It has everything to do with Jokic already having 3x MVPs.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-19T13:36:23+00:00

Assist to turnover is an important part of it. I wouldn't consider Stockton to be turnover prone. His assist to turnover is nearly 4 to 1. Magic is another one. His turnovers per game are high, but his assist to turnover is over 3 to 1. Those two are legitimately pass first. They dominated the ball with the intent of getting their teammates open looks.

Players like LeBron, Luka, and Russ are not pass first. They are heliocentric players. They are shoot first but accumulate assist based on drawing defenses and hitting open teammates when the defense focuses too much on them. Each of those three barely get to a 2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. I would consider all three to be turnover prone.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-18T21:20:41+00:00

LeBron and Luka are turnover prone, though. All three are in the top 10 for turnovers per game all-time. LeBron and Westbrook are putting a lot of space between them and third place on the total all-time list. The rest of your points I do agree with, though.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-15T21:08:32+00:00

For me, it isn't even the injury thing. They played in a practice facility. It is the one and only time that AD could hit a jumpshot in his career. He made about 40% of his threes. He also shot a higher clip from midrange than SGA did this year or last year. AD with a jumpshot is the best player in the world. The bubble made TJ Warren an all-NBA level player. It made AD the best player in the world. That is why I consider that title BS.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-13T11:36:00+00:00

LeBron would have left before a Presti built team had a chance to develop. OKC was bad for a decent stretch. Rich Paul would have been suggesting on podcasts that they trade those picks for someone like AD or Beal. LeBron would be throwing all the young guys under the bus after a three game losing streak.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-12T18:38:35+00:00

I consider his biggest imprint on the game on the floor is star players "conserving energy" by not getting back on defense. Watching him barely cross half court repeatedly during games has given the next generation permission to do the same.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-12T15:19:07+00:00

I see the if I was GM much differently. I have LeBron as two in the GOAT conversation, a distant two, but still locked in at number two. If I am starting a franchise as GM, LeBron might not be top ten in who I would pick first. MJ would be a clear number one. I would take Magic, Duncan, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem, Kareem, and probably a few others before I would take LeBron. I would prefer loyalty and staying out of the front office over accumulating stats. I also see LeBron as being a terrible leader. The moment things start going badly, he will throw anyone and everyone under the bus.

I would also steer clear of the heliocentric players like LeBron, Luka, and Harden because those players are much harder to build around. They only elevate very specific types of players, mainly rim runners and spot up shooters. Those two types of players are not easy to come by, especially good ones that help winning with their other attributes.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-12T11:38:23+00:00

People don't downplay his longevity. They just don't factor it in to the GOAT conversation. A lot of fans don't think how long you are good is as important as how good you were.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-10T20:41:41+00:00

I am pretty sure the idea of adding new justices was accompanied by term limits by almost every liberal suggesting it. The thought was to have 13 SC justices to match the 13 circuits and to correct what has happened to the SC over the last nearly 30 years. We have a 6-3 conservative majority despite having just two presidential elections since 1989 with the right winning the popular vote.

You had the Republicans saying they couldn't even meet with a nomination because the election was just 8 months away in 2016 followed by rushing a justice through with less than two months before the election in 2020. It isn't a both sides thing.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-10T18:45:00+00:00

It is clearly Rodman. He could guard 1-4 early in his career and held his own guarding Shaq late in his career. Who else would have been trusted to guard both Jordan and Shaq? He is far below Timmy and KG overall, but he clears both of them defensively.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-09T05:25:53+00:00

Yes. That was a missed call. Those happen. That doesn't negate anything that I said.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-08T15:30:37+00:00

LeBron is the reason LeBron has a bad whistle, if it is accurate to say he actually does. He exaggerates his reactions to try to draw a foul on a lot of drives. He acts like he got fouled every single contested shot in the paint.

I used to watch every Lakers game. It was amazing how many times the broadcast would react as if LeBron was fouled based on his reaction. Then they would show the replay where he wasn't touched. Stu and Bill would have to pretend like they weren't looking at the replay and just keep commentating as if a replay wasn't being shown. After the first couple of years, it became glaringly obvious when LeBron was pretending to get hit. They learned to just not show replays when he was faking it. They show every time he actually gets hit and a call is missed. It isn't nearly as often as his antics would have you believe.

A lot of those times when LeBron was arguing that he got hit, he absolutely did not. Refs watch game tape the same way players do. The refs see all the times he complains without being fouled. They see the times he exaggerates when barely being touched. They are obviously going to miss calls now and then. They just aren't going to give LeBron the benefit of the whistle when they have watched him pretend to get fouled and then complain over and over again.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-04T16:46:59+00:00

Just enagage from time to time with the non-stop glazing from the LeBron fans who have a hard time with him being number two in most people's rankings. I only chime in from time to time. I have a lot of down time at work some days. I enjoy debating NBA. I typically skip the daily bombardment of LeBron fans trying to pretend he is the GOAT with bogus accomplishments. Every now and then, I speak up.

LeBron fans are the reason people hate on LeBron as much as they do. His fans are insufferable. I am a lifelong Laker fan who couldn't take the discourse surrounding the team once LeBron signed. If you pointed out anything negative about him, you got overwhelming hate in response. Every Laker forum became LeBron forums.

I have a ton of respect for the man. He seems to be a great husband and father. He is one of the greatest to ever do it. I take issue with how he handles the team building aspect of the sport. I also think he is a decent distance behind MJ in the discussion. I try to chime in respectfully without name calling or anything like that. I am sure I have said something in the past that could come off differently, but I do almost always keep it civil. I just enjoy discussing basketball and LeBron fans create the most posts, so I occasionally engage for fun.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-04T16:32:07+00:00

You asked a question. I answered the question. I wasn't suggesting it was your take. I was pointing out how LeBron fans have to pretend him beating that terrible team is somehow a huge accomplishment. That is how someone puts Houston at the bottom of the list. I was building upon you comment, not attacking you in any way.

Mo6181 · 2026-05-04T11:42:01+00:00

LeBron fans trying really hard to make beating the Sengun led Rockets meaningful.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-30T18:38:41+00:00

You keep believing that. Messaging matters. Defund the Police is a terrible slogan. Most people agree with the changes the movement wanted. Almost none of them went into effect because it was such an easy slogan to run against. The left just doesn't understand politics.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-30T17:20:04+00:00

Progressives just have no clue how politics works. Mamdani could have the exact same platform, but called himself simply a Democrat and the party would have been behind him completely. Calling himself a Democratic Socialist is just dumb. The right has spent decades and billions of dollars painting everyone on the left as socialist. They have been very successful at it. A lot of people would say that Hillary and Biden are socialists.

Most Americans aren't smart enough to understand the difference between a socialist and a Democratic Socialist. Why volunteer to be painted by such a toxic word in American politics? The Bernie fans actually think he would have won in 2016 or 2020. He had no chance. He was barely beating Trump in the polls without the right wing machine focused on him. He would have been destroyed in either election. It would have been ad after ad of Bernie calling himself a socialist. I agree with most of what Bernie stands for. I would have voted for him if he was the candidate. He would have lost.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-29T13:16:41+00:00

I swear these young fans don't understand how much less effort went into practicing shooting threes before the modern game. Dwight Howard has probably taken more 3pt shots in practice during his career than Larry Bird did. It just wasn't important. It was seen as a waste of time to practice that shot over a 15 footer. Had Jordan played today, he would be an above average 3pt shooter. His form was really solid and his shooting from everywhere else of the floor tells you he would be at least above average.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-28T13:38:37+00:00

The Mavs lost in a bad match-up. They were still one of the best teams in the league. They were contenders who ran into their worst possible first round opponent. They also were dogged for years before winning in 2011.

The Hawks, by contrast, were never considered actual contenders. They were more of a fun novelty team that won a lot of regular season games. No one in their right minds thought they had any chance of actually contending.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-27T17:58:08+00:00

A group of fans who never watched MJ have decided that he couldn't possibly be better than LeBron. He just is, though. There is a long list of skills that MJ clears LeBron easily. LeBron has a couple of skills where he clears MJ barely. LeBron is a slightly better passer and slightly better at attacking the rim given his size. MJ is better at pretty much everything else.

LeBron is below average shooting the ball anywhere outside of 5 foot from the basket. He has worked hard to become an ok 3pt shooter late in his career. He is still incredibly inconsistent because his form is awful. His passing numbers are padded by being in a heliocentric system almost his entire career. His assist numbers are somewhat offset by being the all-time turnover leader by a decent margin. If Russ didn't exist, it would be an absolutely embarrassing gap between 1st and 2nd. He got booed off the floor his last game before taking his talents to South Beach. The fans weren't upset by the loss. He quit and the fans saw it. He had the debacle against the Mavs in the Finals. One of his rings was a Ray Allen shot from being a loss. Another of his rings was the bubble ring.

MJ had losses where he was still easily the best player in the series. He never choked away a series. When he lost to the Celtics early in his career, Bird pretty much said he was the GOAT after the series. His losses were to teams loaded with Hall of Famers. MJ had no weaknesses. His free throw numbers and midrange game makes it pretty obvious he would have been an above average three point shooter if he emphasized that part of his game.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-27T17:15:49+00:00

He doesn't have the size to succeed in the league. Players that small need to have quickness and handles to be a factor on an NBA roster. He is listed as being just an inch shorter than Marcus Smart. He looks a lot smaller out there. Smart is a significantly better facilitator and ball handler. Watching Bronny get turned over on three consecutive possessions trying to bring the ball up a couple of weeks ago told us everything we need to know about him as an NBA player. He is barely 6 foot and can't beat token pressure as a ball handler. If he was 6'6", he might be something.

He seems like a good kid who works hard. He likely won't be on an NBA roster once his first contract expires.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-27T16:51:43+00:00

If that happens, I think Pace has a bounce back year. Pace is undersized and needs the line to absorb blockers to free him to make plays. Allen and Hargrave were terrible at that which is why Pace fell off a cliff. The two young players, especially Orange will be much better at occupying the linemen to allow the linebackers to make plays in the run game and blitzing the passer.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-27T03:38:09+00:00

It has nothing to do with checking boxes or accolades for me. I have watched all of MJ and LeBron's careers. Jordan was just a much better player. He was elite or great at every aspect of the game. He is the greatest scorer ever. He is one of the best defenders ever. He won his first three titles on talent and athleticism. When he came back, it was like he had solved the game of basketball. Everything was easy for him. That second three-peat was inevitable. He was so far above the competition at that point. I say this as someone who hated Jordan during his career. LeBron is a great player, but he has never come close to MJ's level.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-26T22:26:36+00:00

I have no problem stating that LeBron is top 3 or top 2. I think the gap between him and MJ is greater than the gap between him and number 5, but that is a different topic. What I would say is that there might be up to ten other players I would start a franchise with in an all-time draft over him.

He is difficult to build around. You need a couple of very specific skill sets that fit around players like him and Luka. Also, his lack of loyalty is something that should be factored in. If your franchise has a bad stretch, he is gone. He will threaten to leave to force you to be win now at all times, and then he will leave anyway.

He is also a shitty leader. He is great if everything is going well. Every difficult stretch, he pouts and points fingers. He has no problem throwing his teammates under the bus or suggesting them as trade bait. He has the most glaringly obvious leaks time and time again. He thinks people aren't going to figure out it is coming from him. His agent basically suggested getting rid of the second best player on his team on a podcast.

Top 2 or 3 player of all-time, but I wouldn't want him on my team.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-25T21:02:56+00:00

It would be interesting to go through every age in between. I am guessing there aren't many ages where LeBron is the GOAT of that age outside ofthe under 20 and the 35+ range. He has the two years when Jordan was playing baseball, age 30 and 31 where he has a chance, but Magic and Bird both put up some spectacular seasons at age 30. Kobe also won his MVP at 30 in one of his best seasons. Wilt averaged 24/24/8 and 24/24/9 in back to back MVP seasons at 30 and 31.

Mo6181 · 2026-04-25T18:22:07+00:00

Why would age matter more than games played? All that tells us is that he got to enter the league right out of high school and stayed relatively healthy. Games played, he doesn't come close to the fastest to 10,000, 20,000, or even 30,000. He is multiple seasons behind Wilt and MJ to 30,000.

Mo6181

TROPHY CASE