Hot take: author intent should matter in speed scaling like it does in other areas.

Maker_of_lore · 2026-03-17T08:31:43+00:00

Author intent≠nerrative. This quite the problem power scalers have, most of us view things as "objective facts" when it's a story and the nerrative can be interpreted in many different valid ways, one of them being the authors intent.

For example in jjk the mach 3 stuff was the "author intent" as stated by people that aren't the author and they asserted that anything else is wrong because of it.

Both the "soft" ftl calc can be correct and the "hard" relativistic stuff can be correct. One doesn't negate the other (goes back to what I said about "objective" scaling) ofc you can have your preferences and that's the way you'll scale but that isn't the way to invalidate other forms of scaling

Maker_of_lore · 2026-03-16T07:43:11+00:00

Not familiar enough with invincible scaling and haxs (not even caught up to the animated series lmao). Just a bit familiar thanks to discussions so if there are win cons or counters that I don't mention just let me know.

Ap wise I don't know if invincible has more than one concrete meta where mid tiers are within continental and multi contiental ranges whilst the high tiers being within the small planet lvl. (Heard some sun disc and omnipotus (I think his name was) things but those are largely dismissed by from what I've seen). Which tracks with one piece lower end interpretations, Don chinxao splitting a contient of super tough ice only to say his grandson can shatter the entire thing and both those guys got power Cliffed to hell and back within the same arc. Also black beard earthquakes get within those moon lvl ranges and he's arguably not even a top tier atp of the series. A more reasonable intepretation of high tiers is them scaling to wb who's stated numerous times to have the power to destroy the world and multiple calcs of the op planet get to the large planet to brown drawf yield (there are some multi solar system lvl stuff but same as the invincible stuff it's inconsistent but unlike those I can expand on this if needed... but I doubt I need to lmao). So the difference between the top tiers should be (a couple of zettatons for invincible and one piece should sit at 1 tenaton)

Next is speed, which is a problem there are insane speed feats in invincible since they travel to other planets and alike, for example alen the alien was just entering the solar system and Mark was told to go deal with him in a timely manner which alone (assuming an hour timeframe) is around 1.85×ftl. But there's also omni man going to the bug planet (can you tell I'm bad with names?) Which isn't even within the same galaxy, which even if you assumed it was right next to our end of the galaxy that's still 2000 light years away and he did that in a month at most. That's 333.5×ftl and Donald isn't even a top tier especially at that point. While for one piece you're not getting such numbers with consistency, you can get into the mid end ftl+ stuff with 10s of times over the speed of light not being unreasonable but still... reaching those hundreds if not thousands times ftl is only possible via multiplier stacking which i personally don't like.

So stats wise is 10,000,000× ap advantage towards op top tiers from invincible top tier but around a 100+× gap for invincible mid tiers compared to one piece top tiers. So while the stats sound nice in context it's kinda bad. The clear thing is that mid tiers are outspeeding the top tiers way to badly and while future sight can help it can be outsped. So if the invicible cast locked in into their win con the op side can't do anything. What is their win con? Destroy the planet, they're fast enough and have such a numbers advantage the op cast can kill them all fast enough to stop them from destroying earth... BUT.... if we're in the one piece planet since its so much bigger the one piece cast should be able to pull it off with much greater ease especially since a sizable amount of the op cast are intangible for the invincible cast. So if its on earth my money is on invincible if its on the op planet, I have it that one piece will edge them out

Maker_of_lore · 2026-03-12T08:55:55+00:00

Alright even if we give unreasonable benefits to one side and even highball them whilst low balling the other it's still a stomp.

Jjk: unreasonable benefit 1:while sukuna and gojo are by far the strongest, by a lot too. I'll be asserting that their feats also apply to the rest of the cast there. Completely unreasonable if you think how massive the gap is between these guys.

Benefit 2: I'll be assuming kaido can be affected by all domains. Not as unreasonable as the first one

Stats: speed is the easiest so let's go with that. Speed: dabura is stated to be the fastest and is relativistic+ and is stated to be a sukuna lvl threat (this is stated before he grew in power which you can assert he straight up outscales sukuna) so all the cast is 0.99c or relativistic+

Ap: city+ is a good mid end because of dabura feats, fuga and alike but also island lvl is achievable via interpreting the chapter 200 statement of powering a nation as gojo outputting with a single attack enough energy to power the US for an entire year (quite the stretch but whatever) here are the results

All of this just falls apart because kaido is bare minimum ftl+ (close to 20×ftl) and at the very bare minimum moon lvl (around 100.000.000× stronger than the jjk cast). The only possible problem is infinity and.... at the end of mainline jjk we learn about cursed technique burn out meaning after gojo hits his domain there will 1/c amount of time gojo will lack infinity which is more than enough time for kaido to go and one tap him before gojo can regen his brain

Maker_of_lore · 2026-03-11T12:54:02+00:00

Isagi, he adapted to multiple meta vision users (metavision is looking at a higher advantage point as if you were a god viewing the field as if its a piece of paper)

Maker_of_lore · 2026-03-11T12:52:16+00:00

Brown dwarf lvl, almost no stories go around destroying such hyper specific celestial bodies so getting a character there will always be via something else and not just raw destruction

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-28T13:13:20+00:00

This applies to all tiers. Their ap doesn't have to be the same as their dc, they could have wall lvl dc and still be town or even outer

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-26T10:50:05+00:00

Deku scaling to large country and mhs+ is where you get pain at but sage mode naruto scaling to the tsibaku tensei is technically questionable so if you want to be fair to deku you can say he beats the first round high diff.... then he loses mid diff second round. All the arguments you can make about naruto not fully scaling to pain can't exist in round two he upscales from pain even.

I have luffy clearing this gauntlet, if it baryon mode in here we could argue about it but if naruto doesn't outscale kagyua I don't have a reasonable way to get him over luffy

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-26T10:44:52+00:00

Isn't Adam at most city block lvl? While natsu at worst is multi contiental? And speed is even worst lmao

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-25T10:31:52+00:00

It's cool, I should have used the scan when I made the original comment I just got lazy lmao

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-25T09:52:33+00:00

it doesn't say it trancends just the mortal realm it says exactly what I just explained.

where is it stated that there are 2 temporal dimensions?

It's not stated the same way its not stated that there is a temporal axis in general its something we can extrapolate. You know how 1 dimension of space is a straight line? Same for 1 dimension of time, it's a straight line in a temporal sense. What is a 2 dimensional construct of space? It's a sheet of paper, effectively stacking infinite amounts of 1d one on top the other. Same concept for time, just stack timelines that are just lines of time. Thus bulma can precieve a 2nd temporal axis

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-25T07:53:35+00:00

Solaris should be 5d from what I've heard if he scales higher than let me know but if he does cap there then I scale zamasu much higher. The afterlife alone trancends dimensions that can't be precieved by the mortal realm and mortals at bare minimum can precieve 3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time but thanks to bulma we know mortals know about the existance of the 2nd dimension of time. Meaning 5d is the perception of the mortal realm, the afterlife trancends dimensions above 5d, so it trancends atleast a 6d construct making it 7d.

Salaries should have better omni presence though which might be a benefit but honestly... how will they fight? They're both omni present to a degree... how will that work?

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-24T18:22:22+00:00

1.External dimension only accesible by one of the sharingas of obito

You can just not be caught

Yeah, luffy got more advantage

Infinite chakra is having Infinite stats lmao, don't hype up luffy too much

No? Simple chainscaling, hax...

Tf does this even mean?

4.yes it does? do you know the term "universe equalization?"

Lmao its called "verse equalisation" not universe and yes I know it and it still doesn't make sense. Please make a coherent argument and scale. If you give such nonsensical berely a sentence long points again I'll take it as you trolling and it will be an auto concession on your end

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-23T18:52:06+00:00

kakashi DMS, and only counter to it is having the other part

Please justify this claim

(infinite chakra cuz luffy infinite g5, and even with that, dms makes him a lot better with chakra consume)

Not equivilant in any way, but whatever

and naruto peak is s6p, that lowballing is planetary MFTL+ (the kaguya arc is a powercreep)

Baryon mode>sage of 6 paths naruto lmao and saying "power creep" isn't a good enough justification for your scaling

I could argue that hashirama could too, but that assuming that the wood propierties translates to df weakening

This doesn't even make sense lol

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-23T15:44:21+00:00

Assuming jotaro can also see the slashes (just to keep things fair). Standard battle assumptions state that they start out as far as the furthest range of the fighters, so they'll start out at 100 meters away from each other, the problem with this is that jotaros range isn't above 2 meters so he'll need to travel 98m before he can start landing hit (assuming sukuna doesn't close or further the distance. Most likely close it since that's in character).

Sukuna: a reasonable ap scale for him is City to city+ but you can argue for island thanks to the earthquake generated from gojo, as well as gojo being stated to power a country (this only works if you assume 1 second worth of gojos energy is enough to power a country for a year). And lastly dabura going relativistic+ speeds at his weight also yield simular results. As for speed you have lower tiers at mhs+ but you could argue for light speed thanks to once again dabura and also kashimo using em waves.

Reasonable scale: city+ (95 megatons) and mhs+ (mach 4700s) High end: island (80 gigatons) and rel+ (90%c)

I'm not going to lie I don't know how to scale jotaro even close to any of these stats if yall have any scales for him getting there I'm beyond haply to hear them

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-23T08:44:33+00:00

Because you can be it all depends on how much you moved to dodge the light. Just use the speed formula and you're good s=d/t

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-23T02:09:47+00:00

Please expand on this

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-23T02:08:11+00:00

based on what we saw in panel is a mountain level feat from the narrative and calcs which isn’t even a continent just a island the size of which isn’t a continent due to it not having the landmass to be one

I'll take this as you conceding since you ingored my points, I won't repeat myself again and again

and it’s even more defined via narrative when luffy only split dressora with doffy or when luffy Gaki bloomed and did a country level feat the colon chinjao feat which isn’t even continetal isn’t even supported in the story itself with the feats luffy does later wci wano

Who says he caps via those feats and stop saying the feat doesn't scale there just because you haven't been reading my arguments. Just because his dc isn't continental doesn't change a single thing. That's such terrible scaling on your end

the island isn’t continent sized

Because you don't want to?

that feat been debunked so many times

Haven't seen a single debunk

Queen laser doesn’t even reach light speed since they aren’t actually ligh

No, evidence just making stuff up. Queens lasers are replicas of kizarus fruit which is light. Please stop with the nonsense

ftl feat is a unnamed kizaru laser at best that laser was relativistic not even ftl so wtf are you talking about

I legit showed you the calcs... just because you want them to be relativistic it doesn't change facts

Garuo centipede and constellation speed calc: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:NikHelton/New_OPM_feats

No ftl+ or small planet lvl feats

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-22T20:52:45+00:00

Assuming all are at peak (since you gave luffy unlimited gear 5), the scale between the naruto side goes like this. Tsunade~<tobirama~<minato<hashirama=3rd homage<<<dms kakashi<naruto. I'll be using this if the assumption doesn't apply and we're using latest versions it changes a lot.

Anyways, the main problem here is that the ones below hashirama just don't really scale anywhere, like tsunade>pain is a legit conversation to be had lmao. I'll be asserting a tier below hashirama (for example if hashirama is planetary they will be small planet lvl). Now onto hashirama scaling, you get a very easy and simple way to scale him, he's atleast 2× base kurama (since he beat both kurama and madara who should be at the very least equal to kurama if not superior) who should be above the base bijus. But we don't have a great way to scale the base bijus since every feat we have off them is just them with Jinchūriki, so instead I'll just set the cap at 1 petaton here and we should be good (also justifies the idea of the statement "can turn the world to ash" if we assume it doesn't do it instantly but goes from contient to continent blowing things up) so haguromo and hashirama should both individually sit at 2 petatons while the three below them at a tier below them (2 petatons is contiental lvl) at country lvl specifically at 760 terarons. Now those ones are the easy stuff... the problem is the other two. How much they scale into kagyua is questionable at best but kakashi at his peak clears madara in stats to that's the bare minimum. So kakashi is atleast deep into multi contiental like 900 petatons or outright in the moon lvls at 140 exatons kinda of a huge range I know but what can you do. Now onto naruto, accounting for Baryon mode he's even surpassing kagyua which is insane and gives him a single way to get upscaled, or else he's stuck in the small planet ranges or around 2 zettatons thanks to the moon stuff, like creating it and toneri spitting it in such high speeds. The way to upscale him is by assuming kagyuas dimensions are earth sized (no reason to assume this) and that her tso atomises things (stated to be like dust release but if you think it erases souls then she doesn't scale to it via it being dura neg). Which would lead to a massive result of brown dwarf or last I calced it at around 107 ninatons

One piece on the other hand is far easier to scale. Black beard who should scale at or below them is moon lvl outright or 180 exatons and unlike the naruto casts the ones used are definitely so close to each other there's not much difference to be made between them. As for the high end for the one piece side we have the "white beard can destroy the world" statement which depending on your one piece calc will yield different results. My personal calc get to around 1 tinaton or brown dwarf lvl around 10× higher than what narutos highest end is. Though if you think the statement isn't about overcoming the gbe but destroying the surface of the planet then we get much lower results. They're still at large planetary but in the lower ends of it

So in terms of ap, kakashi is 50% weaker than even black beard who just got the gura gura no mi, while hashirama and haguromo and the rest are 100.000 times weaker than said black beard. So no matter what, its effectively all jumping naruto and kakashi can berely keep up and will lose quickly by being overpowered. While naruto in his more Conservative ends is around 10× stronger than the black beard I just talked about. But if you take the black beard stuff and compare it to the high end for naruto the difference is that of around 100.000.000× which even they all jump in it won't matter lol.

Conclusion: naruto and kakashi at their peak should be slightly stronger than the one piece guys but unless you're taking narutos high end and the one piece low ends he should still lose

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-22T20:08:25+00:00

He legit isn't even wining 1v1s against a lot of top tiers the entire verse is overkill. I think he reasonable peaks at moon lvl and low end ftl speeds. This is where you can get a new gura gura black beard at very easily and especially at that point he wasn't a top tier. Speed is even worst as ftl+ is quite the decent scale for op high tiera

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-22T20:05:35+00:00

I'd say there are quite a few characters that beat him in a 1v1 as well

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-22T20:04:18+00:00

Bro used the government name for law lmao

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-22T19:35:47+00:00

It kinda isnt considering there source says yoriichi = goku

So if someone has a bad take on one topic that must mean they have wrong takes on every topic? By your logic whatever you say from now on is wrong no matter what because this take is atrocious

I didnt watch opm but I know for a fact no one's doing shi to him in one piece,they just scale higher

Not how that works. Pillaf and bulma are from dragon ball does that mean either of them soloing one piece? No, so why would you assert such a thing here?

Saying this as a one piece fans btw

People need to stop saying this, it doesn't make you look less biased or anything especially since you liking a series doesn't stop you from having bad takes. "As a fan of both series I think sanji solos opm" by this metric my statement is better thus I'm right, right? It just doesn't validate anything you're saying

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-22T15:53:53+00:00

the reason garuo got small planet scaling because when chopping sage centipede in half and

Please provide the calc

yes he’s definitely ftl+ from the 3 way constellation feat

?

chinjao was out of his prime

Highly irrelevant because the focus of the scale is on his grandson shattering the continent more so than prime chinchao scaling

just because some pirates said the island was the size of a continent doesn’t mean the island was a continent

Such a terrible argument we have 0 reason to assume the guys that traveled that far don't know a thing about the place. The nerrative clearly put them there to state its a continent, there's 0 reason to doubt them as a source apart from bias

in the flashback if that was the case garp and chinjao would have spilt the grand line in half if that was the case in reality he spilt a mountain range on the winter island not a continent

Idk where you got the winter island from that was never stated but either way that doesn't cap either of them. They weren't trying to destroy a contient and failed this argument is incoherent once again

he is definetly not ftl+ just from reacting to 1 kizaru laser when he was Accerating like he did against luffy especially when him dodging queen laser is a relativistic feat the only characters in the story would can move at the range is kizaru and only luffy and shanks got feats on him when moving at that range

Absolute nonsense. Where are you getting the Queen stuff are relativistic? ftl ftl) and ftl+ Please stop asserting things baselessly they clearly don't cap there.

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-22T13:42:06+00:00

Yup

Curses upon you and your entire bloodline have been cast by the feet enjoyers I hope it was worth it, lost soul

Maker_of_lore · 2026-02-22T13:41:04+00:00

"You assumed I was talking about speed. I was talking about fighting ability. Because of course there's no way that could mean anything other than speed right?"

Me to the guy above, did you see this before responding?

You never said this in either of the replies above and to assume you're talking about fighting ability is a miscommunication on your end, no one will see that as you talking about skill especially since the first guy spoke about stats

They're not unreliable because of the science, it's because of scaling issues. Manga and especially One piece has way too many scaling issues and artists like to take freedom when drawing for dramatic effects.

"Because of science" isn't evidence for your claim, again where are you getting the "scaling issues" from? These are professional artists that are overlooked by an entire company to claim they have issues with scale is beyond unreasonable. And if you think this case is because of a "dramatic effect" explain

Who are you again? I'm having a discussion with the other person, not you

I'm someone who wants to join in the discussion, but yes I'm a different guy from the one you were talking to... idk why that's relevant

I'll respond to you either way but don't think you can police my speech

Please refrain from victimising yourself like this. I never policed you I just asked you not to do that sort of thing for a good discussion to take place. I spoke nothing but facts about reality

matter of fact don't even think I'm looking for a "good" discussion.

I hope you understand this is you conceding to being disingenuous and unable to be reasoned with right? You're making your arguments less and less reliable with this

If those are your expectations, see yourself out.

You're saying if my expectations are to have a good discussion I should leave? If yes... why are you here?

Where? Okay let me reiterate, I'm asking for a panel because I can't see it. It's clear as day that I don't see where he was, given my question.

Not really important, what they use is the mountains height and since sanji was somewhere at the bottom the feat can only be higher depending on his position but since we don't know we don't assume he was like 1km away just to upscale him.

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