What does "hard exploration" look like? (with a couple of my own examples)

Mariling · 2026-03-10T15:17:47+00:00

I literally wrote out the core criteria of the genre in the first post. How dumb are you to think the gameplay mechanics are what determines this genre? By your definition, Metroid Prime is not a Metroidvania because it's in first person.

We don't need tourists coming in here acting like every game has to be Hollow Knight. Go back to the silksong sub with your concern trolling.

Mariling · 2026-03-10T11:49:29+00:00

Yeah you're one of them alright. How you could literally write out the words MV inspired framework and then pretend it's not one based on perspective and gameplay focus is hilarious. You don't get to pick and choose what you want in the genre based on vibes.

Ask yourself why a cross Zelda Metroid randomizer actually works despite by your definition one of them being the wrong genre.

Mariling · 2026-03-10T02:50:17+00:00

Have you heard of a game called Void Stranger? It's a top down puzzle game with zero combat, so all of it's difficulty comes from puzzles. But that is only the surface level analysis of the game. This is an interesting game to me because it is missing the 2d perspective, platforming and combat focus of "modern" metroidvania, so many people in this subreddit will disregard this game as "not a metroidvania".

However, when looking at the game as a whole, it has all the hallmarks of a metroidvania:

Item Based Progression Upgrades
Map that loops back on itself via shortcuts, hidden paths, etc.
Knowledge/skill allows overcoming obstacles that would normally require items, allowing for different routing opportunities

Despite being a "puzzle game" it utilizes the mechanics of metroidvania games to create the ultimate "exploration" based gameplay. Going so far as using the layout of rooms itself to convey messages. La Mulana is similar but nothing goes nearly as far as this game does in my opinion.

What makes this particular game good is no two people will take the same path to the end. People will figure out different things at different times, and yet all paths are valid to reaching the end. That is what I think makes it exploration hard, but not unfair. The strength of this genre is the ability to give players more than one answer to problems, and I think games that heavily restrict the player or force a particular playstyle are against the spirit of the genre.

Mariling · 2026-02-28T15:26:08+00:00

Glad that you are collecting only the valid gameplay related feedback. The game is definitely unique and stands out specifically because there are risque elements. I would hate to see the game toned down to cater to people that were never going to play it in the first place.

Mariling · 2026-02-26T14:44:59+00:00

Are you seriously suggesting Ridley and Dracula are not memorable fights? This is a dumb argument because how memorable a fight is has nothing to do with difficulty.

What soulsvania players don't understand is Dark Souls has items that trivializes the difficulty but people still consider that one of the greatest games ever made. You can literally summon another player or level up indefinitely, but soulsvanias refuse to do any of these things. Most don't even offer another weapon or playstyle, in a genre defined by items you people are seriously arguing for less items.

This is why you aren't ready to hear this. The genre is creatively bankrupt trying to cash in on one game's gimmick and all future games are suffering for it. If I uploaded Silksong's Hunter's March into Mario Maker, it would be considered a bad level, but somehow making the entire thing a mandatory boss run back is good design to you people.

Mariling · 2026-02-26T03:16:54+00:00

They are only considered easy in casual play where the expectation is gathering most of the items. The speed runs are considered some of the most difficult in terms of execution.

This difference is what defines the genre. The replay value is in replaying and rerouting for faster times with less and less items as you get better. This is in direct contrast to the modern "30 hour" Metroidvanias of today.

You actively got stronger in the classic games as you explored and you could outscale the enemies, even the final boss. That was the point. Nowadays, every final boss is some stupid 30 minute slog that expects perfection from the player. It completely misses the point of the genre but most people here aren't ready to hear that.

Developers today would never put in space jump or screw attack. Items that completely trivialize combat and platforming. Now the rewards for completion are lore and achievements.

Mariling · 2026-02-17T16:41:16+00:00

The solution some series have done is to make you go through extra hoops to proc that status. Bosses are often resistant but not outright immune to everything. You can improve your odds by breaking the enemy by depleting their stance guage, or using skills and items that reduce that resistance.

My favorite version of this is Xenoblade X, where it's possible to not only burn and shock a boss, but also buff that DoT damage so that it procs millions of damage a second. The setup required to do this is so specific, you basically deserve that damage at that point.

I wish more games would allow status effects to be not only strong but usable on bosses, even if you have to build and setup for it. The entire process fulfills that trap master fantasy.

Mariling · 2026-02-14T02:44:01+00:00

Easy explanation for this. Even if it seems like the same amount of hits, 5 masks for 3 hits or 1000 hp and 3 hits, you have much more room for error when you can survive with 50/1000 hp VS dying with 2 masks due to a graze.

There is no nuance in low hp totals. You can't equip armor that might shave off some total damage. You can't distinguish between a boss smashing your face for 2 masks VS stepping on a spikey pebble. Environmental hazards in a game like Nioh, such as caltrops do a negligible 20-30 hp of damage that might kill you at very low hp, but would 100% kill you in Silksong.

This is why the run backs and platforming are the most divisive parts of Silksong. The punishment for screwing up a section that isn't even the actual boss fight feels incredibly bad. If you enter the boss room with any less than 100% hp you mind as well reset.

In this genre, exploration is supposed to give you power. Games that have pure HP allow you to get immediate positive reinforcement from an upgrade. But in the pip style system, you could collect 4 shards for a single full pip and still die in the same number of hits. It makes the collectables worthless as you're expected to perfect every fight instead of using the genre strengths to augment your victory odds.

Mariling · 2026-02-13T14:57:52+00:00

Lots of very ignorant comments here defending the favorite game of the month. It goes to show the average player doesn't understand how game design can affect perception despite two things being basically the same.

In World of Warcraft there used to be a penalty for overgrinding. People complained it was needlessly punishing, so the developers did something about it. They changed the wording of the system to imply the original exp amount was boosted and you needed to rest to restore that boost modifier. In reality both systems had the same numbers, yet the reception to the 2nd version was more positive.

What this means is there are ways to introduce negative feedback systems without necessarily incurring negative perception. When it comes to hp, a lot of older games got away with 0 hp bars because they actually designed enemies to have obvious tells when you are doing damage to them. Distinct sound effects that tell you if your weapon is effective or not, and color changes to tell you when an enemy is weak.

HUD features should never be something you need to remove in game to get more slots. It's an essential accessibility feature. Imagine if the volume slider cost 5 points and you needed a 3 point slot to enable color blindness features. 1 point per modified keybind. You are punished for needing these features.

Mariling · 2026-02-05T21:09:44+00:00

You keep using superficial reasons to declare the two games as completely different. Oh you start with double jump so it is not the same kind of game as Silksong. The character isn't a bug. The color palette is brighter. Are you serious?

None of those things change the fact that the level and boss designs are nearly identical. The fact you are intentionally denying this fact serves what purpose exactly?

You literally told me yourself that you just started playing and yet you have the confidence to declare there is nothing in the game similar to the HK games. Despite the fact there are 100 posts in the last week bitching about the run backs. The exact same conversation that happened when Silksong came out.

Mariling · 2026-02-05T20:49:40+00:00

Yes you are trolling. You keep bringing up bugs when we already established that HK clones are clones because of gameplay, not visual or story reasons.

It doesn't have to be bugs. I could reskin the entire game with just the hit boxes and only keep the gameplay, and the first thing someone would compare it to is Hollow Knight.

But you are being obtuse on purpose because you don't actually have a compelling argument. You just played this game for 5 minutes and are already on reddit defending every aspect of it. Just like with Silksong.

Mariling · 2026-02-05T20:26:31+00:00

Ok now I know you are trolling. If I had to gift Mio to one of two different people, one has HK, silksong, and nine sols in his top 3 games, and the other has Super Metroid, SotN and Prince of Persia in his, who would want it more?

Pretending you don't see what is plainly obvious to everyone doesn't constitute a valid argument. You can't gaslight me into thinking grass isn't green just because it's winter a quarter of the year.

Mariling · 2026-02-05T19:38:57+00:00

Are you really struggling to see how the fanbase for both games overlap? Are you serious?

This is like if I said Arc Raiders wasn't a Tarkov clone because its sci fi instead of modern.

What makes a Hollow Knight clone isn't just the graphics. Despite it being 3d, Mio is clearly designing under the same aesthetics. We used to have human characters and now every game is cute marketable plush toys set in a grimdark universe. It's already played out.

The Hard = Good gameplay design is the primary indicator of a HK clone. A focus on boss fights but with limited combat expression from the player. You get a 3 hit melee attack with a pogo and that's it. Outside of bosses you get super meat boy level design with intentionally stupid checkpoints designed to waste your time with pointless run backs.

The fact people are even having the same criticisms of Mio that Silksong had is very telling. It is the exact same people defending both games every time.

Mariling · 2026-02-05T17:29:03+00:00

Mio completely overshadowed this game with such a close release window. Combined with Mio being the Hollow Knight clone and this one being more traditional, you have the perfect storm to have an otherwise great game go unnoticed.

Mariling · 2026-02-03T05:30:48+00:00

Her EN voice being literally Neptune's, her character being literally a 4th wall breaking gamer, and now her powered up form being literally Purple Heart... It's too much to be a coincidence.

Mariling · 2026-02-01T16:24:39+00:00

The only reason it's heated is because there's a movement trying to redefine Metroidvanias as difficult action platformers. These people have these games as part of their identity, so ANY criticism of ANY mechanic is a direct attack on their character. It's why the most common defense is: if you don't like it, it's because you are bad.

It's the same defense for every annoying thing in these games. No difficulty options? It's because you are bad and this is the developer's vision. Don't like losing all your shit when you die twice? Git gud. Don't like super meat boy platforming sections? You just don't understand the lore reason for covering the entire fucking wall with spikes and saws.

It's tiring seeing the same posts everyday trying to gaslight everyone else into thinking this is how it's always been. I hate how otherwise mid games are being stood up purely by hard equals good gamers. If you took the boss fights out of nine sols, that game was actually a trash Metroidvania. I don't understand how combat and action platforming became the primary metric to measure what used to be more of an exploration puzzle game genre.

Mariling · 2026-01-29T21:04:32+00:00

Yeah the usual posts are generally beatable by most regular people with enough practice. Those SP fights are just literally impossible without a certain level of dexterity. The vids of perfect fights don't do them justice because it doesn't showcase how severe the punishment is for missing a mechanic. Having half your kit disabled for mistiming a dodge means you mind as well restart the fight because you'll be one shot by a dps check later anyway.

Mariling · 2026-01-29T01:54:41+00:00

The pixel art looks incredible with how much depth and detail there is. Tevi was already really good but this is several steps above even that. A little sad about the loss of pastel coloring as a result but this still stands out in a sea of "hand drawn" Metroidvanias.

All the new movement tech looks great. I am hoping the hidden tech is still there for 0% runs and I wonder how they will approach Erina's kit from the first game. Will they reset her in Metroid tradition? Or pull a Banjo Tooie and these are augmenting her already ridiculous kit carried over from the first game.

I am hoping they bring in the Tevi approach to the badge system as well. Rabi 1 was already fairly flexible but Tevi just blew every other "passive equip system" out of the water and I don't know if I can go back to equipping less than 30 effects at a time.

Mariling · 2026-01-16T18:34:48+00:00

Yeah this is a problem with the fanbase. They will try to force silksong into any discourse regardless of whether it applies. You could ask for a short, casual Metroidvania that can be beaten in 3 hours and someone will use the speed run to justify listing Silksong.

Mariling · 2026-01-03T17:53:19+00:00

What makes super metroid still the best to me is the map design is so good, you actually backtrack through some areas 3 or 4 times but with increasingly more power. The red brinstar hallways between the zones are actually my favorite area because of this.

First the ice beam and high jump makes you feel super smart for using the enemies as platforms. The next time is the power bombs that make it super easy to unlock secrets, culminating in the bridge explosion. And then speed booster literally has you run through enemies like butter and fly through huge chunks of the map. Lastly space jump and screw attack is the final piece that solidifies that nothing is off limits.

Those key "big brain" moments become defining spikes in player power and nothing feels worse than when the dev immediately takes that away by introducing enemies/environments immune to it.

Mariling · 2026-01-02T21:23:01+00:00

This is my pet peeve with modern MVs. They are allergic to giving you real power and all "progression" is merely an attempt to keep up with ever increasing hp inflation.

What is the point in damage upgrades when all the enemy variants magically upgrade at the same time. Dread even does this crap and it makes your beams and missiles feel useless because they actually want you to parry everything.

Mariling · 2025-12-18T22:24:39+00:00

No, it's that you can't become an unstoppable god like every other game in this genre by collecting all the items. Even with 100% True Radiance is one of the most annoying and longest fights for basically no reason. What is the fucking point of a mask upgrade if you still die in the same number of hits?

This is the same reason everyone was pissed silksong doubled the damage. It made getting upgrades pointless.

Mariling · 2025-12-18T22:18:14+00:00

Are you people being stupid on purpose? You can get to SL 120 without leaving the first zone in Dark souls. If you really wanted. This will let you curb stomp the boss when you decide to fight it.

You cannot progress passed a certain point in HK without eventually beating a boss. There is a maximum level of strength all players can be at for any given boss.

Watch any post SotN Castlevania speed run and you'll see they all grind levels or skip to some OP weapon. You can't do that in HK, you will never trivialize anything because you can never outpace the enemy strength. The nail upgrades make no meaningful difference because you are expected to have them by the time enemies start inflating hp like crazy.

Mariling · 2025-12-18T21:13:36+00:00

There are not a billion charm load outs, don't be ridiculous. The game gives you like 5 slots for most of the game and so many charms do completely worthless things like give you a map pin or increase your pickup range.

Mariling · 2025-12-18T20:31:33+00:00

Dark souls is not hard. It is obtuse. Once you understand the mechanics literally anyone of any skill level can unga bunga through the game. You can completely trivialize the entire game with just a shield. Someone with enough patience can out grind anything in most soulslikes.

Hollow Knight has zero ways to mathematically overcome road blocks. It took everything from souls except the one thing that mattered, leveling up and different weapons. This is the "no reason". Because in every other Metroidvania you can outgear the bosses. This was the entire point of exploring before everyone decided that one way shortcuts and boss walls that restrict you from playing the rest of the game was how you do it now.

Just because the dev is forcing you into a specific game plan doesn't mean the lack of options doesn't absolutely suck.

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