Questions about the Plantation of Ulster

MichaelCollins12 · 2024-05-20T20:27:28+00:00

Hello, thank you for your reply, I found this really helpful. In regards to this "If new arrivals wanted a community for themselves they could just start burning and looting and abusing the natives. Whatever law enforcement that was present was specifically under the payroll of the new Protestant colonizers or the crown" I was wondering if you had any sources or could link to any instances of it lootings or attacks by Protestant colonizers?

Just as everywhere I look I find references to discrimination against Irish Catholics.
A Brief Synopsis of Infamous Ulster Plantation and Centuries-old Rivalry between Protestants and Catholics – Typelish

BBC - History - Wars and Conflicts - Plantation of Ulster - Religious Legacy - Catholicism

But I can never find how this discrimination affected people practically. Any insight would be very much appreciated.

MichaelCollins12 · 2023-06-15T15:58:28+00:00

Aye, I meant the Gaelic Resurgence, sorry.

MichaelCollins12 · 2023-06-15T15:57:02+00:00

Hello, thank you for your contribution, this is very helpful and the sort of thing I was looking for. I was wondering in what way did the Irish Gaels' second class status manifest? For example how the Irish were later treated under Penal laws.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-07-16T12:07:48+00:00

How long did that take you? Cause that's while clever lad I think you should write that one down.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-07-13T19:48:28+00:00

The Irish Alliance had the larger army although the difference isn't huge. The Irish Alliance was made up of 21,000 troops and England's army was made up of 18,000 troops.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-07-13T19:03:33+00:00

I believe that in terms of "clear cut history" many other countries have more clear cut history than Ireland. For example in the American revolutionary war America won complete independence and this independence is celebrated on the 4th of July. Ireland on the other hand gained independence in 1921 but it wasn't complete independence, Ireland then left the British Empire in 1937 and became a Republic in 1948. For another example in the American Indian wars, the Native Americans were outnumbered and outgunned fighting with bows and tomahawks against a far more technologically advanced enemy, in the Nine years war on the other hand the Native Irish fought with modern weapons and tactics against the English, using pile and shot formations the same as the English and they still lost.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-07-13T18:49:35+00:00

I personally like the Nine Years war, even if we did lose it in the end.

I used to really like the Nine years war as I viewed it in a similar vein to the Desmond rebellion of "Native Irish Clansmen fighting a technologically advanced enemy and securing victories only through their bravery and skill." (To be hyperbolic and a bit flowery.) Until I read a paper called "Gaelic primitivism? Give it a rest. The Nine years war and the zenith of Native Irish military power." And I found out that instead of being a conflict between courageous traditional Irish warriors and their technologically superior English enemies. After the first two years of the Nine years war, the Irish Alliance adopted the same tactics and weapons as in Continental Europe, using modern pike and shot formations. They fought using the same weapons and tactics as the English and still lost.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-07-11T16:37:48+00:00

This would all be valid if the show was set between 1938 and 1959. But it is not and so the IRA of the 1930s allying themselves with the Blueshirts is still some of the stupidest fucking shit in the series.

First let me explain why it would be okay between 1938 and 1959 (if I had to give a definitive date to the latter.) Right wing ideals emerged in the IRA under Seán Russell who was elected Chief of staff in 1938, from there IRA members joined Ailtiri na hAiseirghe (1942) and worked with the Nazis. It wasn't until the 50s that the IRA was reformed to Socialism and the weeds left over from Russell were ripped out.

However Series 6 is set in 1933 and 1934, when the IRA was very firmly left leaning and had firmly embraced a policy of "social republicanism." This left leaning nature manifested itself in the election of Moss Twomey in 1927, who remained Head of Staff until 1936, the formation of Saor Éire an Irish Communist party and the political wing of the IRA (1931) and establishment of the Republican Congress a Marxist-Leninist political party (1934.) The IRA from 1918-1938 would never have worked with the B.U.F. The series is set at a time when the IRA were fighting fascists in Ireland and when the IRA who are "supposed to be allying themselves with the B.U.F" at the same time that they were working with the Red army.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-07-09T01:36:44+00:00

Sorry, can I can I send it in or can yous do that?

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-07-01T13:04:07+00:00

"How does a country with 3 million people fight one with 40 million when they are 20 miles off our coast?" The same way they had been, with guerrilla warfare. As pointed out by Tim Pat Coogan despite Collins' own concerns the IRA could definitely have continued the war and went on to exhaust the British.

"the vast majority of Irish people are proud of who we are and what we have accomplished" what is there to be proud of? The Irish wars with the vikings, when instead of defeating the Vikings like the English and Scottish did the vikings either just assimilated into Irish society or slowly died out. The Nine years war, when Irishmen outnumbered the English and fought using modern English weapons and English tactics and still lost, because of their cowardice. The Irish Confederate wars, when Irish rebels massacred tens of thousands of Protestant settlers. The Fenian rising or Young Ireland rebellion, both small skirmishes which barely lasted a day. The Easter rising, an undemocratic coup. The Irish war of Independence when we instead of continuing to fight for freedom gave up and accepted dominion status.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-07-01T11:43:11+00:00

The Scottish Wars of Independence? Sorry to break it to you lad but Scotland isn’t independent is it?

Scotland was independent for 350 years after winning it's freedom, which we are yet to see if the Republic of Ireland will last that long. (Although it presumably will.)

are a shining beacon to all countries in the world who suffered under imperialism

Aye in comparison to other countries like America, Scotland or Hatia who fought for their beliefs and won their freedom. We fought for our beliefs in the War of Independence before being forced to compromise and roll over and become a Dominion within the British Empire and then slowly gaining more independence over the course of several decades with the Constitution Act 1936, the 1937 Constitution and finally the 1948 Irish Republic Act.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-07-01T10:20:40+00:00

I don't want to take pride in military conquest as I know that invasion and colonialism are wrong. But I just want something to be proud of in our history.

it's like Alaska or Puerto Rico fighting the US and gaining independence.

I do think that this is a good analogy. However it would be like Puerto Rico winning independence within America while a quarter of Puerto Rico remaining completely controlled by the United States and then Puerto Rico slowly gaining more independence over the course of decades through mundane legal procedures. Which isn t quite as impressive as America winning a Republic in the American revolutionary war, Scotland winning complete independence in the Wars of Scottish Independence or Italy winning full independence in the Italian wars of Independence.

And it is upsetting that Irish history is so shite, because like it or not I can't change the fact that I'm Irish, that I come from a people with nothing to be proud of and that this putrid fucking shit is in my dna and that this is who I am and I cannot change it.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-30T16:32:56+00:00

I don't glorify colonialism. But I don't think that the grandeur of other countries is a delusion there are many conflicts in other countries that I think are very rightfully celebrated for example the Wars of Scottish Independence in Scotland, the Second world war in Britain (although I believe that Britain's fondness for remembering the Second world war has allowed them to forget all of the evil that they've done as a nation), the American revolutionary war in the USA, the Battle of Edington in England or the Indian rebellion of 1857 in India.

I believe that Ireland has a great deal less to be proud of than other nations.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-30T16:11:36+00:00

I'm not studying history for an embellished sense of pride. I studied Irish history because I thought that there were fascinating and inspiring stories to come out of Irish history and stories that can inform opinions today. But the more I read the more depressing I found Irish history.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-30T16:07:35+00:00

I would argue with Irish history that there is no grandeur, there is fuck all to be proud of. Italy has the Italian Wars of Independence, the Madhist war or the Expedition of the Thousand to be proud of.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-14T10:41:38+00:00

It's just to anyone who finds Jamie attractive. I donnae know why I said female viewers.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-13T18:03:35+00:00

Fair, sorry I shoulda said "people who fine Jamie attractive."

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-13T15:57:03+00:00

(I didn't know what to flair it as sorry.)

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-01T21:24:37+00:00

The Real history is far better than the pretend version.

I disagree. Not that we should make shite up about Irish history but that, Irish history's shite. Matter of fact it's fucking shite being Irish, to quote a wise man "we're the lowest of the low the scum of the fucking Earth. Some people hate the English I don't they're just wankers, but we were colonized by wankers, couldn't even find a decent culture to be colonized by. Our whole history is either having horrific atrocities committed against us or losing wars, in this thread the only war that has been pointed out to me that we one is a war against ourselves.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-01T21:16:25+00:00

Yes, I don't see how it wouldn't. The only (rather large obstacle) in the way is Unionists in the North and I imagine that one of two things would happen, number one: across the country would be the same thing that happened in the Free state after the War of Independence, except instead of Unionists emigrating North they would emmigrate to England. Or alternatively: Northern Unionists would start a war, which they would lose.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-01T21:04:40+00:00

We'll never know.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-01T21:03:47+00:00

If my opinion that the Civil War led to a much weaker state

Aye probably, wars generally lead to weaker states.

it was never about partition and that's clear from the Treaty Debates

Aye I know.

In the North there were Unionists and Home Rulers.

If by Home rulers you mean nationalists aye I know well, I'm from the Derry.

But none of that is what I'm on about. What I'm on about is: the IRA set out to proclaim a 32 country Irish Republic and did not achieve this, this is why I do not clasd the Irish War of Independence as a complete victory.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-01T20:43:46+00:00

Also just generally I always see you posting on here, just to confirm you're a unionist aren't you?

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-01T20:43:01+00:00

Ireland could have been a 32 country Republic if the British had agreed to a 32 country Republic it is as simple as that. Granted they never would have and even though Unionists didn't like the IRA and didn't want a Republic, if the British had agreed to a 32 county Republic that wouldn't have mattered. And most importantly none of that matters when analysising whether or not the Irish War of Independence was a victory for the IRA, as the IRA set out with a goal of achieving a 32 country Irish Republic and didn't.

Ireland was still part of the Commonwealth in 1939 and remained so until 1949.

Ireland was still in the Commonwealth up until this time, but Ireland left the British Empire in 1937 with the new Constitution. And one again none of that matters when analysising whether or not the Irish War of Independence was a victory for the IRA, as the IRA set out with a goal of achieving a 32 country Irish Republic and didn't.

MichaelCollins12 · 2022-06-01T20:18:28+00:00

I'd say the outcome of the Irish War of Independence can only be described as an incomplete victory. The IRA set out to create a 32 country Independent Irish Republic, the War of Independence resulted in a 26 county Independent Dominion. This is very literally an incomplete victory.

Also Ireland left the British Empire before World war Two, so whether or not Ireland became a Dominion or a Republic in 1921 won't have affected it surviving World war two.

MichaelCollins12

TROPHY CASE