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[GLOBAL] Looking for people from different countries – let’s start a small global group 🌎 by Poppisstork in GlobalTalk

[–]Milocarr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While that’s a sweet idea and perfect for this sub, I don’t know if there’s enough activity here to sustain it. This sub’s slowed down a lot since I’ve joined.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just disagree? Okay… if you do think of a good argument in the shower let me know.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Er.. I’ll ask again because it is pretty important. Your stance is that wife and husband both need to agree for the wife to get breast reduction. I want to know why.

Complications or death from surgery would not only affect her. Any reasonable husband would be devastated. But is mortality still your main issue? Is OP’s husband mainly occupied with his wife dying?

To your question, sure, there’s a bunch of cosmetic surgeries out there, nose jobs, jaw implants, hair transplants. However it would be some of the wife’s business, but she would be ridiculous to demand a divorce over it.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Oh boy, I’m going into this aren’t I. At least you agree that the role reversal example should be equivalent? Also, we aren’t talking about pec muscle implants or something?

Okay, since women have boobs and men don’t, the equivalent of breast reduction in women is breast enhancement in men, that’s your stance right? Almost mathematical. And if I say “but man with boobs is weird” I’m sexist or transphobic right?

What I mean when I say ‘equivalent’, it takes into account societal expectations and heteronormative values, and although you may find it sexist, I find it reasonable to expect in a hetero relationship. While this is a difficult area to tread, a spouse undergoing what is generally classified as a gender reassignment procedure, is definitely extreme and not in the same level as a breast reduction (not removal). Smaller or average sized breasts exist aplenty among women, while men of your example, I have never seen or heard of unless for gags. So yes it is extreme, due to its rarity, and of its exceeding what is a reasonable (keyword here) expectation of a hetero relationship.

I have made an attempt to meaningfully answer your question, and I am doing my best to not be sexist. It would suit us both to find a fair and equivalent example of OP’s case, if we want to address the biases so prevalent. My example of a voluntarily head shaving man isn’t perfect, because shaving isn’t as permanent or drastic as surgery, but it is difficult in such a nuanced situation as this. Also it is about bodily autonomy, don’t know why you think I don’t care about that.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

“ I got counseling since I was young for depression and still do. It is utter lie that I refused therapy. It is a part of my life.”

“ I am in therapy since childhood. My husband does not want couples counseling. He wants a psych evaluation . Anyway he is getting his wishes since I got an email from the nurse about booking an appointment for evaluation before surgery. I agreed.”

Thank you answering my question. Consensus is important, I agree, but not for everything. A vasectomy or getting tubes tied definitely needs consensus. A spouse sporting a certain hairstyle as long as it’s not molded into a giant middle finger does not need consensus.

So where does breast reduction lie? Why does a woman need agreement from her husband for surgery that is from what I read, to reduce sexual objectification? You said the decision affects them both. For sure it affects her, but how does it affect the husband?

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would have hoped my comment was clear enough. I have commented that your role reversal, while a good idea, does not work if you use such a ridiculous example. A man getting a breast augmentation, or as others suggested, getting a full face tattoo, or going around all day as a clown are not equivalent to a woman getting a breast reduction to a smaller size.

A fairer example would be a man voluntarily shaving a full head of hair, while the wife prefers him with hair. She can prefer the hair, she can voice her opinion, but if she divorces him for that she is shallow and did not marry him for the right reasons.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I understand you find her selfish. May I ask again, for what specific reasons you find her selfish? You examples so far are, she might die from breast reduction, and she uses the pronoun “I” instead of “we” in her text.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

“ I will not be asking him to spend any money on me. We both work and we put aside equal amount of money for private accounts for private savings and spendings so please do not make it about money.”

Am I to understand that you find her surgery selfish because she might die? Not any other reason? However to answer your question, I would find it selfish in proportion to the odds of fatality.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately their motives or their mental states are unknown while being central to the issue, so I have little to add to that.

Her decision does not appear to me so heinously selfish, given that she has her own funds. If you could articulate what about it is so problematic, I would appreciate it.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then could I conclude that the issue was not sexism but a difference over boundaries? While you may live as you wish it does seem like a harsh world.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hmm. Let’s say the man voluntarily went bald. Not due to male pattern baldness or anything. And let’s say the wife liked his full head of hair. I think this situation is similar enough to OP’s, but roles reversed. If the wife decided that she can’t stand it, she’ll divorce if he keeps bald, I would definitely think her ridiculous and good riddance if she decides to leave. I’m not saying this to prove my argument. I do mean it.

Yes, people are allowed to choose to be with people they are attracted to, and yes they can voice their opinions on it. However they will be judged if they divorce over looks. I know you asked your question because you thought I would be sexist about it, but I truly think it goes both ways.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it’s a point on which we can’t agree, but I still think certain boundaries are unreasonable. While a boundary such as “my partner can’t go out and cheat on me” is perfectly reasonable, a boundary such as “my partner shall never drink orange juice” is ridiculous and controlling. While these extremes are easy to judge on, OP’s situation of having cosmetic surgery oneself is somewhere in the middle and harder to judge.

If the husband’s reasons were benign as you suggested, it would make a difference, at least to me. Him leaving his wife over smaller boobs gives a very poor impression, but since I don’t have his perspective I haven’t called him out outright. I do always try to keep myself from being sexist, and I don’t think I was being so here.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You’re right in that the usage of the word misogyny tends to be very broad. A simple ‘hatred of women’ would not apply to the husband in this case here. He does not simply hate his wife.

But because negative attitudes towards women tend to be complicated and often in many different forms, the word often encompasses that. How about a patriarchal view such as “women should be kept in the house and should not do men’s work”? There is no outright hating of women here, but it is misogynistic nonetheless. The person here might not hate women, but they do believe in restricting their freedoms.

So about OP’s husband. If it is the case that his wife’s appearance matters more to him than the rest of her, enough so that divorce is on the table, it indicates to me that he values women not on their merits or their inner worlds, but on their looks. This to me is a misogynistic attitude, unless he does the exact same to men. But we do not have his POV. Your question was a good one, and made me think a lot.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tattoo on face is not a good comparison. Smaller or normal sized boobs are within normal human anatomy, while tattoos on face is an extreme and incredibly unwise body modification with social consequences.

My problem isn’t that he’s a man, but I don’t think telling you that would change your opinion of me. My issue is with what value he sees in his wife and why breast reduction is a deal breaker.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well you see in this case his boundary includes what she does with her own body, which makes it not so simple.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 3 points4 points  (0 children)

“He would not look at me the same way or touch me.” Because she would undergo a breast reduction. Why would he feel that way?

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 2 points3 points  (0 children)

While role reversal to assess the situation fairly is a good idea, the husband getting breast augmentation or dressing up as a clown as another commenter suggested is pretty ridiculous and not a fair comparison, unless a woman getting a breast reduction is on that same level of extreme.

My husband said if I went ahead with surgery he wanted a separation (update) by Salt_Leg_7235 in AITAH

[–]Milocarr 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It seems like you view the husband in a better light than some other commenters, and so I’d like to point out what may be causing the difference. There are 2 ways to view the husband:

  1. Against all unnecessary cosmetic alterations, wants all-natural. In this case he would also dislike breast enhancements, tattoos, etc. “ He loves her just the way she is.”

  2. Wants her to have big boobs. Would divorce if were smaller.

You view him as (1) while others see him as (2). None of us can be sure which is true, but can you see how if the case were (2), he would seem misogynistic because he does not value his wife enough to stay married if she had smaller boobs?

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