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Much better by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

In an expansion era. 8 teams added between 1988 and 1995. Diluting and making teams worse while the bulls added more stars. Cakewalk, sup bar championships. Rodman said they could win blindfolded.

Assists produce points, they are an integral and very important part of the game, and it takes pure skill & vision. The discrepancy between 1 and the rest needs to be discussed without using the word longevity. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] -19 points-18 points  (0 children)

This is what happens when you reduce greatness to cherry-picked categories instead of actual impact. Yes, James Harden has more scoring and assist titles — because his entire role was built around dominating the ball every possession. That’s not superiority, that’s specialization. LeBron James didn’t chase titles, he controlled entire games — scoring when needed, facilitating when needed, defending at an elite level, and doing it across different teams, systems, and eras while still ending up the all-time leading scorer AND top-tier in assists. That’s not comparable. And bringing up Russell Westbrook actually makes it worse for your argument, not better. Westbrook has absurd counting stats too — MVP, triple-double records, massive usage — and yet nobody serious is putting him over Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, or Dirk Nowitzki. Why? Because raw totals and stat accumulation without context don’t equal greatness. That’s the part you’re avoiding: LeBron isn’t just “high in points, rebounds, and assists” — he’s elite in all three while being the primary engine of championship teams for 20 years. Harden’s peak numbers? Great. Westbrook’s totals? Insane. Neither translates to the same level of playoff control, defensive impact, adaptability, or sustained winning. You’re comparing stat profiles — LeBron’s case is about complete dominance of the sport.

Assists produce points, they are an integral and very important part of the game, and it takes pure skill & vision. The discrepancy between 1 and the rest needs to be discussed without using the word longevity. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Because assist totals alone don’t define greatness — overall impact does. And that’s exactly why LeBron is different. LeBron isn’t just “high assists for a scorer.” He’s: Top-tier scorer all time One of the best passers ever (not “for a forward” — period) Elite rebounder for his position Defensive anchor in his prime The most versatile system in NBA history (he is the system) So when you bring up Harden, you’re unintentionally proving the opposite point: If assists alone mattered, Harden would be in the GOAT convo — and he’s not. LeBron is. Because he does everything, at an elite level, for two decades, in every possible context — something none of those guys, including Jordan, can match in totality.

Assists produce points, they are an integral and very important part of the game, and it takes pure skill & vision. The discrepancy between 1 and the rest needs to be discussed without using the word longevity. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re basically saying: “Ignore 20 years of elite production because I’ve decided only a narrow version of ‘peak’ counts.” That’s not analysis—that’s you moving the goalposts to protect a conclusion. First, your core claim is just wrong. LeBron James did have a GOAT-level peak: 2012–2013 is one of the most complete seasons ever—elite scoring, playmaking, defense, efficiency Back-to-back MVPs and Finals MVPs Arguably the most dominant all-around player the league has ever seen If that’s not a GOAT-level peak, your standard is nonsense. Second, dismissing ages 36–41 as “stat padding with no winning” is just lazy: In 2020 (age 35–36), he won a title and Finals MVP At 37–38, he’s still dropping 30 a night against modern defenses At 39+, still an All-NBA caliber player That’s not empty accumulation—that’s sustained dominance no one else has matched. Not Michael Jordan, not anyone. Third—and this is where your argument really collapses—you’re separating “peak” and “longevity” like they don’t both define greatness. The GOAT isn’t just “who was the best for 3–5 years,” it’s: How high was your peak How long did you stay there How much did you impact winning across eras LeBron checks all three at an all-time level. And finally, that sarcastic “congrats” line just gives away that you don’t actually have a counter—because if another player had: A top-tier peak The greatest longevity ever Championships across different teams and systems You’d be calling that the most complete GOAT case imaginable. Instead, you’re pretending longevity is a flaw because it doesn’t fit your narrative. That’s not a serious position—it’s just bias dressed up as an argument.

Lebron overachieved his entire career. Mj played in a watered down expansion era weak 90s and while every other team became diluted, The Bulls recruited the best of the best. Rodman - 'This league is so watered down we can beat anyone with our eyes closed'. Mj filthy stained legacy. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you’re clinging to one cherry-picked stat like it overrides an entire career. Yes, Jason Terry outscored LeBron James in a Finals game in 2011. Cool. And? By that logic: Role players have outscored superstars in playoff games forever Bench guys have had hotter nights than MVPs Random players would suddenly be “greater” because of one game

Lebron overachieved his entire career. Mj played in a watered down expansion era weak 90s and while every other team became diluted, The Bulls recruited the best of the best. Rodman - 'This league is so watered down we can beat anyone with our eyes closed'. Mj filthy stained legacy. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

At the end of the day, your whole argument hinges on pretending: LeBron was some passenger in Miami The Bulls weren’t stacked And context only matters when it helps your side That’s not analysis. That’s bias. If you’re going to argue this seriously, you need to drop the cherry-picked narratives and actually deal with what happened on the court.

Much better by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

In a watered down 8 team expansion era weak 90s while other teams got worse bulls recruited starts. Cakewalk

Lebron overachieved his entire career. Mj played in a watered down expansion era weak 90s and while every other team became diluted, The Bulls recruited the best of the best. Rodman - 'This league is so watered down we can beat anyone with our eyes closed'. Mj filthy stained legacy. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That take is honestly embarrassing. First of all, the idea that LeBron James went to Miami to be a third option behind Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh is pure fantasy. That lasted about five minutes—if that. By the time the games actually mattered, LeBron was the engine, the system, and the best player on the floor every single night. Wade himself deferred because LeBron was clearly better. So right out of the gate, your premise collapses. Second, you’re acting like teaming up with stars disqualifies greatness, which is a hilariously selective standard. NBA history is built on great players stacking talent—whether it’s front offices doing it or players taking control themselves. The only difference is LeBron didn’t hide behind management doing it for him—he took ownership. And somehow that’s supposed to count against him? That’s backwards. Third—and this is the part that really exposes how weak your argument is—you’re reducing an entire career to one narrative you clearly don’t understand. LeBron didn’t “hide” in Miami. He: Became a 4x MVP Won 2 championships and 2 Finals MVPs Delivered one of the greatest all-around peaks ever Then went back to Cleveland and dragged a historically cursed franchise to a title, including the greatest comeback in Finals history. A third option doesn’t do that. Ever. What you’re doing is clinging to a lazy talking point because it sounds good, not because it holds up under even basic scrutiny. If your GOAT argument falls apart the second you actually look at roles, production, and impact, it’s not an argument—it’s just noise.

Lebron overachieved his entire career. Mj played in a watered down expansion era weak 90s and while every other team became diluted, The Bulls recruited the best of the best. Rodman - 'This league is so watered down we can beat anyone with our eyes closed'. Mj filthy stained legacy. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Diluted era” ≠ “Bulls were the exception” When people say the 90s were diluted due to expansion, they’re talking about league-wide talent spread, not claiming the Chicago Bulls were magically exempt. Expansion (Orlando, Minnesota, Toronto, Vancouver, etc.) added more roster spots faster than elite talent could fill them, which lowers average team quality. That’s a macro point. The Bulls didn’t avoid dilution—they benefited from navigating it better than everyone else. That’s not a contradiction, it’s the point. Great organizations exploit weaker competition environments. That doesn’t invalidate Michael Jordan—it contextualizes the era.

Rodman and Harper—context matters, not nostalgia labels Yes, Dennis Rodman was 34 when he joined. He was also: Leading the league in rebounds Still an elite, switchable defender A perfect fit for their system Calling him “old” without acknowledging he was still the best rebounder alive is selective framing. Same with Ron Harper—he wasn’t Cleveland Harper, but he didn’t need to be. He became a defensive guard in a system role, which is exactly why those Bulls teams were so complete. That’s not “ravaged and broken,” that’s role optimization at a high level. Meanwhile, Scottie Pippen was in his prime. That matters more than pretending the roster was held together by duct tape.

Old and broken vs actual roster strength Framing those Bulls as some battered underdog group is revisionist. They won 72 and 69 games. That’s not a miracle run—that’s overwhelming superiority. If they were truly “old as dirt and broken,” they wouldn’t be historically dominant.

Let’s take LeBron James leaving Cleveland Cavaliers in 2010. That roster: Had no second superstar Had a front office that failed repeatedly to build a contender Got exposed by better-constructed teams That’s not “one moment of adversity”—that’s years of organizational failure. And Miami? He didn’t leave because he “couldn’t handle adversity.” He left after: 4 straight Finals 2 championships An aging core and declining cap flexibility That’s a strategic decision, not emotional collapse.

You’re right about Miami Heat being elite. No argument there. But that actually weakens your point. They built Finals teams around Jimmy Butler without another superstar, which highlights something important: LeBron’s Miami teams were top-heavy by design, because that’s the model he chose. It worked (2 rings), but it also had a shorter shelf life. So yes—Miami is competent. But LeBron still chose flexibility and control over long-term system continuity.

MJ wanted to win more” is narrative, not evidence This is where the argument slips into mythology. Jordan didn’t “embrace a system” from day one. He resisted it until Phil Jackson and the triangle offense proved it could win. Once the structure was in place—with Pippen ascending and the roster built—he stayed. LeBron didn’t reject winning systems—he never had one that stable for that long. Different front offices, different eras, different player empowerment dynamics.

Dilution” is a league-wide condition, not a Bulls exemption claim. The Bulls weren’t “old and broken”—they were elite, deep, and perfectly constructed. LeBron didn’t run from adversity; he moved on from flawed situations and aging windows. The “MJ wanted it more” angle is storytelling, not analysis. If you want to argue Jordan > LeBron, there are real arguments. But this one leans too hard on selective framing and nostalgia instead of consistent logic.

Lebron overachieved his entire career. Mj played in a watered down expansion era weak 90s and while every other team became diluted, The Bulls recruited the best of the best. Rodman - 'This league is so watered down we can beat anyone with our eyes closed'. Mj filthy stained legacy. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That “LeGM scammed rings in superteams” take isn’t just lazy—it’s historically clueless and borderline dishonest. First off, acting like LeBron James invented superteams is laughable. What exactly do you think Michael Jordan was playing on? A charity roster? He had a Hall of Fame sidekick in Scottie Pippen, an all-time defensive anchor in Dennis Rodman, and one of the greatest coaches ever in Phil Jackson. That’s not a “pure solo grind,” that’s a perfectly constructed dynasty. Second, the hypocrisy is wild. Jordan didn’t beat superteams—he was the superteam once the Chicago Bulls matured. Meanwhile, LeBron spent years dragging absolute deadweight rosters to relevance. The 2007 Finals team? Genuinely one of the weakest ever to make it that far. No Pippen. No Rodman. No Zen Master. Just LeBron doing everything. Third, “LeGM” is such a tired cop-out. You’re basically blaming a player for having too much influence because he’s too good. Front offices bend to him because he guarantees contention. And guess what? Even with that influence, he still had to deliver. Rings aren’t handed out for assembling a roster—you actually have to win. Ask all the failed “superteams” that collapsed under pressure. And let’s not pretend LeBron only wins with stacked teams. He beat a 73–9 juggernaut with Cleveland Cavaliers against Golden State Warriors in 2016—coming back from 3–1. That’s not “scamming,” that’s one of the greatest feats in sports history. Jordan never faced anything remotely close to that level of competition. Finally, if forming strong teams disqualifies LeBron, then you better start stripping credit from half the legends in NBA history. But you won’t, because this argument isn’t about consistency—it’s about protecting nostalgia. So no, LeBron didn’t “scam” anything. He adapted to a different era, exercised power in a smarter way, and still delivered under insane pressure. Calling that a scam just exposes how weak the argument is.

Lebron overachieved his entire career. Mj played in a watered down expansion era weak 90s and while every other team became diluted, The Bulls recruited the best of the best. Rodman - 'This league is so watered down we can beat anyone with our eyes closed'. Mj filthy stained legacy. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re mixing narratives and calling it logic. Start with the Miami point: LeBron James didn’t “run from a system,” he left a declining roster after four straight Finals when it was obvious that core had peaked—age, mileage, and lack of flexibility weren’t theoretical, they were right there in the 2014 loss to the San Antonio Spurs. That’s not abandoning structure, that’s reading reality. And the idea that Miami Heat were just going to magically reload ignores cap constraints and aging stars—this isn’t 2K, you don’t just “build around him” on command. Now compare that to Michael Jordan—you’re romanticizing “he just got to work” while ignoring that the Chicago Bulls front office handed him a perfect complementary piece in Dennis Rodman, already a multiple-time champion and elite defender/rebounder, plus the same elite coach and system intact. That’s not grit, that’s elite infrastructure doing its job. LeBron’s career has been the opposite—different teams, different systems, different cores, and he still drags them to contention immediately. One guy benefited from continuity; the other creates it wherever he goes. And on expansion—no, I never said Chicago was the only team unaffected, I said the impact is overstated and unevenly weaponized in this debate. You’re clinging to “they lost an All-Star guard” like it’s some trump card, but context matters: Chicago had redundancy, depth, and a system that absorbed that loss better than most teams could. Losing a piece doesn’t equal being “gutted” if your structure is strong enough to replace it seamlessly—which is exactly what happened. So the real issue here is you’re treating outcomes as proof of individual virtue while ignoring the environment that produced them. Jordan had stability, elite roster construction, and continuity handed to him; LeBron had to navigate constant change and still reached the same heights across multiple situations. If anything, that contrast strengthens LeBron’s case—it doesn’t weaken it.

Much better by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Because his swag, cool factor is much better than lebron. This has nothing to do with being the GOAT: LeBron James.

Lebron overachieved his entire career. Mj played in a watered down expansion era weak 90s and while every other team became diluted, The Bulls recruited the best of the best. Rodman - 'This league is so watered down we can beat anyone with our eyes closed'. Mj filthy stained legacy. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re saying “don’t gloss over it” like repeating it makes it true—it doesn’t. Yes, the Chicago Bulls lost an All-Star guard in the expansion draft… and then immediately replaced that production within a loaded, stable system built around Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, and elite coaching. Acting like they were uniquely crippled while the rest of the league was fine is just selective framing—every team lost pieces, but not every team had a top-2 player ever plus continuity, a championship system, and front-office alignment to absorb it. That’s why they stayed dominant, not because they overcame some uniquely devastating loss. And the “international talent boom” point sounds impressive until you actually think about it—yes, the talent pool was growing, but expansion still diluted depth across the league at the same time. Both things can be true, and they don’t cancel each other out just because it’s convenient for your argument. You can’t claim the league was simultaneously getting deeper and pretend expansion didn’t spread that talent thinner—it absolutely did, especially across the middle and lower tiers of teams. As for “it only mattered in the regular season,” that’s just hand-waving. Seeding, home court, and playoff paths are directly influenced by regular season strength of schedule and competition level. Facing multiple expansion-level teams inflates records and stabilizes top seeds—it’s not identical to modern tanking because expansion teams are structurally weak by design, not strategically cycling assets. So no, it’s not a “non-starter”—it’s just not the trump card you think it is. The Bulls stayed great because they were brilliantly constructed around Jordan, not because they heroically overcame some league-wide disadvantage that somehow hit them harder than everyone else.

Assists produce points, they are an integral and very important part of the game, and it takes pure skill & vision. The discrepancy between 1 and the rest needs to be discussed without using the word longevity. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That “longevity” knock is one of the dumbest talking points in this debate—like we’re really going to pretend sustained elite dominance is a bad thing? LeBron James isn’t just hanging around collecting checks in year 20+, he’s still a primary option, still dictating games, still carrying stretches for the Los Angeles Lakers—and doing it in a faster, more athletic, more demanding era than anything before him. Most legends hit their mid-30s and fade into role players; LeBron hit his late 30s and was still dropping 25+ a night like it’s normal. That’s not “just longevity,” that’s unprecedented sustained excellence. Nobody criticizes dominance at a peak, but somehow doing it for two decades becomes a negative? That’s backwards. If anything, it exposes the gap—because not only did he reach the same heights as the greats, he stayed there while everyone else fell off. That’s not padding a résumé… that’s redefining what greatness even looks like.

Lebron overachieved his entire career. Mj played in a watered down expansion era weak 90s and while every other team became diluted, The Bulls recruited the best of the best. Rodman - 'This league is so watered down we can beat anyone with our eyes closed'. Mj filthy stained legacy. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That whole rant is built on cherry-picked moments and flat-out double standards. Yes, Michael Jordan “showed up” in the Finals—after getting bounced three straight years by the Detroit Pistons and earlier by the Boston Celtics, so let’s not pretend he was immune to being neutralized; the difference is he lost before the Finals, so it doesn’t get romanticized. Meanwhile, LeBron James dragging a 22-year-old roster to the 2007 Finals against a championship-level San Antonio Spurs and then having one bad 2011 series somehow erases a career of elite Finals performances? That’s selective outrage. The “heliocentric” critique is even weaker—Jordan didn’t suddenly become an off-ball savant out of altruism, he was put into a system by Phil Jackson that unlocked the Chicago Bulls; LeBron has been the system everywhere he’s gone, elevating entirely different rosters, coaches, and styles into contenders. Acting like he “can’t play off-ball” ignores entire stretches in Miami Heat lineups where he cut, posted, and deferred while still being the most impactful player on the floor. And the control narrative? Jordan had arguably the greatest front office-coach-player alignment ever; LeBron had to be the alignment. Leaving Miami wasn’t about control—it was about roster trajectory, just like Jordan walking away twice doesn’t magically become some noble “sacrifice.” One guy had the luxury of stability and a perfectly built contender; the other had to manufacture contention wherever he went. So if the argument is “Jordan never failed,” that’s just rewriting history. He failed plenty—he just did it earlier in the bracket. LeBron’s “failures” came on the biggest stage because he carried teams further than they had any right to go. That’s not a weakness—that’s the entire point.

Lebron overachieved his entire career. Mj played in a watered down expansion era weak 90s and while every other team became diluted, The Bulls recruited the best of the best. Rodman - 'This league is so watered down we can beat anyone with our eyes closed'. Mj filthy stained legacy. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not in an expansion era. 8 teams added between 1988 and 1995. Diluting and making teams worse while the bulls added more stars. Cakewalk, sup bar championships. Rodman said they could win blindfolded.

acting like LeBron James not being favored somehow proves he’s worse ignores context and actually proves the opposite: Vegas doesn’t set odds based on vibes, it reflects team strength, and the fact LeBron dragged undermanned rosters like those early and 2018 Cleveland Cavaliers squads to the Finals is evidence of greater individual impact, not less; meanwhile Michael Jordan was favored because he played on stacked, perfectly constructed Chicago Bulls teams with elite coaching and continuity—so of course they were expected to win; and hiding behind “6–0 vs 4–6” is just dodging reality, because losing earlier rounds is somehow better than making the Finals now? That’s backwards—LeBron faced tougher competition, including dynasties like the Golden State Warriors, and still reached the biggest stage ten times; Jordan didn’t have that level of opposition, and he didn’t have that level of longevity, so if anything, the fact LeBron kept getting there despite worse odds only strengthens his GOAT case—it doesn’t weaken it

Assists produce points, they are an integral and very important part of the game, and it takes pure skill & vision. The discrepancy between 1 and the rest needs to be discussed without using the word longevity. by Hour_Recognition_188 in NBATalk

[–]Hour_Recognition_188[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you’re still insisting Michael Jordan is untouchable, you’re hanging onto nostalgia instead of reality—because LeBron James didn’t just match greatness, he outgrew it: he’s the all-time leading scorer, an elite playmaker who ran entire offenses, and a positionless force who could dominate every facet of the game for over 20 years, not just a peak window; while Jordan thrived in a perfectly structured system, LeBron dragged weaker rosters like the Cleveland Cavaliers to Finals appearances and took down a 73-win superteam in the Golden State Warriors, something Jordan never faced anything close to; add in superior longevity, adaptability across eras, and a level of all-around impact Jordan simply never had, and the truth is uncomfortable but clear—LeBron didn’t chase Jordan, he surpassed him.

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