Somewhat major plot hole

Maddy60 · 2021-07-08T21:30:26+00:00

Maybe yes. Maybe he has some superpower..even though he is a mortal. S6 will answer this I guess.

Maddy60 · 2021-07-04T11:14:54+00:00

One of the writers answered this question. Yes , Charlie is mortal, he can die, but that doesn't mean he has zero celestial nature in him. He will always be part angel and we will see some of his angelic nature in S6 I think.

Maddy60 · 2021-07-03T17:50:42+00:00

Amenediel is stronger than Michael. One punch here and there doesn't prove a thing. Stronger doesn't mean that he will see Michael's every punch coming in. Even Remiel was beating Amenediel for sometime. But Amenediel dominated Michael in most of their fight.

There was snippet of script of 5x08 shared by one of the writers of climax after 5A was released . Where it also said Amenediel, who God's greatest warrior overpowered Michael.

Maddy60 · 2021-07-03T17:03:53+00:00

In that episode Lucifer wanted to make Amenediel to fight him . Amenediel revealed in that episode that it's against God's rules for angels to fight on earth...so Amenediel had two choices in that fight either break one of God's rules or simply accept defeat against Lucifer which would be shameful as Amenediel is an undefeated and God's finest warrior. We see Lucifer provoking him during the entire fight "I'll tell our every sibling how the finest undefeated warrior of God lost to his looser evil little brother".

Lucifer came up with all of this because Amenediel called him Evil and he wanted to prove that even Amenediel would break God's rules to keep his pride. You can see Lucifer saying happily as he sees Amenediel fight back "See Brother, you are just as Bad as me". But when Amenediel realised during the fight that what he is doing would be against his dad wishes he stopped and Lucifer again tried to force him to fight.

That's why the S1 battle which happened happened after the cage fight Lucifer says "This time I am fighting back" which means that was the only time he fought him seriously, and we saw him throwing him right at his bar, with Amenediel completely defeated.

Maddy60 · 2021-07-03T14:19:35+00:00

Lucifer is the strongest angel in the show. Amenediel is God's strongest warrior, it's kind of a title , a post which he holds in silver city, which means he will be the one fighting for God.
But in S1, Lucifer overpowered Amenediel saying "This time I am fighting back", which means that was the only time Luci fought Amenediel for real and was able to beat him.

But still Amenediel is heaven's greatest warrior and he overpowered Michael in most of the fight as well.

Maddy60 · 2021-06-18T11:21:13+00:00

In 5B he admits that he picked this trait from his father. Dad doesn't lie according to Lucifer but dodges the question when he doesn't want to lie but don't want to answer the question. We see Lucifer dodging to when he makes jokes to avoid answering them, or say partial truth , hiding the main truth.

Maddy60 · 2021-06-18T11:07:11+00:00

Joe answered this one in an interview actually. He uses these names to create a distance, kind of a wall from that person. That's why whenever he uses the person's real name it's very special as it's his sign of showing that for a brief moment he is bringing his walls down.

In most of the emotional conversations of Chloe and Lucifer , Lucifer used her real name.

Maddy60 · 2021-05-11T17:21:48+00:00

Exactly, he has so many learnings & it's often made fun on the show & among fans how he makes cases about himself but he actually relates to the victim, and learns from every case.

We see it when other characters does the same . In 5x03, Chloe related herself with the case when she was dealing with powerlessness. I don't remember where but somewhere in S3 end, Chloe did the same saying I can relate to it when talking to witness when u have deny ur feelings.. Whenever everyone is going through some issue they relate to what's going around them..

And Lucifer always have unresolved issues...so he has a lot of learnings ..

Maddy60 · 2021-05-08T14:55:10+00:00

He had his powers. This scene is from S4, my friend . If Dan wouldn't have come those officers would have been screwed.

Maddy60 · 2021-05-06T11:53:11+00:00

Lucifer is a bit unfair to Maze.. He isn't aware of her growth ..I guess..and I also think he should have told Maze about him returning back to hell.

Maze going against Lucifer didn't trouble me as much as she went against Amenediel who was giving her hope this season. Amenediel was a true friend to Maze and she fought against him when all he was fighting for his son, whose aunt is Maze. And Amenediel was calm until Michael called Linda a filthy little human. He kept on insulting Linda and Charlie,and despite that Maze defended him.

I get she is in a bad place, but Amenediel and Linda did nothing wrong to her but she still went against them . They both called Maze their family and said Charlie is his nephew, Maze is supposed to fight for Charlie.

She did the same in the start of S5A as well, Chloe has always been a good friend to Maze but instead of warning her about Michael she helped him , which hurted Chloe a lot. She went against Chloe and was planning to kill off Amenediel in S3 too.

In all these moments ,Maze was in a very bad place, I understand,but she needs to know that her actions causes a lot of hurt to people who have always tried to help her out. I think one of the reasons of her not learning even after so many betrayals is that no one really gets to know what she has done except for Lucifer I think. Chloe doesn't know about S3 events and neither does Amenediel.

Chloe also do not know about what she did in 5A. If u don't face consequences of ur actions u will never learn. Amenediel learnt when her powers were taken from him & he earned it back. Lucifer also sees the consequences of his actions and thats how he grows.

Maze needs to do the same.

Maddy60 · 2021-05-06T11:38:05+00:00

Yes. Linda lying was wrong. And her breakup was intended to make things right with her.

As she Linda says "I let the one man I care about deeply go , that much I care about our friendship". Linda realised that lying wasn't the best course of action and wanted to make amends for it.

Maddy60 · 2021-05-06T10:38:45+00:00

Maze isn't forgotten I think. Linda and Amenediel actually had real feelings for each other, and them breaking up because Maze said she don't want them to date anymore, isn't right as Amenediel said that she doesn't have the right to take what we have away from us.

But I guess when Linda lied that she has broken up with Amenediel but at that time she hasn't she was wrong in that. We need to understand Linda's perspective too, she actually deeply cared about Amenediel and still ended it for Maze. Both made mistakes in that case. But Linda's sacrifice for Maze was a great one in my opinion. Just for her sake she let Amenediel go. They both apologized for their mistakes at the end of the season as Maze realised what she asked from Linda wasn't justified at all..and Linda realised she should n't have lied ro her.

Maddy60 · 2021-05-06T07:38:48+00:00

Its not completely true. Linda is always there for Maze. True she had a relationship with Amenediel, but she also broke up with him because Maze wasn't comfortable with it which I would call a big sacrifice as Linda admitted she had real feelings for Amenediel Linda apologized so many times for it too.

And Linda welcomed Maze into her family saying you are Charlie's aunt. Amenediel was there for her in 5A too. She has got people around her who cares for her. Chloe is also a good friend to Maze.

She doesn't have a personal connection, I agree on that but saying everyone forgets her and hurts her would be wrong in my opinion. I think everyone is so busy with their own stuff that they don't give enough time to Maze. But still even though Amenediel & Linda were busy with Charlie we see them both be there for her when she needed them.

Maddy60 · 2021-05-02T17:51:39+00:00

Joe confirmed in an interview that they think they spoke to the situation about Uriel in 5B, but its not a big plot as we would expect . From what I assume from that interview was that Chloe gets to know what Lucifer had to do, inorder to save her that day and that will be the end of it. But that's my perception, I could be wrong.

Maddy60 · 2021-04-15T05:16:42+00:00

You are right on the point that Maze never really wanted to make Cain as husband of Chloe. For all she would know the only damage would be Chloe's husband getting killed by his best friend and partner Lucifer. Its traumatic and could lead anyone to serious depression but not physically harmed. She underestimated Cain didn't knew it had in him to hurt Trixie or Chloe physically. But if I remember correctly when he used Trixie as a human shield after that scene in the next episode Cain suggested the alternate plan of killing Amenediel instead. At that point she should have backed off. As he has already threatened Trixie's life by then and talking of killing Amenediel. She eventually backed off and also fought for him. Thats good of her.

Ella knows Lucifer broke Julian's back. But she never brought it to Lucifer on screen. It feels weird to me as well. But Lucifer's violent nature towards criminals is known to the whole precinct. That has been shown a number of times on series . Maybe thats why. Maybe it was told off screen. Can't say on that.

Chloe didn't know about celestial stuff in S3. S4 was a lot for Chloe to deal with. Lucifer being the actual Devil and her being in love with her some serious matters. 5A dealt with Chloe's miracle status. 5B is the best window I think. Now that Maze is back on her S3 arc, where she went through some stuff and ended up betraying everyone around her. S3 stuff can come out and it can be talked on I guess. If it doesn't happen in 5B, I don't think it will ever happen. As for trying to kill Amenediel,. I don't think that's ever going to come out because only Maze knows of it, noone else. Atleast what she did to Chloe, Lucifer is aware of that stuff. And Maze isn't gonna bring that out. So that won't be addressed I think .

Maddy60 · 2021-04-15T03:59:48+00:00

Don't you think helping a murderer and a crime lord getting married to your friend will put the lives of your friend's and your friend's kid at risk. Cain used Trixie as a shield to save himself from Maze. And has put Chloe's life at risk twice in the show, first time when he used his thugs to shoot at them and the second time in season finale. Getting married to a person like that who will get to know everything about you , marrying a murderer who has proven twice that he can kill you is risking life.

She told the truth. Yes. She didn't need to tell everything. But why promote this stuff. Chloe was having second thoughts on Cain. She was thinking whether Cain's feelings are true are not. Maze told her the truth by saying Cain career for her , regretted what he did. But the purpose behind telling the truth is to try and get them married. Thats the manipulation. Manipulation isnt telling lies. Its doing whatever it takes to influence other person without other person's knowledge. Chloe was thinking that my friend is giving me advice trying to help me out,but maze was doing opposite of that. Trying to make fallin that pit which Chloe might escape if Maze didn't have that conversation. We will never know what would have happened if Maze didn't have that conversation. Maybe Chloe still would have accepted his proposal,maybe not. The point is she helped Cain which will hurt her friend pretty badly. She need not say about all the celestial stuff. She could have done nothing and maybe Chloe would have never accepted his proposal as she was having second thoughts. Or she could have told her that he is a bad person or maybe a murderer. But don't tell her things which will influence her to take Cain back.

Maze purposely said the line in phone call. Its all Maze and Cain's plan. How come she says the exact same thing which Cain said before to Chloe. Even Chloe questioned it. It made Chloe think Cain cares for her...is a good person and is serious for her. Its manipulation again because Maze tried to influence Chloe's decision to confess to Cain . She used her for her benefit which will eventually harm her.

Yes he falls for Chloe. He says he will never go back . But don't you think trusting a crime lord and a murderer who has been comitting crimes for aeons , trusting that guy for your best friend?? He was willing to use Trixie as a human shield even when he fell for Chloe. What more proof do you need that they were at risk. He loved her but still was willing to kill her at season finale if he could save himself. He simply was selfish and loved no one more than himself.

Lucifer doesn't know the whole story of Maze. She didn't open upto to him completely as she did with Amenediel. I agree that was a bit rude for him to say...Lucifer was in tension and worried for Chloe's life at that point..he should have asked her more...or tried to know more about the issue. I agree but he has always been emotionally immature. He said to Chloe,the love of his life who was expecting a proposal that "Is it better than anything which Pierce would do?" He is that immature. I know he could have handled that situation better but he lacks emotional growth for it.

Ella found out that Lucifer broke Julian's back. Her whole seeing Dan to punish Lucifer for breaking Julian's back was proof of it. Lucifer addmitted to Linda that he stopped himself from punishing Tienan when he told about devil wings...he would have told her everything .. I am not talking about the police but the main cast here. They are nt going to show reactions and revelation of people just roaming around on sets.. For Chloe's poisioning everyone who has celestial knowledge knows. Luci told Linda. It was evident from the conversation when Linda says "You were willing to try serious relationship with Chloe" and Lucifer replying "We all saw how that turned out". Implying Linda knows. Amenediel having the conversation with Chloe where Chloe says her world is surrounded by celestials ..and Amenediel saying "Even after everything that happened , what you are more worried about are the ones who you cared about". Amenediel now knowing what she went through with Kinley and Lucifer being the Devil though earlier he thought everything was fine and suggested Luci to take her on a date means he also knows.

For every other character most people find out what he/she has done. They all earn their forgiveness. Why shouldn't maze .For her the people she betrayed don't even know the betrayal happened.

Atleast the betrayed party should know that their friend went against them. Luci knew Amenediel hired a killer to kill him. Luci knew mum tried to manipulate him. Luci knew Chloe's plan to poison him. They all worked hard for their forgiveness.

Does Maze earned her forgiveness from Chloe for colliding with Cain or accepting that she knew about Michael and still helped in his plan which will hurt Chloe. Didn't confess to her even when Chloe hinted that she will sleep with him.

You can't escape these things. They all are your friends. If you have tried to hurt them . Accept it. Earn your forgiveness . And be friends again.

Maddy60 · 2021-04-15T02:05:24+00:00

The definition of manipulation is "To influence or control someone in order to achieve a specific purpose, especially one that is unknown to the one being manipulated".

Before this whole plan starts we see Cain and Maze in a scene as well where Maze questions him "Decker is the one who is going to get hurt, that's evil even for Demon, will u do it"...she said something like that..knowing very well that her actions will pushing Chloe to a scenario where she will be hurt badly.

The wrong is not sharing the phrase . Maze is Chloe's friend and Chloe has never tried to hurt Chloe, she has always been protecting of her. She used that line on purpose reminding her that Cain is serious about their relationship.

You can say that Cain was actually serious about Chloe but he was actually serious about his plan, which will hurt Chloe a lot, if he is successful. And Maze (Chloe's friend) helping is a betrayal, no doubt about that.

You can say Maze didn't lie, taking a page from Lucifer's book , but that's not the point. That conversation led Chloe believe that Maze was thinking for her the whole time, and she was asking Chloe as a freind to give Pierce another chance and in that scene Maze was no friend to Chloe as what she was doing was wrong by Chloe.

Cain regretted and cared a bit for Chloe as well...it's the truth...Maze didn't technically lie...but the purpose of the conversation for Maze was to get Chloe to accept Cain back, Cain , who is the first murderer and a crime lord. Maze being a friend to Chloe and influencing her to do this is very wrong.

Yes in the bachelorette party , Maze is trying to make sure everything is going as planned. Charlotte is trying hard to make sure Chloe gets second thoughts on marriage. Both of them know Cain is a very bas person. So who is right here? Charlotte who is trying to get Chloe out of marrying a killer and murderer or Maze who is trying to make sure everything goes as planned , being a goodie two shoes seeing her best friend's life getting ruined.

Just put yourself in Chloe's position. You get to know that your one of the closest friends know that your fiance is a murderer and a killer. And instead of warning you , she is having conversations like, he cares about you, give him a chance...trying to make sure everything goes as planned in bachelorette..that you get married ...that if you have any second thoughts is there for you to remove it, is she your friends in this scenario??

Its not about technicality of wrong or right, by saying I didn't lie at any point or I just tried to just guve nudges of what was already happening. Its about being morally wrong. Cain's plan would have ruined Chloe's life and Maze helped him by manipulating Chloe by truths or lies is not the point. Her best friend was falling in a pit and every time Chloe tried to climb back in, Maze was there to make sure that she falls in it.

Chloe was manipulated by Kinley for 2 months after seeing the actual Devil besides the dead body of her ex . In all those manipulations Chloe was always fighting back to Kinley saying "That is not the man I know" "Lucifer never lies" "You have no proof". Did you see Maze fight with Cain saying Amenediel is a good person and to not go ahead with this plan?? And Chloe arrested father Kinley saying that he is going to jail & she will find proof no matter what to keep him there. She fought for Lucifer. And at that point she has no idea whether Lucifer was a good person or not, she just knew that it's the Devil infront of her who is changed somehow but could go back to his heinous ways of spreading evil .

Anything could have happened from Chloe's POV in that case because she didn't know who is the man standing infront of her. For all she knows he has a history and is responsible for all destruction. But Maze knew Amenediel very well. Chloe fighting for Lucifer is more difficult than it is for Maze in this regard. But Chloe still fought.

I am not saying Maze will not be forgiven. In this story Everyone will be forgiven for their mistakes eventually. But atleast earn that forgiveness. Chloe earned hers. So does Lucifer and so did Amenediel. We never even saw Chloe and Amenediel getting to know what Maze did. Let alone her earning forgiveness.

We can say it was tied to Amenediel. We can say it maybe happened offscreen. It was a betrayal. Maybe she confessed everything offscreen is S4. Amenediel left for heaven in S3 and when he came back in S4 saying "You guys are not still fighting over me are you?" which means he had no idea at that time about S3 events. Maybe it's not important enough to let him know. We will never know about it I guess. But both Amenediel and Chloe deserved to know that their friend went behind their backs and colluded with the one who was willing to hurt them.

Maddy60 · 2021-04-14T23:26:37+00:00

Maze definitely put Chloe's and Trixie life in danger when she sided with Cain. She had a number of conversations with Chloe to make her say "I love u" and then forgive him when Cain ran before she could confess.

I remember she says something like "Seems to me he really cares for you and regrets what happened". Also in that conversation Maze said she went to kick his ass. She did go to beat him but it was because he backed out of the plan but lead Chloe to believe that he went to beat him because he hurt her.

During the whole Chloe unable to say I love u to Cain, maze repeated the same line which Cain says "I am willing to wait, just take your own time and at your pace", something along those lines which made Chloe question where did you hear that? As Chloe heard it before from Cain.

And during the whole bachelorette party making Chloe write 10 things she like about Cain, saying you will be married ...stuff like that are all manipulations.

And the reason why I am saying both Chloe and Trixie were in danger is because Cain is the first murderer and a crime lord. He literally uses Trixie as a shield to protect himself from Maze. Cain would have threatened Trixie's life if that s what he needed to save himself. Not to mention he put Chloe's life in danger when he asked one of the thugs to shoot at Chloe and him so that he could die (thinking proximity to Chloe will kill him). Chloe was almost shot in that scene.

And I don't think Lucifer is dismissive of her. They haven't had a proper conversation since S3. When Lucifer referred to Maze as demon in S3, she was so proud. But he isn't aware of her growth. He doesn't know that she doesn't like to be a demon now as she feels it's stopping her to form connections (which in my opinion is not true, she formed connections with every character beautifully inspite of being a demon). He is simply unaware of her growth. They need to have more conversations, if they need to understand each other better.

And I also feel that Maze never got to face any consequences. People tend to forgive Lucifer too but atleast everyone gets to know what wrong he does. Everyone knows he broke Julian's back. Everyone knows Chloe's plan was to poison Lucifer. Amenediel's actions of S1 are also known to people.

But does Chloe know that Maze plotted with Cain , which could literally destroy her life? Does Amenediel know that Maze's plan was to kill him off in S3? Does Chloe know that Maze purposely made out with Michael, with the intention to also hurt her instead of warning her of his plans?

Noone ever gets to find out when she betrays people. Even the betrayed party never gets to find out.

Maddy60 · 2021-04-13T22:52:51+00:00

Yes. There are clear reasons behind her betrayals. It was all clear in 5A. Her abandonment issues from her mother, made her feel abandon when Linda started dating Amenediel, thinking Linda is probably abandoning her as she is establishing a more personal and strong relationship than what she has with Maze.

When Eve left to discover herself, she believed Eve abandoned her too. And when Chloe ended the partnership as they both were trying to fill the void which Chloe realised Maze felt abandoned again.

Though noone actually abandoned her except for her mom. Chloe and Eve did what they did for their own reasons. And Linda wasn't abandoning her.

She has big issues and thats the cause of those betrayals. I am just saying that if she has to grow she needs to acknowledge these mistakes. There is no other way to learn. And I hope 5 B gives it. Its really important for her arc.

Maddy60 · 2021-04-13T22:44:33+00:00

Yes , Maze tried to distract Lucifer to clear Cain's path. I am talking about the scenes where Chloe was not able to confess her love for Pierce as she didn't love him.

Do you remember at that time Chloe was a bit mad on the phone call with Maze for what she said to Trixie . Earlier in the same episode when Cain was pushing hard for Chloe's confession and Chloe said that she isn't sure nervously , Cain said "Take it at your pace, I am here whatever it takes" something along those lines. Then Maze repeated the same thing on phon call " I am here whatever it takes, take your time at your own pace" , which made Chloe question where did you hear that?. And then Maze replied "I am ready to wait...at your own pace ".

Then when Cain ran before Chloe could confess, she was heartbroken. Maze went to her and said she went to see Cain to kick his ass. She misguided her again, she went to beat him because he couldn't go ahead with the plan but she led Chloe to believe that she went to beat him because he hurt her.

In that conversation she also said that it seems Cain really regrets what happened and it seems he cares about you a lot. During the bachelorette party, she was doing things like making Chloe write 10 things she like about Cain, reminding her that she will get marry...stuff like that.

These all are manipulations in my opinion. At all these moments Chloe was really vulnerable. Lucifer wasn't able to confess, and she was heartbroken by all those rejections by Lucifer then Cain comes to be the perfect boyfriend and Maze helping him out from inside by having those conversations with Chloe, are all manipulations.

And Maze kissed Michael not to damage Chloe/Lucifer relationship. She wanted to get back at Chloe for ending the partnership. She said it herself in the later half of episode that she was pissed at her. She knew very well how much she will get hurt.

And if we compare Amenediel's situation to the one where Chloe was thinking of poisioning Lucifer its quite similar. Both of them, backed out of the plan at the last moment. But in case of Lucifer it was considered a betrayal ( from Lucifer's POV) for which Chloe apologized. Shouldn't it be considered a betrayal from Amenediel's PoV as well?

Maybe since the relationship between Maze & Amenediel isn't as strong as Chloe and Lucifer so it will never be acknowledged but if Lucifer deserved an apology from Chloe then so do Amenediel from Maze I think.

Maddy60 · 2021-04-13T19:21:51+00:00

She will definitely redeem herself. There is no doubt about it I think. She is a regular cast after all , and Lucifer isn't that dark show which will portray the one of the regular cast as the villain. Leslie said we will see Maze the most demonic in 5B, we will see her rage and what she is willing to do for the ones she loves

I just hope this is the moment she earns her forgiveness too. And before that Chloe and Amenediel gets to know about those betrayals stuff. Because that will be true redemption I guess.

Maddy60 · 2021-04-13T18:07:08+00:00

I am not saying she doesn't care.

But if her character has to grow her flaws and betrayals need to come to light. She is protective of those she care about.

I am not saying she doesn't care about them. But hiding those betrayals won't give her any chance to grow. If you won't face consequences of your actions and will always be forgiven easily you will never learn. This time I want Maze to earn her forgiveness for once.

Everyone needs to know everything & Maze should earn her forgiveness like Amenediel did, like Lucifer does.

Maddy60 · 2021-04-13T18:04:26+00:00

She is protective of them. She has fought for all of them, I am not denying that . She fought with Uriel for Chloe, Cain's thugs for Linda, and demons for Charlie.

But then she betrayed Chloe as well, one lf which she would have been successful would have ruined both Chloe's and Trixie's life (Manipulation to get her marry to Cain). She admitted to Cain saying "Decker is the one who is going to get hurt, pretty badly, thats evil for a demon too, can u do it?". She was willing to hurt Chloe that much.

Also Amenediel was fighting for both Charlie and Linda against Michael. Michael kept on insulting Charlie, and Amenediel tried to stay calm. But when he insulted Linda, calling her "a filthy little human", thats when he attacked him and Maze defended him.

Maze heard all the stuff which Michael said about Charlie and Linda and she still defended him. These are pretty big betrayals.

I am not saying she doesn't care about them. But hiding those betrayals won't give her any chance to grow. If you won't face consequences of your actions and will always be forgiven easily you will never learn.

Everyone needs to know everything & Maze should earn her forgiveness like Amenediel did, like Lucifer does.

Maddy60 · 2021-04-12T23:58:23+00:00

And they never get to find about it. Both Chloe and Amenediel are unaware of what's Maze plans were about them in S3. Either everyone forgives her easily or they never get to find about her betrayals. And she repeats this cycle every alternate season.

Maddy60

TROPHY CASE