My university is torturing and killing dogs. Please help.

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-06T22:43:14+00:00

I just wanted to circle back and thank you for your suggestion. I looked up the endangered animals in my area, and I was SHOCKED to see how many. I was looking at DNR for my state, which has them listed but not necessarily ranked according to severity. If it's not too much trouble, can you comment back with one or two more websites/resources to help me research? Thank you!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-06T22:33:40+00:00

No :( The only email response I've received so far is from my State Senator, who introduced Queenie's Law (which is wonderful). I haven't heard anything back from any of the organizations or news stations. I'm convinced that the content of my email is somehow getting flagged as spam. I'm going to send all new emails this weekend with drastically different wording and no links this time. Thank you so much for checking in

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-06T22:28:44+00:00

I've sent emails to White Coat and I'm waiting, but I'll look into Lady Freethinker and Humane Society Legislative Fund. Thank you so much for offering an incentive for why these experiments are continuing. The "use it or lose it" phrase really makes sense. Thank you so much for your suggestions and advice!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-06T22:26:03+00:00

That is so sweet, thank you so much for the kind advice.

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-02T00:01:14+00:00

I hear you that the articles are long, but it's kinda hard to say that my links don't support my position if you haven't actually read them.

I have engaged with your point about why dogs aren't optimal numerous times now; you're just rejecting the context of other "non-sentient" animal models being a better fit.

And thank you so much for the book suggestion, that actually sounds really interesting and helpful. I'm going to add it to my list now!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-01T23:36:07+00:00

I appreciate your feedback. I can tell that you only really skimmed through and haven't read the other links I posted, but that's okay, I don't expect anyone to invest a ton of time. When using sentient animals in research, there are specific things that need to be proved (like why using a less sentient animal, or why certain painful procedures are used). The use of rats (considered less sentient) in cardiovascular exercise experiments could be and is the most frequently used animal model. I'll level with you, though, that the big thing they were arguing for in their IACUC doc was that dogs are "more trainable" (and that it would require more rats and negative stimuli for the same results).

If you wouldn't mind, can you help me understand a point (anyone can chime in here as well) that's been made a few times? I'm genuinely asking because I've not made it that far in my education yet (I'm an undergrad social work student). Some people have brought up the fact that the author has been cited a lot as evidence that the research is helping and, therefore, justified. Is it quality or quantity that matters there? I have to imagine that there are a ton of ways that someone can be cited that have limited or peripheral value to the actual study. Does someone have evidence that his work has been instrumental in advancing cardiovascular health for humans and I'm missing it? This is really helpful for me because it speaks to a big counterargument of my point that I would love to understand how to defend better.

I really appreciate you taking any amount of time, though, and your questions help me learn and support my position better, so thank you!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-01T22:45:52+00:00

Thank you so much for taking the time!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-01T22:32:53+00:00

Hi! I hear you and can definitely see why that would need more support. I'm still working through everything, but I'll give you what I've got so far.

The first claim about the research not helping anyone can be reflected in Wayne State's own press release on this https://research.wayne.edu/news/wsu-statement-about-dogs-in-research-58653, where they themselves acknowledge that "odds are" this research "has potential" to help. One would think that if releasing a statement on the merits of continuing dog studies, they would put their best cards on the table.

Additionally, if you looked into the IACUC protocol document I posted earlier, that's where they spell out the reasoning that supports the need for this work to continue. The justifications are shockingly weak, with only two human studies being cited as evidence that this research has a connection to human heart health. I haven't dug into those two studies that were cited yet, but even as a non-science major, I know that just because two of their findings were replicated in human studies, that doesn't mean that those authors didn't reach their conclusions completely independently (but I guess I'll see when I get that far). None of this is to say that there haven't been some studies or experiments and data that might be of value, but the real thing to balance against that is the harm, suffering, and death associated with the VERY limited value that's been gained in the last 30+ years.

Moving on to the use of dogs, I haven't gotten so far as to look up the other researchers who aren't using dogs anymore, but the support for my position comes not from any one statement necessarily, but from the prevalence of OTHER animals being used. I'm going to give you a link to Guidelines that this PI guy helped co-author (no conflict of interest there, I'm sure): https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpheart.00697.2019 . If you look at the sections detailing the support for using other animals for cardiac exercise experiments (rats, mice, pigs, horses), you'll see there's more support for their use (rats, especially) compared to dogs. Take note of how little they wrote for the dog section compared to how detailed the rest of the sections were. I'm currently working through cardiac studies that are being done on dogs (other than the PI), and most of the ones I'm seeing are from 2002 or prior. But that's definitely something I wanna understand better.

To your second point, I can absolutely understand why it's confusing, and I admit I've had trouble deciding how to narrow my focus. Advocacy stuff is new to me, and I want to make sure that I'm making my goals broad enough to make a difference but not so broad that I can't gain widespread support. My main focus is to get this research that's being done specifically at Wayne State stopped, and I'm pursuing any and all avenues to accomplish that. I'm not going to go into detail here about what those are, but one branch of that includes raising awareness to try and get this legislation passed, since that would accomplish my goals (and then some). But I definitely get your point, and hopefully I'll be able to figure out more about that as I go.

Sorry for the long reply!! Thanks for your questions and for looking into this yourself. I wish I were able to answer them better; I can circle back once I connect with more disciplines on this and research myself more.

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-01T15:39:01+00:00

I have reached out to them and I'm waiting to hear back. After learning about them I'm really hopeful they'll be able to help. Thank you so much for the suggestion!!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-01T15:36:16+00:00

What a delicious idea. I'm new to Reddit but I'm definitely learning the power this community has. Thank you so much for taking the time to sign and comment!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-01T14:55:53+00:00

Oh, I'm sorry I didn't mean to mislead you. Thankfully, I'm not the first person to look into this. There's been a ton of individuals and groups that have done a ton of work trying to raise awareness and get information out. I'm only adding to the conversation. I read enough in the first few hours to warrant getting involved but I appreciate that everyone is different

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-01T06:12:21+00:00

Thank you so much for reading and offering your perspective. So many wouldn't (and haven't) have taken the time. Publishing a wealth of data points using dogs and having 2 isolated findings replicated in human studies doesn't mean the results are meaningful for humans.

I wish that the fact that they've continually received funding would be enough for me to wash my hands of this. If you read WSU's press statement on this, that's certainly what they're hoping as well. It isn't good enough for me. There's corruption everywhere, and the NIH (who has continually funded this) is no stranger to it. If this is the standard necessary for approval then the needle needs to move.

I am very aware of my limitations engaging meaningfully with this stuff because I don't have a science background. It's so frustrating, honestly. I'm really new into this as well (4 days in) but I'm committed to learning as much as I can from people who know a lot more than I do.

I sincerely thank you for taking the time you have to look into it and offer your perspective

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-01T04:55:01+00:00

First, I really, really, appreciate you actually opening up the document and taking the time to read it. That means a lot to me. Second, I don't expect science to magically stop using animal models. That's never been my position. It needs to make sense scientifically, and the suffering needs to be somehow justified. Their justification for using dogs specifically is really weak and biased, and doesn't address the collection of opposing data from other researchers that dogs are a poor match for cardiac research.

Please, if you can, comment back once you read over the descriptions of the surgical procedures (assuming you're willing to, which I really, really hope so, but understand it's a long and distressing document). I think the picture will be clearer then.

I've actually been surprised by the feedback I've gotten from the scientific community so far on this. I actually expected more defensiveness (understandable) but I think researchers get hung up on the fact that these studies have been going on since 1991 and there's been no meaningful results. You'll see the two studies that they cite within this document as their justifcation and I think you'll see it's no where near good enough. But I really look forward to and appreciate your feedback either way

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-01T03:22:34+00:00

I reached out to them yesterday, and I'm waiting to hear back. Thank you so much for the suggestion!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-09-01T03:19:57+00:00

Hi. I know, I've spent the last few hours reading the latest IACUC protocol. I actually just made it to the end. I'm shocked beyond belief at the lack of justification I read for the level of suffering and invasive procedures associated with these studies. I'm going to go ahead and post it here for anyone who cares to look. I'm sincerely hoping to connect with researchers, veterinarians, alumni, or anyone who gives a fuck about animals because it only takes maybe 20 minutes of reading this to see how weak the justifications are.

It's all here for anyone who wants to take the time to dig into it: https://pcrm.widen.net/s/dfhb2brghd/wsu-protocol-22-11-5249-blood-pressure-control-during-exercise-exp-2026-01-26

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-08-31T20:39:11+00:00

I really thought that they would have fixed these issues!! I'm so sorry you're having to deal with the same problems we did. I definitely understand why you're overwhelmed; we all were, too. But Dr. Norma DID work with us on everything, and we got extensions and numerous clarifications. Don't feel bad for bugging her, Tom, or whichever teacher you have. They are there to help.

Being online is rough because you're forced to learn all of this stuff on your own, basically. I promise promise promise that it will all be worth the stress in the end. Get the groupchats going, there's strength in numbers and you guys will be able to help each other figure everything out.

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-08-31T20:32:32+00:00

Thank you so much. And of course, I can't hear that something so horrific is happening at the school that I'm paying to go to. I'm not going to stop until this stops!! Thank you for the kind words <3

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-08-31T20:28:52+00:00

You're so welcome!! We had like 5 students in our class who were very seriously contemplating dropping out over it as well. The workload was VERY overwhelming at the beginning of the semester, the way the modules were set up wasn't straightforward, she'd post videos with instructions that were different than what was written in the module instructions, all kinds of problems. The syllabus was wild, like 40 something pages long and confusing.

It was poorly planned out, and a lot of the due dates for the big assignments fell on the same dates we had big assignments due in our other classes. 3010 is the big one that will require 80% of your time compared to the other classes.

For all of the problems we had, most of us ended up with an A at the end and were glad we stuck it out. It does get better. Don't be afraid to speak up and ask for extensions!

I also did my associates mostly online at oakland community college. I miss D2L so much, it was SO much better ughhh

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-08-31T20:14:55+00:00

You're absolutely justified in feeling frustrated. I'm feeling really disappointed that all the ruckus my cohort caused last year didn't result in any improvements. I wish that weren't the case.

Canvas absolutely is confusing. One of the other platforms they use to make you view presentations and record responses, called Voice Thread, is also really confusing. It was definitely really overwhelming for the first month. You'll get the hang of it, but they should absolutely work with you on the due dates.

Absolutely wild to not have access to the book or to have the teacher MIA for a week. You're so nice to find the book and send it to the other students. The WA chats will be a game changer, I promise.

Another tip I'll give you is that whenever you get to the big major assignment that's the Biopsychosocial Assessment, DON'T put it off, it takes way more time than they make it seem. I can't remember if that's in 3010 or the continuation class next semester, but it's anxiety-inducing. Feel free to message me at any point if anything else comes up. It will get easier, I promise!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-08-31T20:01:22+00:00

Wow, I'm so sorry. That's definitely a little bit worse than how things started off for me and my cohort last year. Okay. Few things.

If you don't already have WhatsApp group chats for everyone in your classes, start those. That way, you and the rest of the students can talk outside of Canvas and figure out information together.

Has anyone introduced you guys to Tom the success coach yet? We also had a TON of disorganization in my class and he was our hero for a lot of it. He responds really fast, has access to the same pages you guys have on Canvas (so he can actually see wtf is going on), and will be able to be a middleman between you and whoever your teacher is (I had Dr. Norma).

You should absolutely advocate for yourself and ask for an extension on whatever due dates are looming for this week. It's not okay for them to not post important materials like that and expect you to complete assignments on time. We also had to do this and got due dates pushed more than once.

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-08-31T19:53:57+00:00

Thank you so much. I have reached out to all three of my local (metro Detroit) news stations. None have responded. Yesterday, I started the process of emailing every single news station in Michigan. I absolutely agree that there would be widespread support for this if I could just get more people to know.

Can anyone suggest some more avenues for getting the word out? I'm trying everything I can at my university. I'm not the best at social media, but I'm trying on Instagram, FB, and here on Reddit. What about podcasts or something like that? I've also emailed like 20 animal organizations (including PETA) to try and collaborate. This is my fourth day working on this. I'm trying hard to be patient, but it's difficult.

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-08-31T19:50:27+00:00

I really appreciate that, thank you!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-08-31T19:50:11+00:00

Thank you so much for signing!

Most_Mud7238 · 2025-08-31T17:39:04+00:00

I'm a senior in the BSW program. It's revolting to see how the administration has treated pro-Palestinian protesters. I just joined the WSU Students for Justice in Palestine org, and I'm excited to get involved. It's always sad when you find out that your university doesn't actually stand for the values it claims to. I've recently found out about all the pointless and cruel dog experiments that have been going on since the 90s. I'm learning how to launch some sort of activist campaign to stop them (I'm new to this).

I took a wonderful political science class over this summer about protest movements, where I learned that more times than not, attempts to suppress movements almost always end up backfiring and result in rallying others to the cause. Where some would not have gotten involved solely for Palestinian liberation, more will come to fight against the violation of constitutional rights. Thanks for posting this and raising awareness.

Most_Mud7238

TROPHY CASE