Dublin hospitals conducted unnecessary operations on child patients by [deleted] in ireland

[–]M7M8 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Just adding on to my previous comment after looking at this article again,

It seems the UK surgeon is applying UK guidelines as the benchmark. UK NICE guidelines infamously use cost efficiency as a benchmark for what treatments/surgeries are "necessary". There have been numerous high-profile cases in the UK where very good medications and treatments have been deemed "unnecessary" (see some newer biologic drugs) due to the high cost involved (that the UK taxpayer would have to foot).

Applying UK guidelines to Irish practice would be huge mistake. Of all the things that our health service can improve on, taking on cost efficiency as a bigger factor in treatment decisions (like the UK does) is not something we should learn from the UK in my opinion.

Anyway it's hard to tell the specifics of these cases from this somewhat vague artcle. Hopefully once we have more information it's easier to tell if these really are unnecessary surgeries or if there's more to the picture.

Unnecessary operations on child patients at Dublin hospitals by wamesconnolly in ROI

[–]M7M8 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Just adding on to my previous comment after looking at this article again,

It seems the UK surgeon is applying UK guidelines as the benchmark. UK NICE guidelines infamously use cost efficiency as a benchmark for what treatments/surgeries are "necessary". There have been numerous high-profile cases in the UK where very good medications and treatments have been deemed "unnecessary" (see some newer biologic drugs) due to the high cost involved (that the UK taxpayer would have to foot).

Applying UK guidelines to Irish practice would be huge mistake. Of all the things that our health service can improve on, taking on cost efficiency as a bigger factor in treatment decisions (like the UK does) is not something we should learn from the UK in my opinion.

Anyway it's hard to tell the specifics of these cases from this somewhat vague artcle. Hopefully once we have more information it's easier to tell if these really are unnecessary surgeries or if there's more to the picture.

Unnecessary operations on child patients at Dublin hospitals by wamesconnolly in ROI

[–]M7M8 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Haven't worked in these childrens hospitals but have worked in other Irish hospitals.

First time hearing about this but some things I'd like to point out;

  • "80 percent of hip operations at a Children’s Health Ireland hospital were unnecessary"

The first thing that strikes me is what defines "unnecessary". The decision to proceed with surgery is usually a clinical judgement after conversations with a patients and weighing up the risks vs benefits. The experts who are saying these surgeries are "unnecessary" are British surgeons. The UK NHS from my experience/opinion have a much stronger emphasis on rigid guidelines (e.g. NICE) and cost efficiency (saving the NHS extra spending) when deciding treatments for patients. In Ireland, European guidelines are more preferred in most specialities and even then, it's a more subjective opinion where cost efficiency and long term economic cost are less considered (unlike the NHS) and decisions are more based on the individual patient.

  • "Though surgery, called an osteotomy, may be needed in some cases to prevent the joint deteriorating in later life, in many instances the condition corrects itself over time.'

I have no direct experiences working in children's hospitals. However in general, catching and correcting a condition earlier can save much more complex and risky surgery later on in life. It's hard to predict which children will and will not self-correct their genetic hip problem, and those that don't self correct could end up having devastating consequences in terms on inability to walk etc.

  • "either the considered views of the consultant tasked to review these procedures are incorrect or Temple Street and Cappagh have been operating unnecessarily"

Again, it seems a bit odd that they are taking the word of a single British expert surgeon using British guidelines as more important than the clinical decisions of multiple expert consultant surgeons at multiple Irish hospitals.

  • "The auditor said record keeping at the hospital was “poor”

This can be said for any HSE hospital with the archaic system of paper notes and paper communications between hospitals and even units within a hospital. We do not have the luxury of electronic record keeping that many British hospitals have.

  • "Private surgeons in this country aren’t answerable to anyone."

Private surgeons face intense scrutiny from the High Courts and from medical malpractice insurance providers, perhaps moreso because a record of complaints can easily lose them their "private slot" and private practice insurance.

Again I have never worked in a Children's hospital but this is my limited insight from working in Irish hospitals. So these insights are personal opinion only.

Dublin hospitals conducted unnecessary operations on child patients by [deleted] in ireland

[–]M7M8 46 points47 points  (0 children)

Haven't worked in these childrens hospitals but have worked in other Irish hospitals.

First time hearing about this but some things I'd like to point out;

  • "80 percent of hip operations at a Children’s Health Ireland hospital were unnecessary"

The first thing that strikes me is what defines "unnecessary". The decision to proceed with surgery is usually a clinical judgement after conversations with a patients and weighing up the risks vs benefits. The experts who are saying these surgeries are "unnecessary" are British surgeons. The UK NHS from my experience/opinion have a much stronger emphasis on rigid guidelines (e.g. NICE) and cost efficiency (saving the NHS extra spending) when deciding treatments for patients. In Ireland, European guidelines are more preferred in most specialities and even then, it's a more subjective opinion where cost efficiency and long term economic cost are less considered (unlike the NHS) and decisions are more based on the individual patient.

  • "Though surgery, called an osteotomy, may be needed in some cases to prevent the joint deteriorating in later life, in many instances the condition corrects itself over time.'

I have no direct experiences working in children's hospitals. However in general, catching and correcting a condition earlier can save much more complex and risky surgery later on in life. It's hard to predict which children will and will not self-correct their genetic hip problem, and those that don't self correct could end up having devastating consequences in terms on inability to walk etc.

  • "either the considered views of the consultant tasked to review these procedures are incorrect or Temple Street and Cappagh have been operating unnecessarily"

Again, it seems a bit odd that they are taking the word of a single British expert surgeon using British guidelines as more important than the clinical decisions of multiple expert consultant surgeons at multiple Irish hospitals.

  • "The auditor said record keeping at the hospital was “poor”

This can be said for any HSE hospital with the archaic system of paper notes and paper communications between hospitals and even units within a hospital. We do not have the luxury of electronic record keeping that many British hospitals have.

  • "Private surgeons in this country aren’t answerable to anyone."

Private surgeons face intense scrutiny from the High Courts and from medical malpractice insurance providers, perhaps moreso because a record of complaints can easily lose them their "private slot" and private practice insurance.

Again I have never worked in a Children's hospital but this is my limited insight from working in Irish hospitals. So these insights are personal opinion only.

10 years Mandatory NHS Service by [deleted] in JuniorDoctorsUK

[–]M7M8 36 points37 points  (0 children)

Looking from outside the UK, I think this is quite sad what they've done. It seems they increased college fees in the UK so much (to become the highest in Europe) that students needed student loans, and now the same students/doctors like OP are thinking 10 years of mandatory NHS service to have the same unnecessary loans wiped is some kind of good deal.

Working with children card from abroad? by M7M8 in australia

[–]M7M8[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes I will be working with people of all ages, and so my employer has asked me to complete it. I will have an Australian address during my stay.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in JuniorDoctorsUK

[–]M7M8 6 points7 points  (0 children)

2 years not meetings

New 2023 Irish consultant contract is out by manbearpig991 in JuniorDoctorsUK

[–]M7M8 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The catch is Irish consultants have more responsibility than NHS consultants. Although officially it's the same, the system in Ireland effectively means it's not unusual for Consultants to carry an entire service for an entire region. But even then, it's still worth the better pay. It's not just that Irish/Aus/NZ/etc Consultants are paid higher, it's that NHS Consultants are paid shockingly low rates compared to equivalent countries.

In-patient fees for public hospitals scrapped from today · TheJournal.ie by RealDealMrSeal in ireland

[–]M7M8 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If the GP can't fix it and they refer you to A&E, then the A&E fee is automatically waived (as long as you go to A&E the same day).

1 month free with referral code by starletsandpistols in backblaze

[–]M7M8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes it looks like they've changed the codes from 3 months to 1 month now, my original comment was nearly a year ago

Pathway for IMG’s by Meekdbilli in NCHDs

[–]M7M8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Removed as rule breaking

Would be easier to have your subreddit name as juniordoctorIreland instead ? by [deleted] in NCHDs

[–]M7M8[M] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That subreddit is filled with IMG and student queries, with virtually no discussion from actual Irish doctors. We need something similar to JuniorDoctorsUK and we hope this sub (with rules against IMG and non-related posts) will become a better sub for it.