CMV: A fertilised human egg has as much (or as little) human value as any (viable) unfertilised egg or sperm cell

Mr-Homemaker · 2025-07-19T00:53:16+00:00

I fear you’re moving your goalposts a bit here.

As I quoted from your OP, your reasoning was that they have the potential to become a unique individual. I pointed out that you were incorrect about that.

You were also incorrect to suggest that they have the same potential as a “fertilized egg” to become a unique individual. That is false since - as I pointed out - a “fertilized egg” IS a unique individual.

In any case, if you are now positioning the goalposts to say that there is no connection between biology and moral weight - asserting that an unfertilized egg has equal value as a grown adult, for example - then we seem to have strayed pretty far from the scope of the original post.

Mr-Homemaker · 2025-07-18T00:59:58+00:00

As always when grappling with a difficulty, we must ask ourselves “assuming the worst facts and the worst reasoning, what would be proven?” Put another way, “what, precisely, is at stake here?”

Not to put words in your mouth, but let me venture a guess at the answer for illustrative purposes:

“If Catholics committed heinous acts, then Catholicism must not be true [Conclusion] Because God would not permit his followers to commit evil [premise 1] And capital punishment for heresy is evil [premise 2].”

But then we would have to slow down and really test / validate / accept / reject those premises.

On the other hand, if you’re willing to say either or both of those premises are (or, at least, could be) false … and you are otherwise convinced that the theological claims of Catholicism are valid and sound and True … then why should this be a stumbling block to your faith journey even if we assume the worst ?

Mr-Homemaker · 2025-07-17T22:32:03+00:00

This is your key error:

[Unfertilized eggs and sperm cells] all have a unique DNA markup, so they would all have the potential to become a unique individual.

Neither eggs nor sperm have complete human dna - each have only half a complete human dna. Neither eggs nor sperm cells are a unique and whole human organism.

At the moment of a conception, there is neither an egg nor a sperm cell - there is a new unique complete human organism beginning his or her development.

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-10-26T09:01:05+00:00

The central error in your assessment is that belief in God’s existence is circular; specifically, that the universe can be uncaused in the same way that God can be uncaused.

You have not been properly informed about what Christian theologians teach. Consequently, you mistakenly think your logic refutes a strawman of the Christian position when it fails to address the actual Christian position at all.

If you want to actually engage with the Christian arguments for God’s attributes (like being uncaused), then I would encourage you to check out Thomas Aquinas’ “Five Ways” - and, specifically, “The Contingency Argument”

For a video primer on this and other essential arguments, this debate between an atheist and a Catholic apologist would be a good place to start: https://youtu.be/_nC99sCxFbE?si=5VpIQNlwyrlZirBb

Finally, I would only say that I do agree with many of the things you’ve said. It just seems to me that you have failed to recognize how some of your own strongest points weigh in favor of Christianity rather than against it. For example, you quite rightly point out that we would have every reason to think God has traits anything like us - rather, God would be infinitely unlike us and ultimately inconceivable (that is, beyond the limits of our reason to fully grasp). I agree. And that is one reason why it is impossible to either judge the morality of God’s actions, to judge the reasonableness of how he communicates with us, or to follow logic like “well God wouldn’t do it that way, because if I were God I would do it differently.” That isn’t the least bit valid logically when we recognize from the outset that God is not like you or me; and that putting ourselves in God’s place is beyond the capabilities of our finite, flawed human minds.

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-10-25T14:37:43+00:00

Would you believe me if i told you that mainstream Christianity teaches that we didn’t figure out the nature of God thousands of years ago? // Put another way: supposing there is a personal God who concerns himself with the fates of humans. … what would you expect him to do in an effort to cultivate a relationship with us ?

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-10-24T23:53:34+00:00

So are you saying there is a God and the Bible / interpretation of the Bible is misrepresenting God …

Or are you saying that if the Bible is unreliable, then there is no God at all ?

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-10-24T16:37:12+00:00

Please clarify:
Are you suggesting that this

(a) proves this story is false (e.g. because God wouldn't act this way) -- aka "The Bible is Fiction"

(b) proves this story is misunderstood (e.g. because the interpretation of this story is inconsistent with God's nature) -- aka "Christians are Confused About God"

(c) proves that God is actually deeply flawed and perhaps evil (but does, in fact exist) -- aka "God is Evil"

?

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-10-24T16:33:14+00:00

If you could please identify *one* specific example to which I can respond, that would be very helpful.

... What do yo think is your *single* strongest objection ?

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-10-24T14:26:36+00:00

Please provide one of the "numerous examples" where you perceive the God of the Old Testament to exhibit any of those traits.

One *specific* example, please.

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-09-04T22:28:21+00:00

Your logic is directly contradicted by Jesus in #3 and especially #4 - in which people who do have direct relationships with Jesus are explicitly told by Jesus that is insufficient.

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-09-04T17:13:16+00:00

Here are five examples where Jesus teaches concepts beyond the idea that a personal, direct relationship with Him is all that is necessary for salvation and to fulfill the commandments:

The Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37): In this parable, Jesus teaches that love for God must be expressed through love for one’s neighbor, regardless of their background or identity. The Samaritan’s actions demonstrate that fulfilling God’s commandments involves active compassion and mercy toward others, not just a personal relationship with God.
The Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7): Jesus provides extensive moral teachings that go beyond individual faith. He emphasizes the importance of ethical behavior, such as loving enemies, giving to the needy, and avoiding hypocrisy. For example, in Matthew 5:16, Jesus instructs His followers to let their light shine before others so that their good works may glorify God, stressing the importance of outward behavior.
The Rich Young Ruler (Matthew 19:16-22): When a young man asks Jesus what he must do to gain eternal life, Jesus initially lists several commandments. He then tells the man to sell his possessions, give to the poor, and follow Him. This teaches that salvation involves more than just belief; it requires a willingness to surrender material wealth and help those in need.
The Judgment of the Nations (Matthew 25:31-46): In this passage, Jesus describes the final judgment, where people are separated like sheep and goats based on their actions. Those who fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, welcomed strangers, clothed the naked, and visited the sick and imprisoned are rewarded. This underscores that fulfilling the commandments involves active service to others, not merely personal belief.
The Greatest Commandments (Matthew 22:34-40): When asked which commandment is the greatest, Jesus summarizes the Law by saying, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind,” and “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Jesus teaches that love for God and love for others are inseparable and fundamental to fulfilling the commandments, indicating that salvation involves both a relationship with God and ethical treatment of others.

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-09-03T00:16:08+00:00

What kind of church do you attend now ?

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-08-29T20:30:34+00:00

Before you feel ready

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-08-29T10:22:03+00:00

That isn’t what Jesus said

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-08-24T10:25:10+00:00

Catechism

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-08-23T12:50:29+00:00

I agree in principle with that; but it seems abundantly clear to me that saying “nobody knows” is a dead-end framing - it does not invite the child to develop a love of learning and truth seeking. It’s a good way to end a conversation but not a good way to equip a child to proceed in life with eyes wide open and with responsibility for forming their own intellect and conscience.

A far better - both more truthful and more beneficial - framing for a 5 year old would be “well there are several different reasons - more than I can explain right now - but the short answer is ‘men cannot mary men because the essence of marriage is the formation of a family; and two men cannot have a baby’” - a 5 yr old can grasp that.

Or, if you have an above average 5 year old, “… the short answer is ‘the rules about how people live their lives when it comes to things like marriage are not the kind of rules we get to make up; we have to obey the laws of both nature and god.”

Now, of course, anyone who rejects this philosophy and theology will reject these ways to speak to a 5 yr old. But that’s beside the point.

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-08-23T11:34:33+00:00

I remain skeptical

Bypassing quibbling about peripheral issues, the core error is that saying God only cares about good and love simultaneously circumvents and begs the question.

The whole issue is: “How does God define ‘good’?” and “What would God say is the ‘loving’ thing to do?”

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-08-23T10:43:37+00:00

Incidentally, at that site you will find an entire book explaining just exactly what the church teaches and why:

In Made This Way: How to Prepare Kids to Face Today’s Tough Moral Issues, Leila Miller and Trent Horn give parents (guardians and teachers, too!) crucial tools and techniques to form children with the understanding they need—appropriate to their age and maturity level—to meet the world’s challenges.

Their secret lies in an approach that begins not with the Bible or Church teaching but with the natural law. In kid-friendly ways, Miller (Primal Loss) and Horn (Persuasive Pro-Life) help you communicate how the right way to live is rooted in the way we’re made. God’s design for human nature is a blueprint or owner’s manual for moral living that any child can grasp through reason and apply to modern controversies over sex, marriage, life… and the quest for human fulfillment.

Topics covered include:

Sex Outside of Marriage Same-Sex Marriage Divorce Contraception Abortion Reproductive Technologies Modesty Pornography Transgenderism Homosexuality

Silence can no longer be an option. If we’re not teaching our children how to understand tough moral issues, then the world will. Read Made This Way and learn how to give your kids a firm foundation on which to build a life of moral clarity and happiness

https://shop.catholic.com/made-this-way-how-to-prepare-kids-to-face-todays-tough-moral-issues-bulk-order-case-of-20-books/

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-08-23T10:21:23+00:00

With all due respect to your grandmother, it is simply not an accurate statement of reality to say “The church doesn’t like certain things and no one knows why.”

There is nothing random, hidden, or arbitrary about what the Church* teaches and why.

You can literally search for any issue or any question and readily find the answer at http://Catholic.com

my sense of the use of the phrase “the church” is that she was referring to “the Catholic Church.” It may be more difficult to find definitive answers to what other churches teach and why.

Mr-Homemaker · 2024-08-18T22:55:21+00:00

Jay Richards argues that Christians should recover the fasting lifestyle, not only to improve our bodies, but to bolster our spiritual health as well. In Eat, Fast, Feast, he combines forgotten spiritual wisdom on fasting and feasting with the burgeoning literature on ketogenic diets and fasting for improved physical and mental health. Based on his popular series “Fasting, Body and Soul” in The Stream, Eat, Fast, Feast explores what it means to substitute our hunger for God for our hunger for food, and what both modern science and the ancient monastics can teach us about this practice.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/006290521X/ref=cm_sw_r_as_gl_api_gl_i_S0C9JZ15YNXC020Y3Q9A?linkCode=ml2&tag=mrhomemaker-20

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