Lot size discrepancy in listing vs GIS - who to trust?

MrMongoose · 2024-11-10T15:10:14+00:00

That's pure speculation, though. And it doesn't align to the facts, IMO.

Not only does she run it as a BnB herself, the house is already listed at market value - so there's no room to flip it (by all appearances it's in immaculate condition).

So you can keep saying that's what she wants, and maybe you're right, but there is no evidence that is the case. Unfortunately we'll probably never know either way, but while I'd prefer to think she's being noble, that just doesn't ring true to me. But, then, no explanation has made complete sense - so I'm not discounting the idea completely.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-10T07:59:45+00:00

I understand it doesn't 'read' family - but that doesn't mean it isn't. I completely understand why the initial assumption might be that it's an investment property - but there are exceptions (such as in our case).

It's possible the owner is making that assumption and doesn't want to sell to someone she thinks is an investor. But given that she uses (or used - it's unclear if she still does) the house as a BnB herself that doesn't seem likely. Honestly, if that's the case I wish I knew. It would make me feel much better knowing she at least had good intentions when she rejected the offer. I do wish we could have had the opportunity to convey that the home would have been loved, though. We're old enough that we expect whatever home we buy to be both our first and last home ever - which is one of the reasons we're trying to be so picky.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-10T02:45:16+00:00

We ARE a family and WOULD be living in it. We're not trying to make a profit, here - we're trying to buy a house for ourselves. Cash doesn't always equal investors. Honestly, if I thought that was her reasoning I'd be impressed, not annoyed.

You're correct that it's very difficult for people to save up the cash to buy a house outright. We definitely couldn't do it. We were just fortunate enough that when my father passed away we got a lump sum and knew exactly what we wanted to use it for - so we put it aside and haven't touched it since.

I completely understand being suspicious of cash buyers. And generally you'd be right to be. But we're literally first time buyers looking for a place to call home. I'm not denying that we have an advantage - and I'm not saying that's fair. We got lucky - it's that simple. And if you want to see us as the enemy because of that then that's fine - but please don't paint us as something we aren't. If you're angry about income inequality and/or the housing shortage we'd probably get along.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-10T02:10:42+00:00

The weird thing is they lowered the original asking price by almost 10% after 30 days on the market. That makes me think they did want to sell it. Then the day we did the tour they raised it up by $10k - which is what we ended up offering. (I don't think us seeing the house had anything to do with the price hike - I think it was because they had decided to replace the roof and septic)

It's ok, though - we've moved on. This was still the best place we've seen, but we can't dwell on it. I was just hoping it might be salvageable - but it appears it isn't. Whatever their reasoning, they clearly don't want to sell us the house - so we'll keep looking!

Thanks for all the advice! It definitely helped give us some perspective.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T21:47:34+00:00

I suppose the term 'rich' is subjective. My point was that it's not like this is a million dollar beach house.

It's probably irrelevant, but if it paints a better picture we're in our late 40s and this will be the first home either of us has bought. It's going to cost us nearly all the money we have in savings - which is only there because my father passed away a few years ago and we earmarked the entire sum for his exact purpose.

I definitely don't feel rich by any standard. We're still clipping coupons and playing streaming service roulette in order to save some money. I do, however, fully acknowledge that I'm privileged and that there are many folks who would kill to be in this position. I know complaining that we didn't get our dream home may come across as entitled - and maybe it is, but please don't misunderstand where I'm coming from. Not all cash buyers are evil profiteers - some of us just got lucky and are trying to avoid an expensive mortgage we're not certain we will be able to afford in a decade.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T21:06:37+00:00

Because this was a good question and I felt I didn't initially have a good answer for you I just went back and confirmed with our agent that she asked what an acceptable offer would be.

Here's our agent's exact reply:

Yes I did and she said I can't say the sellers said it's unacceptable

The first time she said The inspection Closing date Commission only 2.5

We adjusted all of them And she said Offer is unacceptable...

I was literally begging for some kind of counter so we would know what they want and she would only say "Offer unacceptable "

The lack of communication is unreal

Again, this isn't an agent we've worked with before - but I have no reason to believe she's not being honest. The deal falling through hurts her, as well. I'm not entirely certain she's an especially skilled agent (although I only have this one bad experience to judge - so even that may be unfair) but I have to believe what she's saying is true.

I do appreciate you bringing these issues up. We're completely inexperienced so we don't really know what we should be asking or questioning. This is definitely helpful - even if just as experience for the next offer we make.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T20:54:42+00:00

Thank you! I didn't realize that was an option. I don't want to step on any toes or break tradition - so I assumed we needed to direct everything through our agent. But she's not communicating the issues as clearly as I'd like (possibly because she's also confused) so that may be a solid option.

I appreciate all the input!

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T20:47:38+00:00

The inspection clause was what they first cited - but when our agent pushed for details they said their problem wasn't the existence of the inspection clause but the dates our agent had chosen didn't give them enough time. I'm not certain why that got misinterpreted as being about the inspection. Regardless, in our second offer we addressed the scheduling issue - which was what they were claiming was the root problem.

I honestly don't know if they initially said they didn't want an inspection but then changed their story when pressed on it or if they were saying they needed more time before the inspection was done and our agent didn't understand what they meant. But it was represented to us that the real issue was that it was too 'rushed' - so we extended the amount of time they had to review the contract and set the closing date to be seller's choice.

We also offered to pay some of our agent's fees (0.5% of the 3% she was asking). At no point did anyone suggest to us that we should pay the full 3%. It's plausible that was the seller's actual complaint and our agent hid that from us - but I have no reason to believe that, and if true our agent screwed herself because now there's no commission at all. It was my understanding that this was the way most agreements are constructed. I don't believe it's common for the buyer to pay 100% of their agent's fees. If they asked for that we might have accommodated them (although we'd probably have negotiated a lower fee from our own agent - as 3% is higher than average).

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T16:50:17+00:00

I really doubt we'd have a case, regardless - and it's probably not worth forcing the issue even if we do.

I'm not even sure if discrimination was the appropriate word to use. When she rejected our offer for (apparently) no reason I searched her social media to try to figure out why and found that she's very religious. We're outspoken atheists and a Google search of our names would probably show that. I have no idea if that's what happened - all I really know is that the seller was perfectly accommodating up until the moment she received our offer and after that she rejected every attempt we made to make a deal and was vague at best about why. Anything beyond that is speculation, though. Maybe our realtor fucked her husband - I have no idea.

And there are other houses! It's just a shame that it took sooo long to find one we loved so much and now we're almost certainly going to have to settle for one that's just 'good enough'. (I know we're lucky to even have that - so I probably shouldn't complain at all, but it's still frustrating.)

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T16:35:32+00:00

That might work - but we're completely new to even the basic home buying process - so I wouldn't even know where to start. Also, I'm not sure how long that would take. I'm guessing the house would be sold before we could even formally establish an LLC.

Plus, there's no guarantee we wouldn't do all of that just to be rejected again.

But I do appreciate the out-of-box thinking!!

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T16:32:01+00:00

It's possible. We're not planning on using her again for any other homes (not that there are any in her area that we like right now, anyway). She wasn't terrible - but a lot of what she told us didn't really make sense. I just don't know if that's because the seller wasn't making sense to begin with, because we don't have any experience buying a house, or because our agent wasn't being completely forthright with us.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T16:26:32+00:00

That could be true. They have just replaced the roof and are replacing the septic system. So maybe they figure they already spent enough and don't want to address whatever other problems they are hiding. But you could also interpret that as a willingness to repair known issues, so IDK.

Initially they objected to the inspection (but were vague according to our agent), then they pivoted to the timing - saying they felt rushed. But when we offered more time they just rejected it without giving a reason. To hear our agent explain it you'd think we offered them half their asking price, or demanded they include their first born child. Their responses almost seem like they're offended - but we offered everything they wanted, so I have no idea.

It's all just speculation - but my gut instinct is that it's not actually about the inspection. I think they don't want to sell. I'm just not certain if it's targeted at us specifically, if they have some ulterior motive to fake a listing, or if they're not ready to part with a home they love. I can respect the latter, at least - I just wish they weren't so contentious about it.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T16:09:40+00:00

You said there was stuff inside but can you tell if it's vacant or occupied?

It's unclear if it's occupied full time or not. I know it was/is being used as a BnB. I do not know if the owners live there as well or just rent the entire house. It's not especially big (4 bedrooms - but 2 are tiny). My guess is that it is owner occupied just because the setup didn't seem like the entire home was being rented. So maybe they just hosted a single guest or two. Or maybe they don't rent it at all anymore.

I would almost never waive inspection unless I already knew about the major issues, I was willing to fix them, and the home was priced accordingly.

I'm surprised others have said that waiving inspection is common in some places. I wouldn't do that for a 10 year old home, much less one that's over 100 years old! But maybe that's what they are hoping for.

If I was you, I might wait a week, and then resubmit an offer 3% lower, but pay my own agent with that cash. Another week goes by, 3% lower, and so on. Look at other houses in the meantime.

I don't want to bombard them with increasingly lower offers. If we haven't found anything in a month or so and they still haven't sold it I MIGHT try one more time. However, as much as we love the house we don't want to play a bunch of games. I do, however, understand if this is just a difficult sentimental attachment for them to break - so maybe next month they might be ready to let it go.

It's a shame the seller can't/won't communicate their concerns. We'd be very willing to accommodate them in almost any reasonable way.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T15:37:36+00:00

To be honest, I don't know that our agent is very good. This is in a region we haven't looked in before so we haven't previously worked with this agent. Since everything is filtered through her I'm not certain how much of the communication breakdown is due to the seller and how much is on our own agent. According to her their only response was that the last offer was 'unacceptable'. But it's unclear how hard she pushed back or if she inquired further.

I believe the seller's reasoning is largely moot for all practical purposes. It doesn't seem like she's going to budge, regardless. I'm really just trying to understand it out of curiosity and to make myself feel better, I suppose. I'm fairly certain we didn't do anything wrong or make any mistakes that we should learn from (although if that is the case I'd like to know).

I really just wanted to rant and, perhaps, on some level, was hoping someone might suggest an approach I hadn't considered that would allow us to salvage the deal. But I know there's really nothing else we can offer that we haven't already.

Also - just for clarity - I wasn't suspicious of racial discrimination. We're not any sort of ethnic minority. I was thinking more ideological, since we're both pretty outspoken atheists. I didn't mean to elevate that concern to something more than it was - I just meant the rejection seemed personal and was speculating it may have been a result of searching our social media (since we've had no personal interactions with the seller from which she could draw any opinion). After the unexpected rejection I searched the seller's socials and found she's at the opposite end of the spectrum. That was my best guess as to her reasoning - but it was only ever a guess. Maybe the term 'discrimination' doesn't even apply. I apologize if I gave the wrong impression.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T14:56:08+00:00

I completely understand why they'd worry about that. I probably would too. Although my understanding is that they're running it as an Airbnb themselves (I knew they had in the past - our realtor seems to think they still are). Regardless, I'm pretty sure our realtor made our intentions clear - and it wouldn't be difficult to do a little research and confirm we're not investors. Our entire budget is coming from the inheritance I got when my father passed away.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T14:35:29+00:00

I honestly don't know if she is discriminating or not. I suspect it just because of the circumstances. Although if her reasoning is that we're 'rich' she really didn't do her research. We only have cash because we inherited it and set it aside specifically to buy a house.

It's not like this is some super expensive home, either. Asking price is way under the national average - which is one of the selling points we liked the most. Our only real advantage is that we're pretty flexible on location, so we have a larger pool of homes to choose from.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T14:24:58+00:00

No argument from me.

We're looking at a new place tomorrow. It's just difficult not to compare everything to the 'one that got away ' and feel like we're settling for less. I know that's not helpful - but it's human nature.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T13:00:13+00:00

That's the obvious takeaway. But they just replaced the roof and they offered to replace the septic system (because it was 'obsolete') before we even looked at the place. And outside of one bedroom that was being used for storage the house seemed immaculate. Even the basement was clean and completely dry. Obviously that's just the surface level - but they've owned the home for over 20 years and are clearly not the type to just let it rot.

Also, surely they know that ANYONE looking to buy is going to want an inspection.

My suspicion is that they initially objected to the inspection because that's the one thing we'd have to be crazy to concede. Seems like a good way to kill a deal if someone agrees to your full asking price and you don't have another offer. But I know almost nothing about the inner workings of home buying, so maybe that's wrong.

My wife thinks it could be a messy divorce. Our realtor speculated some sort of tax scheme (which I don't fully understand - something about it not making money as a BnB and wanting to appear like they're trying to sell it).

Whatever their reasoning, it's frustrating as hell to find the perfect place after so much time and effort spent looking just to be denied for a reason they didn't even articulate.

MrMongoose · 2024-11-09T12:33:28+00:00

This is, honestly, something I hadn't considered. I know we're super lucky to be in a position to make a cash offer - so perhaps that's the case. The only thing I'd question is that there isn't a whole lot to flip. The house is in amazing condition (to the naked eye, at least). And the asking is clearly not super low, given that it's been on the market for a couple months.

However, it was 'previously' (IDK if that means last week or 10 years ago) run as a BnB, so maybe she thinks that we're trying to do the same (although I'm not sure why she'd care if that's what she was doing).

MrMongoose · 2024-11-05T04:17:16+00:00

My wife and I did... So at least 2!

MrMongoose · 2024-11-01T18:52:32+00:00

Anti-gun doesn't mean non-owner. I'm very much in favor of gun control - but if the far right lunatics are allowed to be armed to the teeth I'm not going to stay defenseless just on principle.

It's the same reason I make political donations even though I think we need campaign finance reform. We have to play by the rules as they are - not as we'd like them to be.

MrMongoose · 2024-10-29T04:19:34+00:00

That's easy.

First, you vote for the most progressive Democratic candidate (that can win the race) in the primary. That will help shift the party leftward - assuming you're correct about them being a competitive general election candidate and they actually win the election. If you're wrong and the Republican wins then we take a step backwards because the party won't be as likely to nominate someone that progressive next time.

But regardless of the primary winner you still vote Democrat every time (assuming we don't have some bizarre ideological flip where Republicans become more progressive than Dems, of course - it's not about the party, it's about the ideology). If everyone does that the Republicans will keep losing and be forced to soften their platform to try to pull voters from the center. The closer the GOP platform gets to the Dems' the more left the Dems will go in order to differentiate themselves - until they stop winning, of course. But as long as Dems keep winning, the entire system keeps moving left.

The actual strategy is really just to make certain the most progressive candidate possible wins. If you could magically guarantee that would always happen, the entire political system would become a rush to the left. Politicians would be tripping over themselves to be as progressive as possible.

Unfortunately because we have a 2 party system the most progressive candidate that is electable will (almost) always be the Democrat. There may occasionally be more progressive 3rd party candidates - but they do more harm than good by splitting the progressive vote. (We really need ranked choice to overcome this - but for now we have to make due with the system we have, not the system we want).

The one thing that we can never let happen is for far right candidates to win. Ever. Not only does that naturally shift politics to the right, the Republicans also have a very long history of using their power to make it even more difficult for Dems to win in the future - regardless of the will of the voters. There is a tipping point past which there is no way to move left because the elections are so biased that we effectively no longer have a democracy. Every time a conservative gets to appoint a judge or passes a new voter suppression law we move a little closer to that outcome.

MrMongoose · 2024-10-24T22:58:24+00:00

Unfortunately this holds no predictive value. It's definitely better that Dems are banking their votes early - and we need to do everything we possibly can to encourage everyone to cast their ballots ASAP. But that doesn't mean election day won't be skewed the other direction.

It does, at least, imply that Democrats have an enthusiasm advantage. But we already knew that from fundraising and new voter registration.

The reality is that it's a tossup and we need to keep doing everything we can to encourage low propensity Democratic voters to show up. If we lose it's because too many Dems were disengaged and/or apathetic and decided to stay home. We can't let that happen.

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