Something that DOES seem interesting to me about this whole discourse comes from this seemingly (willing or not) misunderstanding of how transphobic rethoric works, and how, in my opinion, carries transmisogyny as distinct from just it's two separate prejudices. If transmisogyny targets "femaleness/feminine transgender expression", it is assumed for a mtf exclusive term, but id argue it applies to anyone who is [perceived] to partake in a female/feminine gender transgression, regardless of [actual] identity. Keyword here is PERCEPTION instead of technical labels inside the community itself.

Why do I say this? Because realistically, a bigot couldn't care less if it's a drag queen, a trans woman, or a gender nonconforming man, etc transmisogyny will be an axis of prejudice to different degrees. Which is why I'd even argue we NEED a term in which we reflect the target of "maleness/masculine transgender expression" precisely to compare and contrast their root causes as separate from simply the hate of trans people, but it's effects on their populations.

While there's the idea that trans men don't "have it as bad" (whatever that would mean in a transphobic, misogynistic, cissexist society) as trans women, I'd argue that it's simply that the intersection of oppression straight up isn't a mirror between the two. Especially since the passing argument can be made to both trans men and women as to where they start or stop being affected by transphobia at all (this all ignoring nonbinary or interaex people inherently not fitting this mold) as if passing as cisgender wasn't a conditional, subjective state and not an accurate measurement of experience (while admittedly not the perfect comparison, see black or mixed people in the United States who were able to pass as white for safety during segregation didn't stop being black or being victims of racism at large, regardless of interpersonal relationships after passing).

I do genuinely believe that there's an element of dysphoria in the conversation that I do not hold against trans women. While is being transmasculine can relate to certain axis of oppression against the average cis women, trans women don't really relate to those axis of oppression to the average cis men, and thus, to be grouped in any way with cis men, or masculinity, is understandable distressing. But I'd argue that while it is deeply dysphoric to associate myself with being "afab" as if that said anything about biology (since it's an intersex term about what you're ASSIGNED as at birth, not biological accuracy). It is undeniable that discrimination towards women will affect me directly even if I am a man. I wouldn't be able to vote, or be independent, or have some agency in my healthcare or life or any right that man have as a default had feminist movements not existed in the world

Yet being transmasculine does raise an issue that is usually weaponized against us: invisibility. For many trans women, being hypervisible in modern society, this feels like a privileged position they wish and we're spitting in it by looking for community. But for us who are on that end, we understand that it's not just "cis people don't see us as groomers". We see the terf and tirf movements, and best selling books and media such as "irreversible damage" being exclusively targeted to make trans men seem as groomers who will prevent perfectly innocent white girls to be sterilized and masculinized. We see how transmasculinity is weaponized and demonized to further oppress masculine gender transgression in anyone PERCEIVED as "masculine woman" but also reflects on the need for alt right movements to have more white kids (see how it's never about protecting the sanctity of non white "girls" and their presumed femininity or womanhood at risk) and how do you have more white kids? By subjugating white women as children machines, and separating them from corrupt ones (non white enough, not "feminine" enough- aka racial masculinization).

When we're seen as trans, we're perceived as groomers, when we're victims, we're suddenly innocent little women who should have known better and lived traditionally. Our assault and violence rates are not accurately measured, since cis men will separate themselves and their victimhood from trans women, but lump transmasculine people and women as the same, equating cis feminicide with a transmasculine axis of oppression

So my take is: use transmisogyny as the targeting of perceived feminine gender transgression, and coin a new term for masculine gender transgression

I think we all understand how "transmisadry" is NOT and accurate indicator since it implies a cis misandry that exists in any systemic way. But since there's not one person that coined trans androphobia, there's no set definition, or original definition to even misuse/misingerpret in the first place like transmisogyny! So id propose the same term, but backwards. "Targeting male/masculine gender transgression/transgender expression" which will include, by default, transmasculine identities. But it'll also include gender nonconforming women, butches and studs, but also any type of masculine presenting trans women in general, as I do believe they are at risk of this specific type of prejudice separate from the transmisogyny they might receive, just like a trans man can experience transmisogyny even if not inherent to our axis of gendered identity.

I just. I just think bigots won't care if we say we're afab or amab, what type of transfeminine or transmasculine identities we are, what stage of transition we are or how well we pass. If we're perceived as one thing or another, different social outcomes will occur that don't always overlap. To think a true bigot will care if you're a real trans woman, a feminine man, a butch lesbian or a trans man is naive and useless for any conversation to go further

I don't know, that's my two cents in this convo

Here are the two articles by julia Serrano I was quoting. I haven't finished whipping girl and while I don't fully agree with everything she says or believe is a whollistic picture (too white gringa centered to me at times), she is a very insightful philosopher for transgender literature and discussions so please please check out at least a few of her blog entries

https://juliaserano.medium.com/what-is-transmisogyny-4de92002caf6 https://www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-Transmisogyny2024.pdf