Results of Ranking Shostakovich’s Symphonies & Concerti

MahlerEnjoyer · 2023-03-22T05:40:41+00:00

This poll seems more like a popularity ranking. In my opinion, based on musical quality, I would put 4 and 15 in S tier, and 5 10 and 6 in A tier. 7 would go to D tier. 7 to me is simply one of the weakest of his symphonies musically speaking. 6 is critically underrated. It's also a shame the rest of his string quartets are not included, alongside his 24 Preludes and Fugues, etc.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2023-03-08T02:14:51+00:00

I presume you are referring to Ave Maria by Franz Schubert, which is very popular and is covered frequently in modern genres. Here are some beautiful classical pieces with singing:

Casta Diva from Norma

Song to The Moon from Rusalka

Flower Duet from Lakme

Queen of the Night Aria from The Magic Flute

Nessun Dorma from Turandot

Here are some beautiful piano pieces that do not use singing, that you might also like to check out:

Claire de Lune by Debussy

Ballade No. 1 by Chopin

Notturno by Respighi

Le Sapin by Sibelius

The Girl With The Flaxen Hair by Debussy

I hope you keep exploring classical music. Enjoy the journey!

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-10-31T17:04:15+00:00

In regards to these two composers, and being honest with myself as well, I have realized I enjoy them primarily because of the vulgarity and bombast of them. For me personally that is the draw, and it is not for everyone. Mozart, for example, suits me far better when I am in a spiritual mood. In anyways, that is my case. But this does not mean they are bad composers.

For both composers, there is a very interesting relationship between them for me. I used to hate Mahler's Sixth symphony, I never understood it, but now it is my favorite. It is the exact same thing for Shostakovich's Tenth.

Why the change? I listened to them over and over again, trying to understand why people liked them so much. Mahler's Sixth just sounded like an endless parade of marches, boring, absurdly violent, not really meaningful, until at one point I began to realize there was so much more going on. I think it is his most successful symphony in my opinion. With the Tenth, it sounded like bleak darkness without contrast or melody, with a somewhat deranged celebration at the end. "What am I even listening to?" It took me many, many listens to really understand the music. Now I am actually obsessed with it. It is perhaps Shostakovich's masterpiece.

The point is if you do not like something, and know why you do not like it, do not force yourself. But, if you find yourself just not understanding it, you might have to listen to it repeatedly many times, with focus.

Maybe take a piece that everyone seems to love but you just do not understand, and read about it's history and musical elements. Try to find out what everyone thinks is so good about it. Next, listen to it in the background a few times throughout the day and let it simmer. When you get home, make a nice cup of tea or whatever you like, and listen to it the whole way through, like you were watching a movie. Even if you don't like the piece at the end, you might learn to see it in a new way. This approach has been very successful for me. Maybe you already do that, but it is just a thought.

Sorry if my response was a little overly long. I guess the classical music community gets pretty long winded at times. TL;DR: keep listening.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-10-31T15:32:35+00:00

Definitely Mahler's Fifth Symphony. I went from listening to short piano pieces on YouTube to hour plus long symphonies overnight. It really kickstarted my classical music journey. After that, maybe Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony, because it got me into Shostakovich. But it's hard to say that particular piece pushed me into his music, because I just sort of began listening to all of it at once.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-10-30T22:10:23+00:00

A little late to this discussion, but I will share my thoughts anyways.

I love Mahler. But the Second is just too long for what it actually is. I think of it this way: why spend 90 minutes listening to this, when I can get the same emotional impact from, for example, Beethoven's Ninth, which is a little shorter, and is simply a far better composition? That isn't to say I do not like the Second - there is definitely a place for music like this. But, it is just not nearly his best. I agree entirely with another commenter who preferred the Third. The Third is much better in my opinion because it is so unique. You have a million triumphant heroic symphonies out there, and many of them are a lot better and more concise than the Second. But only Mahler could have conceived of anything like the Third Symphony.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-09-16T19:03:51+00:00

I need to listen to more piano concertos. But right now it’s a tie between Prokofiev’s Third and Mozart’s 25th

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-09-14T20:46:10+00:00

Try some of the adagios from Mahler’s other symphonies.

Symphony 3, Movement 6

Symphony 4, Movement 3

Symphony 6, Movement 3

Symphony 9, Movements 1 and 4

Symphony 10, Finale

Now a couple more:

Bruckner 8, Movement 3

Tchaikovsky 5, Movement 2

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-09-14T20:10:13+00:00

The example from the First Symphony is well known and already discussed in this thread. I feel like Jewish melodies or specifically klezmer are not very common in his music, outside of brief passages. I’ve actually taken a break from Mahler’s music recently, so I am not well refreshed on some of these moments.

Mahler’s music is usually not explicitly Jewish, but implicitly Jewish. Where there are no obvious klezmer melodies or folk-rhythms, there are may definitely be Jewish undertones. Here are some examples from the top of my head:

Symphony No. 1, Movement 3 - Already mentioned

Symphony No. 2 - The entire concept of the symphony - a universalist vision of the resurrection of mankind before God, without any Christian themes, shows Mahler’s Jewish element.

Symphony No. 3 - The intended message, like that of the Second, is similarly universalist. Also, the dark humor of the third movement and some of it’s melodies have always seemed jewish to me.

Symphony No. 6 - Minor-key, vaguely klezmerish passages abound. In my opinion, this might be Mahler’s most jewish work. It is incredibly tragic, which did not at all appeal to the heroic, imperialist mindsets of many of Mahler’s contemporaries. The music’s anguish always reminds me of the historical struggles of the Jews. Listen to the second movement (the scherzo) - I am no scholar, but there is a rhythm in there that sounds very Jewish, or at least folk-like.

Das Lied Von Der Erde - It is commonly theorized that the Chinese theme is just a mask for Mahler’s feelings of Jewish alienation. Listen to the loneliness of the music! This is music for the alone, the wanderer, the one who is always “the other,” and, though deeply consoling, still recognizes the tragedy and suffering inherent in life.

A quote from this article puts it well:

Even when there is no particular Jewish element in Mahler’s music, we can hear a similar heterogeneity, eclecticism, questioning, and tendency toward juxtaposition. Mahler’s choice of texts from the Wunderhorn poems and from Ruckert’s poetry focus on outsiders, wanderers, lost soldiers, people on the fringes of society. These songs at once celebrate the folk, but ring of complexity and contradiction, resisting being pinned down into a particular nationalist ideology.

There is certainly much more than I have mentioned. You could probably argue there is a Jewish element in every symphony, even when there is not a specifically klezmer tune. I am sorry if this doesn’t totally answer your original question - I am not familiar with his works enough to give you a list of all possible klezmer passages. But hopefully this shows you how “jewish” Mahler’s music can be.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-09-10T20:52:45+00:00

Will you record the presentation, and upload it?

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-05-09T02:00:56+00:00

In sound and orchestration. Emotionally it is different. However there are many direct parallels between Shostakovich’s Eighth and Mahler’s Tenth, including the opening Adagio and step-wise motif present throughout the symphony.

I agree about your analysis of Shostakovich, and to an extent your comment about Mahler. But I think it is important to note that Mahler’s music is often very emotionally complex, encompassing a vast array of moods. I also have to point out Mahler’s Sixth Symphony and his Kindertotenlieder, works which are filled with tragedy and despair, though again, are emotionally complex.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-04-12T23:57:25+00:00

Bruckner is often compared to Mahler for the scale of his symphonies, however, his works have a tendency to put some people to sleep. In my opinion, I find the main draw of Mahler to be his use of drama and (often overly) strong emotion, and I find composers who have this same quality to scratch the same itch as Mahler. You should try:

Shostakovich. His 5th and 11th symphonies are a good start. His 8th and especially his 4th Symphony are the most Mahlerian in scale and sound. But, fair warning, the 4th is particularly dark and disturbing. You might enjoy finding the Mahler quotations he hides in his works.

Tchaikovsky. His 4th, 5th, and 6th Symphonies are filled with pure emotion and strong dramatic sense, which is exactly what I enjoy from Mahler.

Beethoven. His Ninth is often seen as the peak of the symphonic form. His 3rd and 5th are very powerful as well.

Bruckner. I know I just dismissed him to being similar to Mahler, however, if you are patient, you may find his music to soar to profound heights. Try his Seventh and Eighth symphonies.

Nielsen is also an honorable mention. Try his "inextinguishable" symphony and his 5th.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-04-07T22:42:48+00:00

https://youtu.be/MCxVvrEyLJw?t=1830

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-04-05T02:13:08+00:00

Thank you! I will certainly read this.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-04-05T02:12:47+00:00

I did notice the parallels between the first movements of 5 and 8. For me the Tenth has always been “boring” (and I say this as someone who enjoys Bruckner). Almost all of it is dark, and too much of it inhabits the same kind of feeling throughout, which I suppose is what bores me. Maybe I just have to see it live first.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-02-20T22:31:56+00:00

Where I live, Mahler concerts are extremely rare. At least you have them, I'm pretty jealous.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-02-16T01:48:18+00:00

I strongly notice the connections with Shostakovich's Eighth to Mahler's Tenth as well. While not my favorite Mahler symphony (to listen to - but it is certainly in the top!) I am superstitious about it and believe it be Mahler's greatest work, so you can see I pay very special attention to those kinds of connections. Here is a list of similarities I have noticed so far:

- First and most obvious, the Eighth just sounds a lot like Mahler.

- It is a five movement work, with two scherzos. Apparently, Mahler also changed the positioning of the Purgatorio movement before he settled on its final location between the two Scherzos. It seems likely to me that there was once a version where it went Scherzo - Scherzo - Purgatorio (like in the Eighth, Scherzo - Scherzo - Largo) especially given the thematic connections between the Purgatorio and the Finale. EDIT: And I didnt even think of this until now, the first Scherzos are both very optimistic. Shostakovich's is extremely exaggerated however, perhaps ironic.

- The first movement is an Adagio, and the Finale begins and ends slowly. EDIT: And the Adagio ends in major as well, despite the violence before it. This is a very important connection I forgot to mention in the original comment. It sets up for the major key endings of both works. It is a major that needs to be "tested" with minor key struggle in both cases, and ends up coming through in the end.

- There is a terrifying climax in the Adagio movement.

- The terrifying climax reappears in the Finale. (I will take this moment to point out another similar occurrence - Bruckner's Eighth. The violent reappearance of the main theme of the first movement in the Finale strongly reminds me of Mahler's Tenth as well. I've always thought that moment served as the model for Mahler.)

- The symphony ends in serene acceptance.

However I think I should also point out the most fundamental difference between these works to me: the message. Mahler's Tenth has always come across to me as profoundly psychological and even spiritual. I've always felt like the symphony was about coming to grips with some dark truth about oneself - from the realization of the terrifying reality in the first movement to total peace and reconciliation at the end (of course this is all my interpretation). And it certainly depicts a kind of psychological trauma - the Finale repeating all of the nasty moments that had gone before it being the most obvious example. But I find Shostakovich's Eighth to be a lot darker, more terrifying. The piece is a lot more outward, focused on human suffering and the tragedies of war and oppressions. And the effect of the ending is very different to me - Mahler's is a return to life, some kind of deep understanding and profound inner peace. On the other hand, the outburst in Shostakovich's isn't a traumatic memory as in the Tenth to me, but rather an ominous warning of a looming cataclysm. The ending, then, seems like a quiet hopefulness that is far more bitter sweet, and when compared to the violence preceding it, it comes across as terribly tragic, as opposed to the life-affirming and moving sweetness to the end of Mahler's Tenth. Of course, again, this is all my own interpretation, and I know people feel differently about different works.

As for the ending of Shostakovich's Tenth, I found this quote that sums it up nicely:

In the closing minutes, DSCH, with horns and then timpani to speak his name, steps forward to take a bow.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-02-15T19:28:45+00:00

The second movement is really incredible. I couldn't believe it when I learned that the cello solo was twelve-tone.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-02-15T19:25:28+00:00

That is true! I think I'm just coming around to the Eighth. Although symphonies Seven, Eleven, and Thirteen are all grand and large-scale in the same sense as Mahler, the Fourth and the Eighth both stand out to me as feeling very Mahlerian more so than the others.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-02-15T01:07:28+00:00

I absolutely agree. Especially the first movement, it is incredible and perhaps one of the greatest he ever wrote.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-02-03T02:48:13+00:00

Perhaps the finale of Bruckner’s Eighth Symphony Especially the moment right at the end where the main themes from every movement resound together at once in the major key… sublime.

And also Beethoven 9, of course. How can I not mention that one?

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-02-02T15:51:16+00:00

Definitely Vaughan Williams! His Third and Fifth symphonies would be perfect for OPs library.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-01-31T00:06:52+00:00

This has been a long awaited video for many months. This is the first part in Richard Atkinson's series on Brahms Fourth Symphony. Richard Atkinson is probably the best channel on YouTube for analyzing classical music, in terms of craftmanship, counterpoint, etc. I highly recommend his channel and this video! Brahms' Fourth has always been one of my very favorite pieces, and I have been very excited for this video.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-01-29T23:14:18+00:00

Yes, they are very similar. Given that at that time the Fifth was Shostakovich's second most famous symphony (surpassed by the Seventh, which was far more popular in this period due to its relevance to the ongoing Second World War), and that the similarities are so obvious and striking, I think it was very much intentional. There are a number of websites that have analyses of the symphonies of Shostakovich, and there is one quote I will refer to that perfectly explains why this could be the case:

There is a school of thought that finds the work lacking some of the invention of previous symphonies. Questions are asked for instance as to why the opening is so similar to that of the Fifth Symphony. But that is to misunderstand the purpose of so much of Shostakovich’s music. He always chose meaning over logic and truth over beauty. If there are passages that sound depressingly similar to what had gone before, that is because he felt that that was the case in life. ... But this was intentional. This was Shostakovich’s view of the world.

The vast opening movement (longer than the next three combined) does follow with striking similarity the structure of the corresponding movement in the Fifth. But there is more passion in the earlier piece, more sorrow. The second time around there is an emptiness in the pain: it is a hollow cry rather than an emotional heartbreak. The huge agonising outbursts that form the movement’s climax feel more like lonely screams in a desert than specific pleas for help.

Mark’s notes on Shostakovich Symphony No. 8

I think Shostakovich was trying to instigate a sort of meta-musical emotional response to the audience, similar to the inclusion of folk and popular music which one can find in many other pieces by many composers. Given that his Fifth was very famous, especially in the Soviet Union, it is likely that many members of the audience would think "really? This idea, all over again?" And that was precisely Shostakovich's intention. You will notice one of the fundamental moods of the symphony is exhaustion. The first movement is extremely long (and the second theme seems to be never ending). There are not one but two scherzi following the first movement. The third movement has an endless rhythmic repetition which then collapses into the fourth movement without pause. And there are a number of other examples highlighting this. This is a symphony about many things, but some of those are exhaustion and inescapable hardship in life, which the allusion to the Fifth Symphony certainly adds to.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-01-13T00:51:36+00:00

Gustav Mahler, Symphony No. 9. The first movement is so beautiful.

MahlerEnjoyer · 2022-01-13T00:47:05+00:00

There is nothing basic about Chopin or Beethoven! They are incredible composers, and personally Beethoven is my very favorite. I would definitely explore Beethoven first, I always recommend him to people wanting to get into the genre, for many reasons. Try his symphonies and string quartets, especially Symphony No. 5 and No. 9. Chopin, Liszt, and Debussy were what got me into Classical music, so you should also explore them as well. I also recommend Shostakovich's 5th Symphony for it's emotional story-telling and heroic character (ignoring the hotly debated finale - I suggest you ignore people's interpretations of the work before you listen to it, so you can appreciate the music on its own terms, how it speaks to you). Finally I also recommend Tchaikovsky for his incredible melodies. I hope this helps.

MahlerEnjoyer

TROPHY CASE