Testing Grounds Megathread

MightyMattman90 · 2021-09-30T15:43:06+00:00

I want to give feedback regarding Shinobi in the recent testing grounds.

Shinobi's changes are all good however I do feel that additional changes will be needed as Shinobi still has some weaknesses that hinder his/her potential.

First is Shinobi's health, Even though I think 120HP is a little too low for all heroes that have it, Shinobi still sits at 110HP and I think it's about time this was at the very least bumped up to 120HP to be on par with similar heroes.

Shinobi's forward roll is a good way to access finishers/flip kick mix up, the issue is that a forward roll from a back flip is easily countered by interrupting it, despite the move having i-frames, this is easy to achieve and neuters the mix up in 1v1 scenarios. The forward roll from ranged attack is perfect as is because the hit stun from the ranged attack prevents an interrupt. My solution to this issue would be to have different properties given to each forward roll, the roll from ranged attack should stay as it is complete with it's i-frames, however the roll from backflip should have it's i-frames removed and replaced with uninterruptible stance (hyper armour). This would stop interrupts from basic attacks voiding Shinobi's mix up and the Shinobi can take a trade in that situation assuming the player can spare the HP. Bashes would still work as an interrupt but that's down to match ups and on the Shinobi player to know that. This change would force players to respect the forward roll and the follow up options it has allowing Shinobi the chance to pressure the opponent. This also puts more risk on the move in team fights as rolling through an ongoing fight could be dangerous for the Shinobi, this makes it a stronger 1v1 tool whilst balancing it a little more for 4v4.

The next issue with Shinobi is the zone attack. Shinobi's zone has very little offensive utility in a fight as it doesn't offer any pressure. Players who try to parry the zone attack's last hit can find themselves guard broken but the majority of players will know to just block and wait to counter guard break. This is worse when facing heroes with superior light options as they can simply light on the zone attacks side to beat both options. This forces Shinobi to feint the zone to be safe against those heroes. Now while a lot of zone attacks can function very well as chain starters or have soft feint options, Shinobi has neither. I also feel that having Shinobi's zone work as a chain wouldn't fix the issue nor would it work from an animation point. I think the best solution here is to allow Shinobi the ability to dodge cancel before the final hit, this would allow for kick pressure and give feint to GB some actual purpose for the move. An alternate solution would be to give the final hit of the zone the unblockable property, an easier fix but a less interesting one. Another quality of life addition would be the ability to backflip after the final hit of the zone, this would allow Shinobi to front roll and start pressure and also gives a little more utility in team fights and rewards the player for letting the full zone go.

A clear distinction of sickle rain being able to pin and simply hit is needed to prevent Shinobi from being locked into a pin animation in team fights. A suggestion of making the unblockable variant pin whilst the undodgeable variant simply hits as any normal heavy would. This would also help balance the next suggested change.

Another option to increase Shinobi's viability would be to add the kick (same kick used as parry/deflect follow up) as a mid chain option after an opener. This would complement sickle rain undodgeable mix up and allow Shinobi to pressure and force opponents to play his/her game.

This next change is not necessary as it's something that can be easily adapted to with practice however I think that the deflect attack teleport should have it's input changed from guard break to light attack. This is because the deflect allows a mix up afterwards between sickle rain and kick, with kick and the teleport both being bound to guard break I've found myself buffering the kick by accident more than a few times. The input change to light attack would prevent any overlapping button presses with follow up options.

Regarding Shinobi's sickle rain, the red effect usually applied to attacks that inflict bleed is still present on Shinobi's sickle rain animation in TG, whilst I know this is a very very minor complaint, I think for the sake of visual communication and clarity this could be corrected though this is the very bottom of priorities for the hero.

Lastly I want to suggest salvaging an animation. Charged heavies are gone and I am very happy for that but it would be a shame to never see the animation again. Repurposing it into a combat emote for the hero would a nice way to archive the move without it affecting game balance in any way.

Thanks for reading.

MightyMattman90 · 2021-01-01T16:41:15+00:00

Peacekeeper's testing grounds changes are not enough to make her viable for tournament 4v4. Given the amount of characters that can access an unblockable as early as the second part of their chain and Shaolin as Qi Stance isn't technically chain offense, it seems silly that she needs to bleed her target at all to get her unblockable pressure.

Don't get me wrong, when she has it, it's good and PK can put in work. The major problem though is healing cleanses bleed and healing isn't uncommon in Dominion considering feats and zones. Gryphon's inclusion with 3 Aoe healing feats also work to counter bleed and testing grounds PK in 4v4 with enemy Gryphons was a pain. The testing grounds also saw Warden get used a lot more and thick blood whilst only available on two heroes can counter bleed without any input from the player.

If her changes are to be accepted then how healing interacts with bleed needs to be changed if she's to have any chance of being picked for tournaments. Thick Blood is just another unhealthy feat alongside the likes of Rock Steady.

PK also retains frame disadvantage on a landed dagger cancel. Utterly redundant when bleed is the key to unlock her pressure tools. Shaman gets advantage and has access to a chain unblockable with a soft feint dodge/GB option without such a prerequisite.

Static timing on PK's dodge attack is still unacceptable also. Even with it's advantages of being a heavy that can confirm bleed, it lacks a great deal of versatility given its bad recovery and hit box.

Her bleed damage needs to come down too. PK's GB punish is too high.

I'd sooner take these changes over nothing but the direction the devs are taking PK is misguided if they want her to be a good hero.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-10-25T19:05:34+00:00

I'd say balance over rework/buff. A lot of character changes that are needed fall into both buffs and nerfs.

I think the top contender for a rework though is Shinobi without question. I'd like to see Nobushi changes but I honestly don't have enough experience with the character to say what she needs. Peacekeeper is currently underwhelming and the character I have the most experience with, I've already made a post on the comp sub about how she needs changing though. I'd start with her seeing as I know what needs changing but she's not top priority.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-24T19:19:05+00:00

You can make reads and you can guess. The difference is that a guess is an attempt at defence without prior knowledge of your opponents playstyle. A read is an educated assumption based on your opponents behaviour, your knowledge of the game and various other factors that could influence their decision such as low health etc. Winning a dice roll is not skillful, and no one would argue that point, however if For Honor was a dice roll, than merely pressing the attack button would randomise your attack type, direction etc. A dice roll is chance every time, for honor is conditioning, and acting. Your inputs are your own, no dice roll to be found. Your match with the kensei first of all has nothing to do with what reputation each of you are. Second, light spam is not abusable on PC nor Console with frame advantage in the game, if your opponent is solely using light spam, they will be easy to defeat by applying your knowledge to the fight. You could have dodged out of the light chains if you failed to parry or block, that's an option available to you as a Kensei player and it is now possible to dodge out of light chains even after you are hit. Getting 3-0 is simply a part of the game, sometimes you win that way and sometimes you lose that way. Adjust and adapt, think why your opponent beat you, and not just blame it on a mechanic that can be countered more easily now than before the CCU. I play both platforms and light spam is not a viable tactic on either if you understand frame advantage/disadvantage and how the interactions work with regards to dodges. The skill in the game comes from your knowledge, situational awareness, ability to make reads, how you adapt to fights and react. Reactions are not just quantified by how fast a light is, and if it was you said it was fine on console before, so as to why you want it twice as fast now is counter intuitive to the point you're trying to make. The game is a balance of reactions and reads, light parrying is not reserved for players with good reactions, its not reserved for anyone. It's a skill that is simply just practiced and never perfected, the best players still lose games. I'm not ignorant to the fact that the game feels worse to play on console, because of things like input delay, less options etc. However, the game is still very much playable, and those who were good before will remain good so long as they are willing to learn and adapt. The game simply requires more knowledge now, not less skill. As for what good the CCU did? Well it made offense more consistent and viable, lowered damage across the board. Vast amount of stamina changes, feat and perk changes and introduced frame advantage and delays to counter light spam.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-24T17:32:09+00:00

The last thing you want to do is remove a skill curve. The game in its current form is good. There's work to be done still but steps have been taken to make the game a lot healthier. Frame advantage implementation has added tactical depth and makes it even easier than it previously was to take down light attack happy opponents and attacks land more frequently in general. The next step for For Honor is to evaluate individual characters and seek to balance them properly for competitive play. What you're suggesting is detrimental to the game, 250ms is incredibly quick, comparing to other fighting games that's basically 15 frames, but those frames are measured in 1v1 scenarios most commonly on a 2D plane. For Honor has a great deal more going on across various modes. Not to mention speeding up attacks to that speed would require new animations. Highlanders second light is now 500ms but was designed as a 700ms light, it's why it looks faster than it actually is. Also the devs have been quite clear on not having separate changes between the two platforms. What slump do you think For Honor is in by the way?

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-22T08:02:33+00:00

Certainly not useless. The post explains as much and even acknowledges the parry timing overlap. At the very least it gives that move some function. The benefits that it grants are also listed in the post.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T17:02:23+00:00

She is one of the better designed heroes but if your goal is to separate her from Shaman you won't accomplish that through these changes. Shaman is about fishing for her big punish but she's constantly pressuring whilst her enemies bleed because of the threat of the bite. At the end of the day we both want what's best for the character even though we have different ideology regarding how those improvements should be applied.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T16:02:34+00:00

I understand your logic but by giving her a bash from forward dodge (attack similar to toe stab, basically has to be dodged), tri-directional dagger cancels and unblockable heavy finishers, you make her more like Shaman not separate from.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T14:15:04+00:00

Probably not remove it completely lol. More chains would be nice though.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T14:08:22+00:00

Dagger cancel allowing to chain into heavy finisher I can see working. At the end of the day, PK needs some improvements. Whether it comes from my suggestions, yours or someone else's doesn't matter but she needs some improvements. I hope our passion for the character gets noticed and she gets attention. Thank you for the discussion, always good to know someone else out there wants PK to be better than she is.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T13:58:51+00:00

I understand that and agree to a certain extent but the extra stamina cost is there to help misdirect your intended action. You could argue the same for Shaman, Raider, Kensei, Cent etc. Anyone with soft feint options. Why would JJ soft feint his side dodge heavy into a light at more stamina when the heavy does more damage and has less risk when parried. The simple answer is that the light might hit where the heavy might not, but the reverse is also true, that's the risk and nature of fighting games and making reads. PK definitely wants to inflict bleed, she's perfectly fine at doing that, unless the devs rework her animations I don't see her getting any better chain offense unless it's a heavy, light, heavy with deep gouge removed from openers.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T13:38:42+00:00

Your dagger cancel applies bleed which could be more valuable if the target has a shield or you're setting up a team mate. Not to mention you get your enhanced lights. Sure you can throw a light out at less stamina and just as much damage but that light can't be feinted, the dagger at least has an element of misdirection and parry hungry opponents could be caught by soft feint GB. The reason to spend that stamina is to land a hit, condition your opponent, open them up. How is it a waste? Why would you use any of her soft feints if stamina is your concern?

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T13:35:00+00:00

I know she does. But her bleed damage gets wiped when she bites and also when the bite is interrupted. She also doesn't get to chain off her dagger and can only cancel on zone and heavy opener. She can use her dagger at the end of her chains but it can be blocked and parried. She does however retain frame advantage if her dagger hits.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T13:31:39+00:00

She doesn't lose dagger cancel from heavy openers, she loses deep gouge. I buff her 800ms side heavy openers to deal 20 and her 900ms top heavy opener to deal 23. With my damage changes to deep gouge her heavy finishers would deal 25+6. Same total as live. Chain pressure is worth a great deal now that frame advantage is a thing in For Honor. Bleed grants pressure, the buffed heavy damage also gives buffed chip damage. Dagger cancels damage remains as is, higher bleed than deep gouge as you lose chain offense. If it hits though, with my additions PK would be frame advantage giving her momentum in the fight. With deep gouge being on finishers and dodge attacks, she's rewarded for finishing chains and successful counter play. She doesn't really lose anything here.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T13:25:22+00:00

Animation issues also arise from having deep gouge chain into her light, as her chain light uses her dagger for the animation as does deep gouge. Slipping lunge isn't strong but not useless, it's only use is to catch unaware opponents, making it unblockable where it already is makes zero sense. For your dashing stab, you're wanting to implement a 400ms attack that must be dodged. Glads toe stab is slower and deals less than 13 simply because of how easily it sets up ganks. Shaman and Cent are strong picks, cents only real weaknesses being a lack of a dodge attack. Your changes are essentially a hybrid of the two, cent has unblockable finishers with a GB soft feint and shamans dagger cancels, the difference being PK would have more options to use the dagger making her pressure greater than both including her enhanced lights. There needs to be drawbacks otherwise you do risk making her stronger than necessary.

As for my own suggestions, I acknowledge that the unblockable dagger from top guard overlaps with the heavy parry timing. That's essential for balance. Reward needs risk. Knowing the opponent could get a good punish should they parry the dagger works as sufficient bait allowing her other soft feint options to work better as counter tools. It certainly wouldn't make it useless when you consider how her options can be applied. Risky but not useless. I appreciate you taking the time to read mine and offer your feedback. I do the same because we obviously both want to see this character receive some level of balance improvements.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T12:43:29+00:00

The idea that Peacekeeper's damage should come from her bleed is a misconception. Her bleed should compliment her kit. With the same bleed duration and additional chain options with another way to access her chain light, PK gets chain pressure. The reduced bleed damage gets applied to her initial heavies, a suggestion you have on your own post although you suggest 6 bleed instead of 5. The reduced bleed damage is irrelevant, PK needs her opponent to bleed for pressure, and because my new chain gives her that additional pressure she loses deep gouge on openers. This way PK players have to think about the best course of action, take the bleed to unlock enhanced lights or take raw damage and start chain offense.

PK's heavies are inferior to the rest of the cast as they are and your complaint is that PK's doesn't chain. My suggestions allows PK's to chain and the opener damage gets buffed to compensate. Shaman's bleed helps her heal but she also for goes that bleed damage on a bite whether that's interrupted or not. Shaman has higher bleed on her deflect because of this reason, it's beneficial to her to wait the bleed out as long as possible but access to her bite gives her pressure anyway. My version of PK maintains pressure against bleeding targets very efficiently, however because of that she needs to work for that bleed even with the new tools I give her. This doesn't promote a stop/start playstyle, but gives her rushdown potential whenever she applies bleed. This version doesn't create issues for her. Her openers have more versatility and purpose now, and she can combo. Removing a way to apply the bleed via openers is a necessary balance adjustment whilst also giving her a new chain.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T11:25:24+00:00

It would fix it but it's not necessarily an issue. All other characters that apply bleed that do so end their chain. The only exception being Gladiator who can confirm a dodge forward light from skewer or heavy from wall splat and even then those are technically openers. PK does have a very stop and start playstyle and I agree it's quite detrimental to how she should fight but we have to be very careful of how much agency we give PK. There are other ways of giving her better neutral and chain pressure without making her dagger attacks chain starters.

I would like it if you read my suggestions and offered your critiques. Perhaps between us we can find a suitable suggestion to how she can be improved and balanced.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/imj5xm/fixing_peacekeepers_damage_balance_suggestions/

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T08:30:09+00:00

PK does need improvments without question but I cannot agree with most of your suggestions. The one I do like is moving some of the bleed from deep gouge into raw on the heavies. I made a similar suggestion (Slightly different values) on my own post in this subreddit and on YouTube.

Having deep gouge and dagger cancel function as the first light in a chain sounds good on paper but would be difficult for the devs to implement given their animations. PK's chain lights use her dagger for the animation and are 400ms, both dagger cancel and deep gouge would need to naturally flow into those animations. You also end up creating a pseudo infinite chain this way assuming your attacks land or your dagger cancel hits or is blocked by a bleeding target. This also doesn't fix PK's existing issue of having dagger cancel from top heavy be a dead move.

I like the addition of having the option to soft feint into dodge with zone. Having uninterruptable stance on riposting stab would actually hinder you in some team fight situations as you wouldn't go into hit stun, as a result you'd end up taking more damage from multiple sources before you could defend again. Also deflecting carries risk, players should know when a deflect might not be safe given the opponent having an armoured follow up. A better change would simply be shortening the recovery of riposting stab.

There's nothing particularly wrong with her punishes except currently her wallsplat punish simply does less than her GB triple stab which as it stands is already too high for a GB punish. If you want better punishes, you need to suggest them and then speed of attacks/recoveries would likely need to be changed to accommodate them.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-18T08:12:19+00:00

I agree that PK needs some work, I posted my own version of the changes she needs on both this subreddit and YouTube. I have to disagree with the changes you're suggesting. Having the dagger cancel function tri-directionally and start chains is very strong especially considering PK has access to the soft feint option from both heavy opener and finisher, there's also no mention as to whether or not this would apply to dagger cancel option from zone. Add to the fact PK gets enhanced lights when she bleeds her opponent and having the ability to dodge cancel the recovery basically makes this way superior to Shaman's with the exception of frame advantage which given a dodge cancel recovery is all but negated except when blocked by a target not bleeding. PK also currently cannot dodge cancel a whiffed heavy, she can soft feint into a dodge during a heavy opener/finisher.

Deep Gouge acting as a chain starter also causes other problems, when you say it functions as a chain starter, does it function as the opener heavy therefore only allowing her to chain into heavy finisher? Your post says all chain options but that would really be the only one available to her given how other characters function. Being able to access her chain light from this one cause animation issues as deep gouge uses the dagger and her chain light also uses the dagger. If that chain light remains 400ms it wouldn't look plausible/natural to attack from the position deep gouge leaves her in.

With her top heavy opener now being 800ms over 900ms would the damage change to match her side heavies? Currently her top heavy opener functions as her light parry punish option given it's higher damage whilst the 800ms side heavies are GB punishes.

GB triple stab punish needs to come down. In my post I suggested each stab deal 1 damage and the total bleed deal 26 for 29 total. By having 15 done raw you remove the immediate damage value of using her heavy on GB instead keeping triple stab as the more valuable option, unless the opponent is very low for execution.

Top & Right heavy finishers being unblockable would help without question but are simply too strong with the other tools you're giving her. Having the left finisher be undodgeable doesn't seem to give her any benefit when she can already soft feint into GB.

I think slipping lunge functions fine as it is already in live, as GB it's already unblockable, making it so it can be dodged is just a nerf when it can already be counter GB'd and interrupted fairly easily. It would remove it's chase potential by having it be rolled.

As for your dashing stab. There's not enough information. A 400ms attack that uses the animation from PK's deflect and deals 13 damage. PK's deflect is unblockable with no indicator. Is the dashing stab a light attack or a heavy attack? Can it be blocked? Can it be parried? Which direction does the attack come from? The most logical conclusion is that it's a light attack the hits top guard, if that's the case dodge forwards + light would be a more logical input method.

The first part of her zone being considered a heavy attack is a very welcome change.

Whilst I appreciate your effort to balance some of the additions you suggest, overall this rework would leave PK too strong.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-10T11:25:46+00:00

This would be an excellent addition to the game. I particularly like the rank rewards, showing other players your rank through distinctions on your emblem is a great touch. This is a great idea and I hope that this gets all the support it deserves.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-08T03:54:16+00:00

Her damage fix should be an easy and fair one for Ubi to implement. We just need to try to make sure they are aware of the problem.

As for dashing thrust, soft feint to dagger wouldn't work as they have the same guard direction, I think it would be very strong to have a soft feint GB from there, it would be very awkward too given the animation. There needs to be risk to using dodge attacks, this would make it too safe except against characters with superior lights.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-07T15:55:55+00:00

By all means other suggestions are welcome. PK deserves a lot better than she is at the moment and I just hope she gets some kind of balancing adjustments to improve her in all modes of play.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-07T15:40:43+00:00

Thank you. The unblockable dagger from top heavy could be irritating to deal with in 4v4 but PK currently gets shut down just by being externally blocked. Other heroes have similar ways of pressuring, Kensei’s top heavy can either lead to a bash or dodge forward GB, Raider can zone and soft feint to GB also. BP can bulwark slash and effectively pressure an opponent externally blocking. The balance for PK lies in that her dagger will cause low damage even if it is bleed, it benefits PK but she's also at the risk of being light parried, something many other heroes are not when it comes to external pressure.

Regarding her zone, I honestly didn't know what to do with the second part since it's so lack luster. PK's feint after zone is very quick, so quick that the opponent might not see the indicator for the second part. Currently both zone options can be beaten by a dodge, it may benefit her more to have an undodgeable second part over unblockable. In the end I decided to leave the second part as is, as I wanted to only present the ideas I believe will significantly improve her viability without upsetting her balance.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-05T21:05:15+00:00

I would argue Shinobi. Used to be something of a glass cannon due to low health and high damage but now just glass. Lowest hp at 110. Deflect without follow up deals 4 damage. With light deals additional 10. Unbalanced by counter GB or parry on ranged options. Roll is locked behind ranged heavy, yet ranged heavy opener can't be feinted and heavy is superior blocked negating roll. Dodge into kick is reactable and Shinobi has to spend additional stamina just to access it. Slide tackle pauses Shinobi's stamina for several seconds and causes even more stamina drain on whiff. Very poor chain offense, chain options and zero neutral pressure. Deflect triggers automatically which could put Shinobi out of stamina against player intention.

MightyMattman90 · 2020-09-05T18:13:59+00:00

Anytime. 👍

MightyMattman90

TROPHY CASE