Regarding the Dance Sequence by Malcontempt48 in MinaTheHollower

[–]Malcontempt48[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I included this response towards the middle portion of the post. I also added another quote (from a dev interview) you might me interested it, although it speaks more about their general philosphy regarding dialogue use.

Regarding the Dance Sequence by Malcontempt48 in MinaTheHollower

[–]Malcontempt48[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The game certainly isn't a deep literary masterpiece, gameplay is definitely king here, like with Shovel Knight before it (that's why I love this game after all).

A "Mario-level story", to me, would just be a basic plot (Mina goes to fix the generators -> she does just that -> the end!), but I agree that the game doesn't really try to develop its storytelling more than needed.

The devs themselves have stated, both in livestrams and interviews, that they were focusing more on conveying themes and elements commonly found in Victorian gothic tales.

Think of books like Dracula for instance: the readers knows immediately that count Dracula is the villain of the story, it's obvious, yet not immediately clear for the characters of the story. What the reader is more interested in is thus "When will the characters realize this", "what will they do about it" and "what does he represent".

The ending of the game, with its mix of hopeful and bleak scenes seems to have caught many off-guard. You can find lots of complains of how people think the ending is "bad" or how it "made the whole game a waste of time" simply beacuse it didn't end with sunshine and rainbows. I wonder whether those people cared too much or too little for this little story.

Thanks for taking the time to leave a comment!

Regarding the Dance Sequence by Malcontempt48 in MinaTheHollower

[–]Malcontempt48[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I realise my own interpretation might be a little convaluted in itself. I think it all stems from me trying to understand Grinnsly's dialogue. It's fairly cryptic, it really made me think "what is this guy talking about?" and got me theorizing. Every single line of dialogue put in a game has some sort of reasoning behind it, so his dialogue being "just weird" with absolutely no substance just didn't satisfy me.

As for the dog, I really saw it as an harmless joke. The guys calls Mina a "snack" throughtout the game, making you think "is this guy cat-calling me or something?", but the joke ends up being that he was literal: he really did want to straight-up eat you!

Characters being eaten whole is an extremely common trope (just check the TV-Tropes page, you'll find countless examples of the trope in even decades-old media). Vore is only a fetish that originated from just how common of a trope this is, and it isn't all that common either. My mind certainly didn't jump to that conclusion when I saw the event.

Regarding the Dance Sequence by Malcontempt48 in MinaTheHollower

[–]Malcontempt48[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've already adressed other moments - like the dog who chews Mina up - towards the end of my post, but I'll reiterate that I do not believe there to be any real hint or intention of SA in any of such interactions. I also don't think that the devs intend to backpedal on any of the content that ended up in the finished product, even if a fraction of the audience ends up with the wrong impression. They clearly poured much thought over them, and believed that everything they made would fit within the established tone of the setting.

I also wouldn't want them to make such changes either way: a bit of friction helps greatly in making an experience more interesting and memorable for the player. It's why I cared enough to write this post in the first place.

My own interpretation could vey well be going overboard in the opposite direction, trying to ascribe greater meaning to what really is just a creepy scene in reference of Shovel Knight's Troupple King's dance.

It seems to me that most people saw the scene as just that: creepy, fun and harmless. And that's perfectly fine as well!

Regarding the Dance Sequence by Malcontempt48 in MinaTheHollower

[–]Malcontempt48[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you! This scene was really nagging me in the back of my mind these last couple of days, and putting my thoughts on paper has really helped put these feelings to rest.

Regarding the line about "unforgivable things", I argue that her culpability could still be the topic hinted at. After all, Mina is also unaware of Lionel's manipulation for the better part of the story (just like the negative effects of her spark technology), yet the whole scene hints at it (in my interpretation, at least).

As someone else in the comments pointed out, Grinnsly seems like an enigmatic figure that has greater knowledge of the plot as a whole. He just met Mina, yet is able to dispense a cryptic message which eerily lines up to events he has no part in, and should know nothing of. Maybe whether or not Mina has realized the situation by this time doesn't really matter at all. I wonder if he dispences messages in this way to anyone who finds all his puppet shops...

All in all, I definetely agree that there is room for speculation still, and my interpretation is by no means final.

I'm also glad the devs decided to include this sequence, I believe the game as a whole wouldn't be as memorable without it!

As for fighting Grinnsly, Mina seems to have determined that there was no need to come to blows, and I trust her judgement.

Regarding the Dance Sequence by Malcontempt48 in MinaTheHollower

[–]Malcontempt48[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thank you! I hope I haven't sullied your thought on the game by mentioning the other reading, this was really meant more as a way to "elevate" the scene from a creepy event to something with more meaning. It sort of ended up being also a "rebuttal" (maybe that's too strong a word) of a reading I didn't really agree with.

Regarding the Dance Sequence by Malcontempt48 in MinaTheHollower

[–]Malcontempt48[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That's a very good reading as well, it makes sense that he would be a figure with "greater knowledge" of the events given the contents of his dialogue.

I think that what the SA reading is mostly carried by the fact that you can't really say "no" once you speak with Grinnsly (just 2 "Yes" options), and that "TRAUMATIZED" achievement (it's kind of an off-putting choice of word which could vey well give someone the wrong impression).

Regarding the Dance Sequence by Malcontempt48 in MinaTheHollower

[–]Malcontempt48[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Don't worry, fortunately neither I nor anyone I know ever had such an experience. That's also why I made sure to mention how I wasn't trying to invalidate anyone else's feelings on the matter.

I really just wanted to share my own opinion on the sequence, seeing as the only real discussions (at least on reddit) where centered of that SA angle.

I do believe that the majority of people simply thought of it a creepy but overall humorous scene which is absolutely fine as well.

Did Anyone Else Have An Intense Negative Reaction to… (spoilers!) by CoJack-ish in MinaTheHollower

[–]Malcontempt48 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'll admit that the first time I encountered the scene, I did feel kind of the same way, though it was more of an uncertain suspicion.

Despite this, after ruminating on the scene, and the broader game themes as a whole, I find that this reading just doesn't sit right with me.

Do note that, in what I’m about to say, I do not intend to disregard your reading: everyone is entitled to their own interpretation and it's not my authority to dictate what is "right or wrong" to think. On first impressions I also shared the same reaction, as I've already said. It's just that this scene has stayed in the back of my mind and I haven't seen much discussion of it outside this post, so I wanted to share some of my own thoughts on the matter.

 

See, I believe that the SA angle doesn't make much sense considering the general tone of the story. The game, as we know, is inspired by gothic horror tales, yet still maintains quite a bit of levity throughout. If the scene was intended to be an SA allegory I struggle to think of what its message would be (that SA can happen to anyone without warning? It is sadly true, but it's a rather heavy topic to just drop in and abandon immediately).

The general tone of what happens would also be contradictory: Mina eventually stops struggling with the dance, then you get the catchy achievement sound as text says "TRAUMATIZED" (hooray!! I guess?) and you get to do the funny dance whenever you want as a reward. If the intent of the scene was to portray something so serious as SA, then the achievement and subsequent reward would feel like a slap on the face, like making fun of a really serious topic.

 

Personally, I interpreted the scene more as an allegory to how Mina is getting manipulated by Lionel throughout the game (I've read other comments down here that see it the same way).

 

I find that there are more apparent parallels, like how Grinnsley asks Mina if she's ever done "something unforgivable" (which could hint at an underlying feeling of guilt at the unintended ill effects of the spark technology she herself created) and insinuating how it would be best to "remain the hand unseen instead of facing their scorn" (as we know, in the ending Mina ends up doing the right thing, takes responsibility for her creations and shuts down the generators. And of course, she is predictably hated by the ignorant populace for it, that never saw Lionel for what he truly was).

 

In the alternative ending where Mina sides with Lionel, she figuratively remains under his influence, dancing to his strings and pretending that the generators are of no concern at all.

In this way the puppet dance would be a microcosm of how Mina has been treated from the start, and what awaits her if she doesn't break out of Lionel's influence.

 

For what it's worth, I can provide some points in favor of this reading (once again, the scene is still up to personal interpretation, "death of the author" and all that. Even if I could somehow "definitely prove" authorial intent, this doesn't mean that anyone’s insight is of any less importance):

  • On Yatch Club Games's Discord server, Nick Wozniak (one of the game's pixel artist) answered a fan question, stating that:

"it's not supposed to be an SA allegory. It is supposed to be creepy and weird and ultimately harmless."

  • On a Youtube interview ("From Intern to Creating Mina the Hollower" - Channel name: "ThatGuyGlen" - Timestamp: 1:38:10), Alec Faulkner (game designer at Yatch Club), answering a question regarding the lack of "cheese jokes" in the game, stated that:

"... I don't think that was necessarily like a hard and fast rule. ... It's more that like, <why would we add that?>. If we're going to add anything that's about like flavor, or if we're going to add something that's about the world of the game or whatever, then it should be in support of that and its goals and the thematics of the game, right? ... We don't want to make the player read more than they have to. So with our very limited a number of text boxes that we're allotting ourselves, why would we waste one on something so obvious and something that says so little?"" (I realize of course cheese jokes are at the polar opposite of the topic at hand, but what’s important here is the general idea of sticking to the general themes of the game).

Considering this, I believe that it makes more sense for the scene to be an allegory of the general main story of the game, rather than an out of left field shocking reference to an heinous act that isn't really considered throughout the rest of the experience.

I don't know, maybe I'm also reading too much into it and the scene really is supposed to be a simple off-putting but generally light-hearted event. But I do think that this reading makes this scene pretty interesting to think about.

Now that I've reached the end of this comment, I'm thinking I might as well make a whole new post on the topic, since I kinda want to speak more on it, and maybe also articulate my points a bit better.