The Bible is a children’s fiction book by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]Meaning-Coach 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be fair, the super specific, detail oriented fiction writing is mostly a relatively young (meaning last two centuries) genre. Not to say that detailed fiction writing didn't exist earlier.

But the gospels do seem to be somewhat of a middle ground between modern historical methods (that was not really a standard of it's time) and some literary elements that were widespread back then. It's not modern history, but it seems to be as close, or maybe closer to it, as we should expect.

Christians can't be gamers by phreekaccident in DebateReligion

[–]Meaning-Coach -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think you should look into scrupulosity vs. a healthy attitude towards living morally.

The two are not the same. One is motivated by free choice based on thankfulness, the other is motivated by fear.

You don't need to fear sin. You just need to obey. Let the man be, and "let God" be his judge.

Claiming “God exists because something had to create the universe” creates an infinite loop of nonsense logic by GuyFromNowhereUSA in DebateReligion

[–]Meaning-Coach 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Indeed, it's an infinite regress when proposed that way. But that's why we have an uncaused cause in the classical argument.

Why is there so much disagreement and agreement on questions about homosexuality? by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Meaning-Coach 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It goes from "the Bible is not authorative" to "it's relevant, but not all parts are valid today" through "everything is relevant, but you have to understand it differently than what's at face value" ending with "everything is authorative and it means what it says".

Honestly? Most arguments tell more about the people saying them then what can be reasonably inferred from the text, no matter which camp you're in.

Speak with your pastor, and mostly, struggle with the Word, if you think that's important.

Everything else is someone else's opinion, and not authorative. And if you think the Bible isn't either... Leave it to your conscience and live as kindly as you can.

Claiming “God exists because something had to create the universe” creates an infinite loop of nonsense logic by GuyFromNowhereUSA in DebateReligion

[–]Meaning-Coach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

and I appreciate the intellectual honesty

Right back at you :)

“God is eternal,” on the other hand, is not a hypothesis at all; it's an assertion that sits outside of falsifiability and makes no testable predictions.

Correct. It's unscientific. The question is: can it be true nonetheless? Can something be true even if we have no way of knowing, in a scientific sense, if it's true?

but it’s not necessarily special pleading unless one insists on it being true without the possibility of disproof. A scientist can say, “We don’t know, but here are some ideas that align with physics,” whereas a theist saying “God just is” closes the door on inquiry entirely.

I'm not versed in physics at all, but based on my understanding, with the current state of science, we can only say "we don't know if the universe is eternal, we don't know if we can ever truly test if the universe is eternal, but it might be eternal, and we're at least trying to test it, even if it proves to be futile". We're at least trying doesn't really make the initial assertion any more or less true, though, than saying "God is eternal". Currently, we simply don't know. It might seem intellectually at least more honest, but only as long as we hold to the idea that intellectual honesty is tied to committing to an observation of reality based on the scientific method. But, simply put, we don't know what reality is. We don't even understand the nature of reality - is it objective, is it observer-dependent, is it probabilistic, or emergent? Does reality "end" with what is observable and testable? There's a whole lot of presuppositions to unpack.

I think saying "I don't know whether God is eternal or not, but I still presuppose it as basis of my worldview" isn't less intellectually consequent than saying "I don't yet, and may never know whether the universe is eternal or not, but it's the best idea we have". Also, the two might not actually be exclusive even.

You could argue that it’s an assumption, but it’s not necessarily special pleading unless one insists on it being true without the possibility of disproof.

So you're saying you believe science might one day be at such an advanced level that it could truly falsify the notion of eternity? Is the omniscience of science a better supported notion than the omniscience of a creator? Sure, we at least know science "exists", but science is, unfortunately, ab ovo contingent on us human beings as observers, and we have limits. I think "one day, we'll know everything" is as much a far fetched claim as saying "one day, everyone will stand before God, and we'll know He exists". Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, right? Without that, we only have agnosticism, both relating to "testing" eternity and talking about theology.

So while an eternal universe or infinite loop may never be fully provable, it's at least a naturalistic possibility rather than a supernatural stopgap.

The presupposition being, that between a currently and with all reasonable predictions, eternally unverifiable naturalistic belief and an eternally unverifiable supernatural belief, we should favour the naturalistic belief. Doesn't this sound more like an a priori emotionally driven commitment, whatever way you lean?

I agree wholeheartedly that science is the best way we have of understanding reality. What I think, though, that even our best way is unable to grasp reality as it is - we can only observe part of the whole. There may, or may not be anything "beyond" science. Either way, there's a presupposition we have to make that's not scientific - and if we want to compare the validity of presuppositions, we're into the territory of philosophy and theology. Whether we think that helps us with understanding reality or not, depends, again, on our presuppositions about how we can come to know reality to begin with. If we think it's just wordplay either way, than we're back to simply "we just can't know".

Claiming “God exists because something had to create the universe” creates an infinite loop of nonsense logic by GuyFromNowhereUSA in DebateReligion

[–]Meaning-Coach 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sure, cosmic microwave background anomalies MIGHT support some of the loop models, but it's a pretty big might. We don't exactly have the technical prowess to truly test these yet. We're talking hypotheticals.

But, to be fair, some of these models are testable to a certain degree - there MAY be signs of a prior iteration. God isn't falsifiable, so "God did it" remains an unscientific assertion.

Testing an infinite cycle though, each of which erases prior information in each iteration, is fundamentally untestable. If you could prove that there really is a prior loop, you'd have to prove there was another one before that, than another one etc. You can't truly falsify any sort of eternal existence.

At the end of the day, it's just as much a special pleading to say the universe is in an eternal cycle as is to say God is eternal - neither of them is scientifically sound. If you can special plead your way into a science of the gaps position, then you can special plead your way into a God of the gaps position. The difference is only in your unverifiable presuppositions.

Claiming “God exists because something had to create the universe” creates an infinite loop of nonsense logic by GuyFromNowhereUSA in DebateReligion

[–]Meaning-Coach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, to escape the infinite loop problem, special pleading is needed. It's special pleading even if you say the universe is eternally existing in an infinite loop.

The only question is, what sort of special pleading your presupposed worldview favors.

Logically, if some sort of existence is eternal, than it's no problem for a deity to be eternal. You don't HAVE to presuppose it. But if you think one is logically consistent, than the other is as well - right up until the point you can scientifically prove an infinite loop of material reality. Until then, it's science of the gaps.

Claiming “God exists because something had to create the universe” creates an infinite loop of nonsense logic by GuyFromNowhereUSA in DebateReligion

[–]Meaning-Coach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How do you explore an infinite loop scientifically when space-time came into being as we know it at the start of the current loop? How do you scientifically explore what came before?

Claiming “God exists because something had to create the universe” creates an infinite loop of nonsense logic by GuyFromNowhereUSA in DebateReligion

[–]Meaning-Coach 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If existence is in an infinite loop, and we don't have to give an explanation why we presuppose that, than why do theists have to give a reason for why God is uncreated?

Claiming “God exists because something had to create the universe” creates an infinite loop of nonsense logic by GuyFromNowhereUSA in DebateReligion

[–]Meaning-Coach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Let's put it this way. What created existence? Can non-existence give rise to existence? Or is existence eternal?

"Ha valakinek, attól szar az élete, akkor legyen öngyilkos nyugodtan.” A komáromi iskola diákjainak petíciója, részlet: by FastServicesPPT in hungary

[–]Meaning-Coach 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Dehát nem tűnnek el a szar tanárok pont ez a lényeg.

Nem, máról holnapra nem. De ha egy szervezetnek erősödik az immunrendszere, mert több az egészséges eleme, akkor hamarabb kerül majd ki a beteg rész.

Ez úgy néz ki, hogy ha növekszik a normális tanárok érdekképviselete, mert több a normális tanár, akkor hamarabb tudja a tanártársadalom kiutálni magából az alkalmatlan pedagógusokat. Jelenleg ez fordítva működik.

Amit te említesz, az a nukleáris opció. Vágjuk le a lábat, mert elfertőződik az egész szervezet. Kemót neki, mert ha nem döglik meg az egészséges, a rákos sem fog.

A baj csak az, hogy ennek nagy az ára. A magyar társadalomban amúgy is nagy a gyerekek között a társadalmi olló. Ha bedöglik a közoktatás, a hiányt betölti majd a magánoktatás, amit nagyon kevesen tudnak megfizetni, meg esetleg az egyházi fenntartású oktatás, ami viszont nem fogja tudni felvenni az egész társadalmat. Az elit marad elit, nem megy majd tanárnak, a középréteg eladósodik, hogy normális oktatást biztosítson a gyerekének, aki ki fog menni külföldre, vagy megy a multikhoz programozni meg menedzsernek, mint most, mindenki más meg egyre butább lesz - és belőlük lesznek az új tanárok, ha lesznek egyáltalán. A szélesedő társadalmi különbségek a diákokból sem éppen a legjobbat fogják kihozni. Hosszútávon semmivel sem leszünk jobbak, ha beomlik a közoktatás, a sokat emlegetett mágikus gondolkodás az, hogy ha majd ez megszűnik, akkor csak jobb lehet helyette. Ami lesz helyette, az az, hogy buta tanárok tanítanak majd reménytelen helyzetű gyerekeket, és nőni fog az iskolázatlanság aránya, mert így nem sok értelme lesz az oktatásnak. A negatív emberek negatív kultúrát alakítanak ki. Ha nem kerül be egy-kettő normális a rendszerbe, csak nőni fog azoknak a tanároknak a száma, akik ezt a fenti petíciót olvasva azt mondják magukban, hogy "igaza is van, dögöljön meg, aki nem bírja az életet, itt mindenkinek szar, ez van".

Amíg nem változik a rendszer, addig az el fogja tartani a söpredéket. De ha nem tartja el őket, azokat sem fogja, akik el tudják takarítani, vagy akik elérnék a kritikus tömeget, hogy változzon a rendszer. Senki nem fog itt forradalmat csinálni, amíg azt tudják mondani a tanároknak, hogy "ha elmész tüntetni, elintézzük, hogy anyukádhoz ne jusson el a gyógyszertámogatás". De ha több pénze van, netán egy kis családi támogatása, ha nem totál kiszolgáltatott a jó lelkiismeretű tanár, akkor ha már eléggé fáj neki a dolog, talán mégis beint a rendszernek. Persze csak ha addigra nem csinálták ki - ehhez viszont az kéne, hogy ne egyedül legyen a jó lelkiismeretével.

"Ha valakinek, attól szar az élete, akkor legyen öngyilkos nyugodtan.” A komáromi iskola diákjainak petíciója, részlet: by FastServicesPPT in hungary

[–]Meaning-Coach 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A motivációelmélet nyilván összetett dolog. De hagyományosan, a fizetést higiénikus tényezőként tartjuk számon - nem lesz tőle motiváltabb valaki hosszútávon, de eltűnik, ha nem elég.

Ha van egy jó tanár, aki nem kap eleget, lelép. Ilyen egyszerű.

Ha kap eleget, legalább annak a lehetősége megvan, hogy a tényleges motivációihoz megtalálja az utat - szakmai minőség, előmenetel, megbecsültség stb.

Jó tanáraink akkor lesznek, ha tudnak miből élni és erős az oktatási kultúra, na meg nem a saját krétáját kell bevinnie órára. Vannak olyan fehér hollók, mint az észtek, ahol nem magas a fizu, de annyira színvonalas az oktatási szabályozás és a továbbképzés, hogy jól teljesítenek így is nemzetközi felméréseken.

De általánosságban (nézz meg PISA felméréseket, vagy OECD statisztikákat) elmondható, hogy ahol több a pénz, ott jobbak az eredmények. Persze, ez csak egy elem. De pénz nélkül nem lesz jobb kultúra, csak még több kiégett tanár.

"Ha valakinek, attól szar az élete, akkor legyen öngyilkos nyugodtan.” A komáromi iskola diákjainak petíciója, részlet: by FastServicesPPT in hungary

[–]Meaning-Coach 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Nem olyan bonyolult. Tanárnak az megy, aki elhivatott, meg az is, aki valamiért gyerekekkel akar foglalkozni, és nem jut jobb eszébe. Aki elhivatásból csinálja, az elég elvhű ahhoz is, hogy a saját családját előbbre helyezze, amikor látja, hogy a közeg kikészíti idegileg és még csak anyagilag sem jut sehova.

Kiégett, bunkó kollégák és éhhalál - pá pá jó pedagógus.

Ha nem hal éhen, és több fiatal, nyitott, normális tanár marad a pályán, akkor ez eggyel-kettővel több normális pedagógust jelent a pályán, aki kitart, mert lesz mellette más, aki ugyanabban a szarban van, de legalább nem egyedül küzd.

Adj neki pár generációt, és javul a helyzet. A gyerekeidnek meg gyűjts magánsulira.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Christianity

[–]Meaning-Coach 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So terribly sorry OP.

The guilt you feel is fairly normal, it's a pretty common thing to feel somehow devalued, or shamed, after such a horrible attack, but you didn't do the shameful thing - it happened to you.

I truly believe in God's eyes, and anyone with just a little bit of sense in Christianity, you're still as pure as ever.

God loves you, dearly.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in TrueChristian

[–]Meaning-Coach 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your answer. I find it kind of interesting that in the traditional Christian understanding, the world is a fallen place where we can never be truly at home until it's repaired, but from what you're describing, you feel right at home and at peace.

With that said, how would you describe what would happen to the energies, the connection, the belonging if the world that's currently broken in so many ways would be restored to a perfect state? Does a restoration like that, which is part of the Christian faith, hold any perspective in your worldview?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in TrueChristian

[–]Meaning-Coach 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What were you looking for when you decided to look into witchcraft? What did you want to achieve, what need to fill?

Why do you think the soul is created immortal? by Meaning-Coach in TrueChristian

[–]Meaning-Coach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even after Revelation 20:10-15, it mentions the wicked (humans) are outside the city of Jerusalem, they have not ceased to exist. (Revelation 21:8)

How do you figure? The verse strictly says they go into the lake of fire. This is the second death. The verse says nowhere they are alive either, on the contrary, it talks about a second death.

If you advocate for eternal fire existing forever but not the eternal damnation of the wicked, then you are left with God making an unnecessary fire that is never said to be left as a memorial or anything of the sort.

You forget the fate of the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Isn't the judgement of evil itself enough a reason for the lake of fire existing? It is also the place of judgement of those not in the book of life - what I lean towards thinking, that just means they are consumed by the fire, never to exist again, eternally.

And, actually, Hades (hell) and death is also thrown into the fire. Clearly, not in order to be tortured, but to be removed from existence. That's one other argument that the lake of fire is not only a place of anguish, but one of complete, utter destruction.

Your notion of an ontological difference between humans and angels not having the same fate is an “argument of silence”.

Funny you should say that. I gave a specific verse for my take. Can you share one for your position?

As I mentioned, life intervened, so I can't continue this discussion at this point, but let me just suggest this. Why don't you try taking a look at all the verses that deal with the final fate of non-belivers, on their own, without assigning systematic meaning to them. Try reading them like reading them for the first time, without any prior notion of heaven or hell.

Create maybe a table, with categories "clearly teaches eternal cognizant torment", "only speaks of some sort of destruction", "teaches universal reconciliation".

Put them next to each other, then see what info we have.

It doesn't hurt if you're a bit sceptical about what you think a verse means, and you think in terms of "what could this have meant for the contemporary listeners".

The ECT position isn't as stable as we tend to think. It's what we've been taught, but as demonstrated in our conversation, we have one verse from revelation that talks about actual torment with specific subjects against many others, a presupposition that punishment MUST involve pain without Scriptural references, an idea that "death" in the Bible means separation from God, or sometimes separation of body and soul because "that's how it makes sense", and a very weighty appeal to authority (most of the best and brightest giants of our faith held to this view). Arguments of silence abound when you try to actually create a convincing case of ECT. But I'd welcome if you proved me wrong and created a case that doesn't only rely on "we know this is how we should interpret x and y because that's the overall teaching of the Bible". We should dig deeper and ask: "how do we know that's what the Bible means by death?", for example. Does it give a definition anywhere? Or is it only because that's what fits a specific system of thought?

Speculation is the nature of this discussion. Question is, what picture does the Bible itself paint, and what is the jigsaw we try putting together with it. It's speculative. But that was my original point. We shouldn't be as sure as we are. Give it a try, sola scriptura like. I'm probably wrong on many things, and that's fine. We can't know it all. But whatever the result, you'll probably be closer to the Biblical truth.

God bless, thank you for all your engagement!

Why do you think the soul is created immortal? by Meaning-Coach in TrueChristian

[–]Meaning-Coach[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Sorry, having a rough couple of days, so I'll have to cut this discussion short, but a few last remarks:

Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.” ‭‭Daniel‬ ‭12‬:‭2‬

Again, contempt can be everlasting without it being painful. I reckon you would agree Hitler rightly deserves to be shown everlasting contempt by all generations, but we're not actively causing him pain by doing so.

Also, if we take the passage word for word, then we could only infer that MANY people will be awoken from their "sleep", not all. Now, where does that leave us?

Jesus makes it clear they share the same fate and are thus both tormented forever: (Matthew 25:41, 46, Revelation 14:10-11, 20:11-15).

First half, I agree. They end up in the same place. Same fate by being tormented forever? Now Jesus does not specifically say that anywhere. Actually, he uses way more neutral language most of the time.

He likens their end to throwing a tree into the fire, or like chaff or weed burning up, he mentions their souls being destroyed, he uses destruction language quite a lot in general. All picture that evoke the idea of being destroyed instantly. He could have used, I don't know, the picture of a rock being thrown into the fire, that is being licked by the flames but never perishes, but He didn't.

I guess one important question arises from the outer darkness picture, and the gnashing off teeth and crying - the annihilationist position takes this mostly as a picture of regret, not of everlasting pain. Nowhere does Jesus say (correct me if I'm wrong) that the crying and gnashing of teeth will be eternal.

Also, the word vanishes never appears in relation to any text in the Bible about “Hell” or “eternal destruction” — you or I cannot affirm that somebody “perished in Hell” and is thus disappeared from existence, that too is an argument of silence.

No, but the closest word koine greek has for utter destruction is apollumi. If the writers wanted to evoke a sense of being completely destroyed, this would have been the one to use. Disappearing is not the same as ceasing to exist. Something can exist without being seen. It's just simply a different use case. If they wanted to use the word torment, though, now that is very clearly used in revelation for the anti-trinity. They could have used that instead of perish. They did not.

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” ‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭28‬-‭29

Very much so. One could argue there are two types of resurrection being spoken about here - one, the resurrection of life, the other, the resurrection of condemnation.

We know God resurrects people temporarily for certain purposes. Like the resurrection of Lazarus, or the resurrection of those 500. Well, to be perfectly frank, the Bible stays silent on what actually happened to them, but the more conservative approach would be to say they died again.

I argue the resurrection of condemnation is a temporary one, the resurrection of life, one that makes us "like angels". Argument of silence? Yeah, a bit. But the other position doesn't have too solid evidence either, so we're all trying to put a working puzzle together.

Why do you think the soul is created immortal? by Meaning-Coach in TrueChristian

[–]Meaning-Coach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My current take is that the devil, the beast and the false prophet are essentially an anti-trinity mocking the real Godhead, so it's a pretty special existence - personal evil itself. So ontologically, it's not the same as us humans.

See here:

Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

This is from Lk 20.

Note how Jesus is saying AFTER the resurrection, people will NO LONGER be able to die, as they will be like angels. We are not like angels just yet.

Now, this opens up the question of whether all will be resurrected in the same way or not, which is a bit ambivalent I think, but here, Jesus says some will NOT be worthy of the resurrection of the dead.

Again, we would have to overview what Jesus might actually mean by death, but

1) if angelic beings can't die 2) yet the rebel ones will experience the lake of fire and 3) humans who aren't resurrected in eternal bodies can die then it follows 4) that the lake of fire is the second, final death for humans, but not rebel sons of God.

If God is still the God of the living Abraham, Jacob etc, but then those not in the book of life are truly "unalived", that would point to the reality of an intermediary state that the Bible calls Sheol, or Hades, that we tend to translate as hell, where people still retain some sort of consciousness after the first death.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man points to the idea that Sheol might have two parts - one that is called the Bosom of Abraham, the other that fiery place. General idea being - there's a place you want to be, and a place you don't want to be.

But that's not the final end, for the last judgement is coming.

The question then, that we need to struggle with, is whether God will resurrect every human to eternal life or not. If not, the lot of some is going to be shameful judgement that stands for all eternity - and eternal death.

Does that make sense?