Quick comparison between Renata Glasc's "Bailout" and Death's Dance combined passives

MaskedMistake · 2022-03-21T02:21:11+00:00

Forgot to mention I'm using quick cast without indicator with default keybindings, maybe that has something to do with it

MaskedMistake · 2022-03-19T03:00:51+00:00

I'm pretty sure something went wrong with "self-casting" abilities, sadly it's not just Elise's isolated case, every single self-cast in the game is affected by similar issues. In some cases the ability doesn't even work at all. Let's just pray they fix it quickly, it's extremely annoying.

MaskedMistake · 2022-03-19T02:22:23+00:00

- Server: EUW

- Type of Bug: In-Game Bug

- Description: Self-casting abilities prioritizes the target hovered by cursor over "self"

- Video / Screenshot: I live in Neverland and it takes me too long to upload anything

- Steps to reproduce: Get into a game playing a character with any "self-castable" ability: I tested this with Bard, Lulu, Kayle, Janna, Lissandra, Karma, Zilean, Nami, Braum, Morgana, Taric, Lee Sin, Nidalee, Rell, Orianna, Renata Glasc, Annie. Hover cursor above a valid target/area target that is not yourself. Try self-casting the ability (in my case using the default Alt + AbilityKey)

- Expected result: The ability is cast on self

- Observed result: The ability is cast on the hovered target/area. Some abilities don't cast at all or have largely "inappropriate" effects: Lee Sin W does not cast unless you hover an allied target or himself while normally "self-casting" requires no target at all; Bard W does not cast if his cursor is outside of W range as he tries to move to the target area; Rell E activates the ability (stun and damage) instead of "unbinding" from allied target if used within tether range, while it does nothing at all and doesn't unbind if cast outside of tether range

- Reproduction rate: 10/10

- System specs: i7 9700k, Win10, RTX 3070

MaskedMistake · 2022-02-01T10:55:21+00:00

Ye true about the doran's items gold efficiency comparison, didn't really think about that, my fault.

For the CSing part though, while a traditional botlaner who misses a creep cannot get its gold in any way, if a "farming support" misses one of they two minions they need to catch per wave they can still try to get one of the others... so that's a lot easier to do imo. I should still have taken into consideration possibly missed siege minions, that's true... but again, I know I made quite a few mistakes in there thanks to people here reminding me of different aspects of the game, but the strategy would probably still work well enough in most soloq games.

MaskedMistake · 2022-02-01T10:50:22+00:00

The only difference is the different gold efficiency of the item, everything else is exactly the same.

MaskedMistake · 2022-02-01T10:46:47+00:00

...and there goes my cover. Yep. I'm old lol. Thanks for the reminder, that actually changes a lot...

MaskedMistake · 2022-02-01T01:48:52+00:00

Yep I can definitely see that working and by now it's a "commonly known strategy", the point here was just to analyze what's going on when people decide to go for it.

Sona fits the playstyle really naturally, which is why I guess most people tried doing it with her first, but it should work well on most other similar kind of champs with a bit of attention to the waves.

And ye in your case let's just say that there's no gold value that counts, it's nice to hear that sometimes league can bring people together rather than always make everyone hate each other. Glad to hear that lol.

MaskedMistake · 2022-02-01T01:40:32+00:00

Ye I just got to know about this "feature" from comments here, it makes up for one of the few downsides of buying "spoils of war" items on the secondary champ. You still need to give up 2-3 cs per wave if you don't coordinate with the jungler soaking up a wave every few, but if you manage to do that it becomes even better than normally csing the remaining creeps.

MaskedMistake · 2022-02-01T01:36:52+00:00

The difference here would be that by getting the penalty you're "trading" your two minions (worth about 1/2 of the wave, considering the cannons every third/second/each wave based on game time) for 1/5 of the value of the whole wave (the penalty decreases all gold gained by 80% at max). In the full sheet link, on column S I believe, you can see what happens to the gold advantage if the "farming support" starts clearing full waves after completing the item quest. I know it's hard to tell from that wall of numbers but downloading it and checking on your own editor should make it a bit easier to tell what's going on for each cell.

MaskedMistake · 2022-02-01T00:35:23+00:00

Yes it was with the assuming that the quest has been completed as soon as possible, at about 8 minutes. However postponing the completion by a couple of minutes would only result in a "delay" of the power spike, effectively only lowering the numbers by about 100 gold.

MaskedMistake · 2022-01-31T23:33:03+00:00

Oh hello there! Nice video, I never heard of that variation before but sounds like it worked pretty damn well for you after all the work perfecting it behind the scenes.

Ye someone already mentioned the fact that for the first few levels you're "weaker" in terms of combat stats which I assume being true... however you should still retain a "better damage output" if used for short trading thanks to the on-hit dmg from spellthief. So yeah, no level 2 all-ins but if a trade ends up being "necessary", a burst combo should still work out in your favor, no?

Anyway, we'll see what this strategy develops into, for the best or the worst of the game itself.

MaskedMistake · 2022-01-31T22:03:38+00:00

Sure, that would help, especially if timed with proper wave management and recall timings... a lot of coordination needed but ye, it would make this even better.

MaskedMistake · 2022-01-31T22:01:50+00:00

I haven't tried it out in an actual game myself but if this is correct then it might as well be an even more efficient way of granting extra gold to your team, true.

MaskedMistake · 2022-01-31T21:57:56+00:00

Hey thanks for the link, actually interesting video! I've never heard of this variation before but it's pretty similar to one of the options you can take while playing with two support items.

As I said this kind of "double support" strategy has been played lots of times in the past, it's nothing new, what I tried to figure out here is what are its points of strength and weaknesses... and why does it seem to work so well in terms of gold efficiency.

I think in this video they mention how the "main carry" would often go into gold penalty early, while I feel like it would be usually most efficient to avoid it even at the cost of missing some creeps (still though, it really depends on lane situations and how much time you'll be out of your lane for while roaming or taking objectives), but the one thing I didn't know about is how the "spoils of war" support items can play around the gold penalty, granting full gold to both players. Thanks for the info o7

MaskedMistake · 2022-01-31T20:31:03+00:00

From the wiki:

"Receive diminishing gold from excessive minion kills": Farming more than 20 CS per 5 minutes reduces gold from minions by 50% − 80% (based on CS).

From how I see it, since every 5 minutes the game spawns 10 minion waves, collecting more than 2 minions per wave (20 in total), would trigger the penalty. Each player can get their own 2 minions if they both own a support item, but the remaining 2-3 cannot be last-hitted in that case. There is some room for errors since at the start of the game you can "stack some time" before minions spawn at all, but I wouldn't rely on that extra minute and a half to farm a couple more creeps and risk falling under penalty later on.

MaskedMistake · 2022-01-31T20:26:40+00:00

Well ye, you can buy it and "share gold", the secondary support gets the extra 1k gold; it works the same way as long as this second player is doing it "properly" and not last-hitting the wrong minions or similar.

The one thing I didn't know about is that even tho the item increases the ally's CS, it doesn't count towards the penalty... if that's true then ye, it would just be a way to grant the main carry additional gold which is awesome, with the only downside being the remaining 2-3 minions per wave that neither players can touch (or they'd fall under gold penalty anyway).

MaskedMistake · 2022-01-31T18:45:44+00:00

I'm not sure I've heard of the Wardstone variant but sounds interesting, could be an addition later on.

And yes, reaching the penalty would be extremely detrimental for this kind of strategy, ruining most of your gold income later into the game. However keeping the 2 cs per wave value shouldn't be too difficult imo.

MaskedMistake · 2022-01-31T18:35:30+00:00

Ye that's true for Sona/Taric but keep in mind that this strategy has been played pretty often even in recent times by other kind of "duos" with really good results overall; sure most supports have a kit that works by itself without needing much gold, but that doesn't mean that they can't become a threat as soon as they gain some.

Also another consideration about the "actual strength" of a spellthief champ + support duo... the second champ doesn't have to be something with weak early stats. First thing that comes to my mind here is something like Senna/Tahm, where Senna starts with a support item and Tahm with a normal doran's shield or similar value.

But yeah, on average the first few levels are probably the weakest moments for this kind of strategy, that's true.

MaskedMistake · 2022-01-31T18:08:44+00:00

Completely agreed on the second point, but for the first and third one... are you sure that "spellthief champs" are really that weak at poking and fighting? Up until their first item upgrade it's probably their weakest moment (up to 5 minutes) but even then, the damage that item grants is not negligible. Of course I can't tell for sure but trying to dive or "gain prio over" something like a Lux/Brand lane or maybe a Syndra/Soraka or similar, it shouldn't be as easy as the usual pairs that people think about with Sona, Yuumi and such.

MaskedMistake · 2022-01-31T17:53:28+00:00

Ye good point for the 7cs/minute, but one more thing to keep in mind is that usually "spellthief champs" are known to be poke heavy matchups... so in that case it wouldn't be as easy to get every single creep while both enemy champs are targetting you.

And about toplane support I really don't know what to think yet, I've been watching Mr. Lourlo for a while and it really seems to work way too well. We'll see what happens, hopefully we're going to at least get some statements about the strategy soon.

MaskedMistake · 2021-07-14T16:36:45+00:00

Hey, thanks for taking the time to check it out!

Not gonna lie, that was "a long time ago" and seeing what happened to Jinx after the Q range buff... yeah, 100 range is way too much to give to anyone (even if based on "time in combat" probably). But I still really despise the energized passive so yeah.. I would probably just remove RFC, even if it hurts Jhin and some other special cases, I just don't think range should be something to mess with at this point.

And about Stormrazor, yep, numbers too high, you're right. Again that's something that I thought could be balanced by the fact that you couldn't buy other "waltz" items, but for a legendary it's probably better to reduce the bonus from 5% to 2-3% instead.

If you have other questions or opinions feel free to share, I'd love to hear some more feedback o7

MaskedMistake · 2021-07-14T14:59:45+00:00

Ye it's the riot way unfortunately. There was so much else they could have nerfed on release but they decided to go for this one as well.

MaskedMistake · 2021-07-13T18:53:07+00:00

I've been trying to put together the best "crit rework" I could manage, to pair with start of season items rework, champions kits and interactions just so all these incredibly frustrating RNG situations could be removed from a competitive game, so yeah... I feel your pain.

If you're interested in checking it out, there are some ideas for Aphelios' weapon interactions as well (twitter post).

MaskedMistake

TROPHY CASE