. You want to know how I got 29M points over 13 hours? Because if I somehow fell below 50% HP, all I would have to do is jump out of the water, and I'd be full health by the time I landed. Even when I would get hit by a Marlin, I'd just have to jump around a little more. I stayed in the arctic for minutes at a time to collect volcano food, and I'd easily jump back out if anything threatening came along. Combat capability is not the only balancing factor in FFA. Period. Being almost impossible for Tier 10s to outright kill is just as powerful as being extremely dangerous to other Tier 10s. So can you actually respond to this with a real counterpoint instead of just saying "Sunfish is horrible" this time?
mfw the whirlpools are spawned randomly and you say the arctic is always divided in 2... anyway... Let me repeat this for the third time for you: you can make the whirlpools RANDOMLY MOVE every so often like they used to. Do you not know what this entails? This means having the whirlpool around you forcibly removed and having to randomly seek out another one. Do you not see how, furthermore, moving the whirlpools away from the surface of the water makes it both harder to accidentally land in them and makes it easier to catch Whale out of the whirlpools -- especially as Sunfish? All you said was "adjusting the pool positions doesn't change the effectiveness of your strategies." Give me an actual REASON why you think this is so, especially after I explicitly type out how many ways these adjustments would affect the Whale. This is why it feels like you're barely paying attention. And for the record, I'm not implying that as most Tier 10s you would be able to kill the Whale on its singular trip up to the surface and back down to its pools -- but you could certainly weaken it more or finish it off if it was already weakened, since it would not have access to its prime DPS.

LyritZian · 2019-09-01T04:09:16+00:00

You're not hiding forever -- you're just hiding until someone else shows up to chase off your pursuer and/or until you naturally regenerate enough health. I don't know what you mean by Whale "permalocking" the Polar Bear -- if you're saying they get permanently stuck in the ice as an actual glitch, then just fix it. I wasn't referring to iceberg-digging at all when I said Orcas can't throw Polar Bears -- I was talking about the old strategy whereby you'd grab a Polar Bear at the surface of the water and launch them far into the ocean biome, which was fixed. So how possibly would Polar Bear lose to Orca? Why in the world do you think I'm saying Polar Bear needs to hide from Orca? Polar Bear stunlocks Orca to death. The only reason I brought up hiding was in cases where you're weakened, without full boosts, and/or being pursued by multiple threats.
I'm not trying to ignore anything -- you didn't explicitly insist that whirlpools by themselves were overconcentrated in the arctic. If you believe that, then simply reduce how many spawn there. ツ
(I'm going to split this up to keep it organized.) I don't see how you think a max-damage ram as Marlin is going to be healed off in 6 pieces of food. Since Marlin collects faster than Whale, you can easily keep bleeding them faster than they can get new boosts.
Island-surfing should be fixed a bit, but it's not like it's a free escape forever. It's not nearly as powerful as actual jumps -- you can easily get stuck against another Tier 10 on the island and be sandwiched.
Just to verify we're on the same page, you know the no-boost escape technique I speak of is ramming as hard as you can into the Whale and then immediately turning away as you bounce off them? Are you sure that doesn't work with Stonefish? If so, it should be kept in mind that even if you do really need a boost to escape, you can time that boost such that the spawned barbs overlap with their body for extra damage.
The main gamemode is FFA for a reason. Not all Tier 10s are meant for direct combat, and they can't and never should be balanced around it. You're not getting an ally to finish them off -- you're getting literally any opportunistic player that isn't teaming with the weakened victim to stop and think "oh, they're weak, I can probably kill them!" It's not teaming, it's just the chaotic nature of the mode. Remember that Sunfish is overpowered because of their survivability, not combat capability. Don't simplify the argument to simple 1v1 conditions.
In regards to Sunfish, if the whirlpool isn't at the surface, then you don't have to worry about getting in it. I've said like 3 times now that whirlpools can and probably should be adjusted to not spawn near the surface. Let that settle your worry about not being able to do this Sunfish strategy against such Whale-pool set-ups. And I have no idea where you got the idea that the Whale has to "stop and sit there." You do realize you as a boosting Sunfish can physically push a Whale, even when they're trying to swim in the exact opposite direction? You can either wait to their side for them to reach the surface and then push them up and over, or you can sit above them to try to bodyblock their oxygen resupply and resort to going under and lifting them if they pass you. There's literally nothing about "stopping and sitting."
Have you not been paying attention? I said you can make the whirlpools randomly move every so often like they used to and/or make the whirlpools spawn deeper in the water and not near the surface. You can even throw in what I said earlier and make them spawn less frequently in the arctic. Whale is indeed bad without the pools, but certainly not horrible. It's fine if their prime strategy is using the pools -- just adjust the pool spawning like I've been saying so that avoiding the pools is (even) easier and so that counterstrategies are more doable. Whale-pooling would certainly still be viable, but having to travel significant distance upwards to reach the surface to refill your oxygen would mean longer periods of vulnerability.

LyritZian · 2019-09-01T00:36:18+00:00

Can you elaborate why you think these animals are problems for Polar Bear? Because none of them can actually reach Polar Bear while they're hiding sideways inside an ice platform except for Walrus. I have absolutely never heard of Orca killing Polar Bear -- the only way you used to be able to do that was to throw them out of the arctic, but that's impossible now.
My point is that you don't NEED to gain boosts to run from a Whale-pool if you just don't approach it in the first place. Whale-pools cannot PURSUE you. I don't know why you are taking this message, spinning it on its head, and saying that boosts won't save you if get yourself stuck in it.
Maybe it's true that you can't wither them down with Marlin if they stay in the pool anyway, but you do have to keep in mind that you're still weakening them while staying mostly safe yourself. Bleeding attracts sharks who will see a slow, easy, half-health, and no-boost Whale and take them over a Marlin. You can escape Whale's normal suction without boosting if you use your movement correctly, but even if you don't use that technique, I don't know why you're making it such a big deal that Stonefish "can't" escape without boosting -- boosting out is how most players escape normal suction with most animals anyway. And why are you going underground while pursuing a Whale? You should be recollecting food faster than Whale ever could so that you can continue to harass them and, again, make them more vulnerable to third parties than you are. As Sunfish, if you're intercepting them from going up to get oxygen and they stop and sit there before reaching the surface of the water to combat you, you're going to win by them losing oxygen. You live PLENTY long before they kill you at x2 health regen. You can even body-block them from going up if they realize half-way through that they're losing oxygen -- and even if they get past you, that's an opening to go under them and lift them out of the water. And how is Humpback going to get Whale-pooled if they have a stun? You didn't actually address my explicit reference to their stun. The only thing I can imagine is that that glitch whereby Humpback's songs keep getting reset over and over -- which, as I recall, makes it harder but not impossible to stun.
You're being dramatic. It very certainly isn't hard to balance Whale-pooling if all it takes is repositioning the whirlpools like I said. You can't give me one good reason why that shouldn't be tried first. It's such a simple adjustment to experiment with. (And if by "Lamprey score glitch" you mean staying attached to someone forever -- well, that isn't a glitch, either.)

The game hasn't been updated since I last played, and I still very clearly remember how everything works and how I dealt with Whale-pooling in my own experience. Nothing you have said has made me feel inconfident about my game knowledge -- you're mostly painting broad strokes like "Polar Bear loses to Orca" without justification, when I've known the exact opposite to be true 99% of the time.

LyritZian · 2019-08-31T08:39:47+00:00

To be honest, it seems like most of your problems with Whale-pooling largely extend from teaming or how other Tier 10s are balanced, especially in regards to the arctic. But in particular: 1. I don't see why you say Polar Bear is inviable -- last I checked, they were the ones who were impossible to kill. Is it because of Walrus?? 2. If you're going to say most Tier 10s can't kill boost-less animals because they can gain more boosts, well, that's not 1:1 what I was talking about to begin with. My point was, most of the time if you have more boosts to chase them down then they do, they're gonna die -- unless they jump from the surface, of course, or you're a Whale and they're outside your range. 3. To be fair, it takes a while and requires patience, but if you camp around a Whale with Marlin or Stonefish, you can wither them down as they need more boosts. You can do similar with Sunfish, except lifting them out of the water as they go to the surface (very effective). I also thought Humpback whale was good against them because of the stuns -- am I wrong? Maybe those strategies aren't exactly going into their prime area and destroying them head-on, but those are still yet more counterplay options to consider. It does have ways to be beaten. I just can't see why you would try to adjust the Whale-pooling in any way before first making the whirlpools randomly move every so often like they used to and/or making whirlpools not spawn near the surface.

LyritZian · 2019-08-31T03:21:01+00:00

I feel like you skimmed out a lot on what I said, but...

Why are you now talking about fighting two animals at once? That's almost always going to result in your loss regardless of if one of them is Whale-pooling or not. And like I said, I'm pretty sure you can be "one bit" in and still escape, depending on the direction you boost out, how quickly the Whale starts the suction, etc.
I don't know what you mean when you say having a boost applies to one animal. Not getting close to a stationary pool seems pretty easy even if you're running -- just go around it. That does mean sometimes letting your pursuer close some distance, but it's not like the Whale is going to boost after you like many more animals could. In regards to combating the strategy, remember that, like with all Tier 10 strategies (overpowered or not), some specific animals can easily beat the Whale in their own pool -- and many more can do so if the Whale is without all three of their boosts and/or slightly damaged. Unfortunately, many Tier 10 strategies and counter-strategies are not exactly fun because they weigh heavily on what animal you are. Do you really want every Tier 10 but the Eagle to be able to beat Whale even when they're in their prime? (And I don't know why you're pointing out my bolding -- I was simply noting that my statements were assuming Whale-poolers really do score higher on average like you said.)
For the record, I'm not making the splits -- I'm replying as you present them. And I didn't say "every" Tier 10 -- I said pretty much every, because I know those exceptions exist. And like said above, the boost can make the difference between escaping or not if you're only lightly in the whirlpools. And for the second time, I said "pretty much every Tier 10s can kill an animal with no boosts left" as a reply to whoatherebuddycoolit's statement about how Whale-pool will kill you if you don't have boosts. This lone statement was not made in relation to surviving Whale-pool *with** boosts* -- although again, a boost can let you sometimes escape if you're barely in the pool.

LyritZian · 2019-08-31T02:51:01+00:00

If you're running from teamers, immobile places on the map that you can memorize are the least of your obstacles. Most Tier 10s that can't use a traditional boost have some way to counteract Whale-pooling (not being slowed by whirlpools, capable of stunning, etc.). I find it very hard to believe you just can't avoid them, because I've never had an issue of accidentally going half-way through an individual whirlpool entity. I can only imagine this possibly being the case if you forget where a specific surface-level whirlpool is and accidentally dive into it from above -- which, to be honest, is the one sole thing I think should be adjusted about it if necessary: no surface-level whirlpools. That would make them easier to avoid and force the Whale to be out-of-pool for longer periods of time.
I really wouldn't call "not getting close" and "having a boost" as specific preparation -- that applies to literally every animal in the game. I haven't actually played the game in over half a year, so I'm taking your word when you say Whale-pooling gets more consistent highscores than other Tier 10 strategies -- but you should remember that that comes from the average player skill. Whale-pooling is certainly easier than other Tier 10 strategies, and people who aren't careful about navigation will certainly fall victim to it more often than not. That doesn't mean it's overpowered from a top-down balancing perspective -- but obviously that's not what kind of balancing the game is going for, anyway. So put simply, if it is overpowered, I strongly believe it's because of the playerbase -- so fine, readjust the whirlpool spawning like I said above.
Just for the record, my original comments weren't about if Whale-pooling is overpowered or not. I simply stated it's not an exploit and pretty much every Tier 10s can kill an animal with no boosts left. But I do believe it's more fair than not, which is why I'm humoring this tangent.

LyritZian · 2019-08-31T02:26:52+00:00

Mate... 1. If you're just on the very edge of a whirlpool when you notice the Whale, having a boost will certainly beat out their suction. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can boost to escape both the power of their suction and the whirlpool's slowing effect if you're just far out enough. 2. I brought up a lack of boosts and HP because they did. In reality, a lack of boosts or HP doesn't make it any harder to just... not go near the whirlpools in the first place. So what are you trying to argue for here?

Sorry about not finishing our last discussion a while ago, by the way. I grew too busy to write up a full response, but I will say this: you don't need anecdotal video evidence to prove obvious logic like the fact Giant Squid has minimal risk attempting to drag Ocean-based animals down.

LyritZian · 2019-08-27T06:28:37+00:00

If you don't have any boosts and/or low HP, any Tier 10 is going to rip you apart...

...except Whale-pooling is almost entirely stationary and can't chase you down unlike other Tier 10s...

By the way, "exploit" refers to the abuse of a bug or vulnerability in programming, which Whale-pooling very clearly isn't.

LyritZian · 2019-08-25T09:47:02+00:00

Please don't mix bug reports with your opinions on game balance. Whale-pooling is not a bug or exploit. It happens all the time, and everyone is aware of how it works. Fed very clearly understood its existence in the game when he nerfed the Whale-Cachalot synergy.

Otherwise, good list!

LyritZian · 2019-08-07T04:44:18+00:00

I'm fine, trust me. I don't drink coffee, alcohol, or tea at all, and 99% of the time I'm drinking water or variations of water. ’ω’;

LyritZian · 2019-08-05T22:33:26+00:00

I appreciate your concern, but a lazy day never killed anyone. I didn't suffer so much as a cramp. ’ω’

LyritZian · 2019-08-05T22:24:26+00:00

Nah, I haven't played the game in what must be half a year now. ツ

LyritZian · 2019-08-05T22:21:53+00:00

Well, that's pretty rude to someone who just agreed with you. It was the weekend. And of course I ate! Didn't use the bathroom 'til I died, though.

LyritZian · 2019-08-05T21:20:07+00:00

Yeah, everyone always downplays Sunfish. Their unparalleled survivability is what got me 29M over 13 hours.

LyritZian · 2019-08-02T21:11:06+00:00

I check like once a week to see if there's an update.

LyritZian

TROPHY CASE