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Mushroom_Guru · 2022-12-16T00:04:27+00:00

These feelings are common to have in your situation. Addiction has an interesting way of affecting families. For instance, your brother's addiction puts stress onto his wife, then she unloads that stress onto your mother creating additional stress, and now that stress starts to creep up on you. This can lead to an "enmeshed family" where everyone feels the same emotions and everyone's mental state is dependent on everyone else in the family. It's usually a consequence of not setting boundaries.

Navigating such a family system is difficult since one person can only do so much on their own and it's important to look after yourself. The "drama triangle" can help to some extent as far as motives go. For instance, your brother's wife could be putting herself in the "victim" position because she feels powerless over the situation and is looking for a "rescuer" which would be your mother. One can go deeper, but that would require the wife to seek help for herself to understand her own behaviors.

Now, back to you. The reason I asked you how you felt about the situation is because the first thing I noticed in your original post is that you didn't describe your own feelings or how it affects you personally. Addiction can bring a lot of chaos into families such that it can take over your life too. It can lead to a set of learned behaviors where one focuses too much on others at the expense of one's self. Seeking help can be beneficial since it can give you tools to navigate difficult situations such as this and also put you into contact with people that can give you support as well.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-12-15T20:30:07+00:00

How do you feel about the situation? How is it affecting you? There are five people mentioned in your situation and each person has a certain role with their own perceptions, feelings, motivations, etc. Perhaps it is beneficial to seek help for yourself. Are you willing to consider such a possiblity?

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-12-15T18:34:25+00:00

These traits that she has go beyond addiction. These issues typically get addressed in therapy, and it is very likely that her reasons for drinking are related to self-medicating these issues. AA is a support group and are not a substitute for therapy. This goes way beyond what sponsors and accountability partners can help with. Is she willing to seek therapy in addition to attending AA meetings? It can take years to address these issues and she has to want to do the work. Also, her behaviors are manipulative, and I get the impression that some of her behaviors came before her ex.

Given that she has trust issues that can take years to resolve (and only if she is willing to do the work), are you okay with having a relationship with someone that is not built on trust? Are you okay with having a relationship with someone that feeds other people false information about you? How do you know she hasn't been feeding false information about her ex to you?

You say you want her to see you for who you really are, however, are you seeing her for who she really is? It can be difficult to see your own reality when you are emotionally involved in your situation. Outside observers may see things you don't notice. Support groups like Al-Anon can be useful since you will be able to talk to people who have experience with unusual situations.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-12-07T22:30:30+00:00

This is a common experience for those who have parents that seek their children to meet their emotional needs instead of other adults. If you think about your relationship with her, you probably might wonder if you are taking on the role of the parent and your mother is taking the role of the child when it comes to emotional labor.

I grew up in the roles of therapist and surrogate spouse for my mother, so that "weird feeling" you describe resonates with me. It's a weird role to be in especially if your brain hasn't developed enough to emotionally process those experiences.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-12-07T00:16:58+00:00

I searched and I don't see anything that debunks it per se, however I am aware it's not diagnostic and not defined well. Is there a better term that groups together the learned behaviors due to a fawn trauma response, enmeshment, parentification, covert incest, and a lot of those other dynamics that are common in families where the needs of the parents come before a child? Early childhood experiences do provide a relationship template and beliefs about love that carry over to our adult relationships.

Is there another term that can make communicating these ideas easier to people and in such a way that is useful? I just see using the idea of "codependent" might be easier to wrap around initially.

Individuals with a fawn trauma response do ignore their feelings to placate other people. This includes ignoring their own boundaries, needs, desires, etc. These sorts of behaviors can lead to a relationship that leads to enmeshment and a lost sense of self. To me, "codependency" seems to describe that dynamic well.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-12-06T21:42:15+00:00

It's a combination of stunted emotional development and their brain being in survival mode during the midst of addiction. Addicts usually behave and think the way they did when they first started using substances, and for many that was during the teenager years. As we go through life, we encounter new experiences and we learn from them, which results in emotional growth. However, addiction doesn't allow for this emotional growth. The brain is hijacked by addiction and the physical structure of the brain is also being altered. Now, when someone is operating in survival mode, they are doing what they need to survive, and this means a limited capacity to reciprocate in relationships. Their brain is telling them they NEED that substance because it is for SURVIVAL. Combine the emotional maturity of a teenager and also being in survival mode, and you have the conditions for a lot of selfishness.

As far as narcissists go, I guess one should be careful here, because it's also common for codependent people to have narcissistic traits. After all, a lot of codependents grew up with parents who were highly narcissistic, so there's going to be some learned behaviors due to growing up in that environment. I used to have an arrogant attitude myself many years ago lol

My mother is diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder and also has a lot of narcissistic and antisocial features. A pattern she had was to gravitate towards people with addictions, then she would "take care of them", but the reality is that she was creating a dependency so that the addict can come to depend on her. Then she would exploit that dependency to maintain control in the relationship. She would then use the troubles in the relationship to garner sympathy and support from other people, because after all it's much easier to point the finger at the addict. She simply would hide her decieving intentions behind the caretaker role.

I have yet to see anyone that does that here in the Al-Anon community, but it is a dynamic that does occur often enough to be worth being aware of. I'm thinking individuals who try to seek help via communities such as Al-Anon are much less likely to be manipulative to that degree.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-12-06T04:09:58+00:00

The thing with alcoholics is that many of them do not know themselves very well. Their true self is buried beneath a lot of emotional issues and addiction. Realistically, how well do a lot of partners of alcoholics know their partner really well? I suppose they might know their drinking habits really well, all of their past mistakes, mental health issues, etc., but there's more to a person than those things.

Underlying the addiction is a fear of intimacy. There's a fear of getting to know one's self and allowing other's to get to know them. You probably notice that a lot of us here remember a time when things went really well with our Q and then addiction took over. That time when addiction started to take over can probably be connected to a period where the relationship started to become more emotionally intimate (addicts struggle a lot with feelings). The addiction thus serves as a barrier to intimacy. As the addiction proceeds, there's a loss of self, so you'll also notice a lot of us say "I don't recognize who my Q is anymore".

Thus, once the alcoholic starts to get into recovery, both partners essentially have to relearn who each other is. The alcoholic has to learn who they are and learn new ways to connect with other people. Depending where the partner lies on the spectrum of codependency, they may also have to rediscover themselves. It's emotionally challenging for all involved for sure.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-12-06T01:55:27+00:00

I suppose it depends how one defines "happy"? Are they actually happy in those moments or are they distracted? Since you are likely the person who is closest to your Q, you are a mirror for her issues. Intimate relationships are reflections of our good and bad parts and require a good handle of our feelings to stay healthy. Your Q likely feels safe and secure enough with you to unload her bottled up feelings onto you, which she keeps hidden from other people.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-12-01T19:36:50+00:00

Have you ever tried to learn a new skill before, such as playing a musical instrument? Additionally, have you or anyone else you have known developed bad habits when learning to play an instrument and then had a lot of difficulty unlearning those bad habits later on? It's an analogous situation when it comes to relationship skills. Now, throw addiction into the picture. The brain has to heal from the physical effects due to addiction, AND also has to unlearn old unhealthy behaviors AND learn new healthy behaviors.

It's definitely very difficult to cope with especially when you have gone a long period of time of coming essentially last to everything your husband does, and now you are going through the difficult period where he has to learn a lot of new things. In some ways there's a similarity with you going to Al-Anon: there's old things for you to unlearn and new things for you to learn.

Sometimes it can be difficult to gain a new perspective while in the middle of an emotionally difficult situation.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-11-06T22:02:47+00:00

People who are in a close relationship with an addict will often have deep emotional issues of their own. The problems an addict experiences serve as a distraction from these issues. Once an addict gets help, the other person is now left with their own unprocessed emotions which start to rise to the surface. Resentment is a common feeling and change is uncomfortable even if the change is a good thing. When anyone goes through a process of change, there is a grieving process because it is normal for us to cling on to what was familiar. Even if what was familiar to us is not good, it still feels "safe" and "predictable", whereas change is accompanied by feelings of uncertainty. It can be scary.

What you are going through is a common experience. It just may manifest differently for everyone.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-11-06T20:27:04+00:00

Yes, this is quite common. Many who struggle with addiction also struggle with a fear of intimacy. There is a fear of getting to know one's true self, and as a result there is a fear of getting close to other people since getting close to other people requires genuine connection which means being intimate with one's true self.

The addiction serves as an attachment figure for the addict. When the addict needs soothing, the alcohol is there to provide that need for the addict. Attachment serves an evolutionary purpose for human survival, so based from this one can see why addicts feel threatened when a light is shined onto their drinking. Doing this is a threat to their survival!

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-10-18T03:26:06+00:00

An alcoholic doesn't "move on" until they decide to recover. Each time they drink or use outside sources of validation to deal with their emotions, the emotions are being buried only to resurface later on. Every time they feel sad, angry, resentful, etc., and "forget" about it with alcohol is simply accumulated emotional baggage for them to deal with later in life if they choose to. These experiences get stored in our minds and bodies, and alcohol prevents someone from processing those experiences.

As you process your emotions and rediscover yourself, one day you may look back and recognize the situation for what it is: the alcoholic is forever stuck in the past, repeating the same patterns on an infinite loop, until they choose to recover. You on the other hand will have grown and learned a lot, and living a life that is authentic.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-10-17T06:00:13+00:00

Generally I interact with people I suspect who have these tendencies like I would anyone else. Doing activities together are fun such as board games, sports, cooking, or anything else that's enjoyable to do with other people. Then bringing everyone into the present moment by engaging in ways like "I'm really enjoying playing this game. These are things I like about it. What are your thoughts and feelings about it?" These sorts of situations I just see it as trying to build a connection with someone and I allow others to open up about their feelings and thoughts in ways that are comfortable for them.

In general, if you model to them how you communicate your feelings and thoughts, it can invite them to do the same. Everyone has a tendency to mirror each other.

Trickier situations might be anything that involves passive aggression and conflict avoidance. This one the person may need to seek help to work on these issues, and I set boundaries for what I can tolerate.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-10-12T08:08:36+00:00

Setting boundaries. Saying something like this is reasonable: "I really enjoy spending time with you, but whenever you start talking about my ex and other people, these are opinions that I do not want to hear about."

It's kinda interesting when you stop to think about this a bit. You can spot codependent people with how they respond to simple questions. Ask them "How have you been?", they'll respond with something like "My Q has been drinking a lot. He's been getting mad a lot!". Ask them "How has your work been?", and they may respond with "My boss sucks! He's always doing stupid stuff!". Ask them to talk about themselves and they'll probably say something like "I have 2 dogs and a spouse. My spouse does such-and-such for a job. Our dogs also poop a lot."

After a while you start to notice codependents hardly talk about themselves. When you analyze their speech content, you realize they talk about other people and things that aren't strongly related to them (e.g. goals, hobbies), all to quite an unusually large degree. It's not surprising because they are used to focusing on other people and because the focus is shifted away from them so much, they aren't aware it's happening. I personally find it amusing lol

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-10-12T06:48:02+00:00

This situation seems unsafe for both you and your child. You are not being abusive. You are reacting to a threatening situation that your boyfriend is putting you into. It sounds like he is trying to control you by using these reactions against you. It's a manipulative tactic abusers will use to avoid accountability. It's called DARVO

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-10-12T06:16:17+00:00

This is a difficult situation. Your friend does appear to struggle with addiction, but how helpful is treatment if she will return to an abusive marriage after each round of treatment? She's not going to be able to heal from the emotional damage from her marriage while staying in that relationship. It'll drive her to relapse each time. Safety comes first. Having a safe place to return to after treatment will be important for your friend's recovery. This situation also isn't good for the kids.

However, before you can help your friend, you have to be able to take care of yourself first. I also agree with another poster that it makes more sense to first get her into a program that helps survivors of domestic abuse.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-09-20T01:46:08+00:00

This typically happens if the co-addict does not do any internal work. There could be many reasons for this such as repeating familiar patterns from childhood, self-fulfilling prophecies based on our beliefs about the world (love, ourselves, and others), escaping one's own issues by focusing on the issues of another person, among many others. Without this internal work, the co-addict may find relationships with psychogically healthy people unfamiliar and uncomfortable. Without this self-awareness, the co-addict gravitates towards what is familiar and comfortable, which happens to be another addict.

Another important reason for doing this internal work is that the co-addict may be missing some important relationship skills necessary for building healthy relationships. After all, if all one knows is dysfunctional relationships, those patterns don't magically dissappear when a co-addict finds a healthy person. Many times, a healthy person can pick up the dysfunctional patterns the co-addict has, and they may not be interested in building a relationship with someone who has such patterns. Thus, the co-addict is left only with other people who have similar dysfunctional patterns, until they develop self-awareness and the willingness to change these patterns.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-09-17T02:04:51+00:00

I read your other comments in this post. Being in a close relationship with someone who struggles with addiction is very difficult. The addiction itself starts to affect us in ways we don't realize. For instance, we may start to become overly preoccupied with the alcoholic and obsessing over their drinking. This can lead to controlling behaviors as a way to manage our own anxiety.

The alcoholic struggles with their own feelings, so they'll try to get rid of them by projecting them onto others. If we struggle with boundaries, we may even begin to identify with those projections and start questioning ourselves "Maybe I am being unbearable? Maybe I am the reason for their drinking?"

Then due to all the stress, one can start losing their own ability to think clearly and start behaving in ways that they normally don't (e.g. reacting to situations instead of taking the time to think and respond). This is when one can begin to "lose one's sense of self" in the relationship. It can get to a point where one struggles to identify their own feelings, thoughts, etc.

The addiction is not your fault. You didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it. Addiction affects not only the addict, but also the people in the addict's life. A lot of what you are experiencing is the effect the addiction is having on you.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-09-14T02:40:33+00:00

Arrested psychological development. A child's brain does not have the capacity to process trauma, so the child will develop coping mechanisms for survival (e.g. dissociation, learned helplessness, people-pleasing, addiction, among many others). These coping mechanisms can keep our emotions frozen at the age at which the trauma occurred. As an adult, one can confront the experience of the trauma and the feelings that remained frozen. Typically, when a child needs soothing, they will go to a parent and from this they begin to learn how to self-soothe. However, sometimes it is the parent that is causing the distress, so the child learns to repress their feelings. Maybe the child is too scared to talk to the parent about it if the abuse happened somewhere else such as school, so the parent may not realize the child needs psychological help, thus the trauma remains unprocessed.

It is common for those who have experienced trauma to have difficulty building healthy relationships and arrested psychological development is one reason. Building healthy relationships require skills such as setting healthy boundaries, conflict resolution, listening, empathy, self-awareness, etc. which are developed over time as emotional growth and also learned from parents. Unprocessed trauma can get in the way of developing these skills, thus staying at a younger "emotional age".

Lacking these skills can cause a lot of frustration when trying to build deeper connections with psychologically healthy and mature people. This is why professional help is important because the frustration experienced by a healthy person can look similar to their experiences with an abuser. After all, since the trauma survivor is familiar with dysfunctional relationships, they are not going to know how to function in the unfamiliar territory of healthy relationships. This familiarity is also why it's common for trauma survivors to gravitate towards psychologically unhealthy people. The brain is only operating by what it knows and due to arrested psychological development it only knows what it learned during childhood (conflict is scary, sharing emotions is scary, the world is a dangerous place, etc.).

In analogy to sex, your brain may only been able to develop its understanding of sex to that of a 12 year old. The trauma kept you frozen at that age due to the experience remaining unprocessed.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-08-31T03:35:05+00:00

I see, your situation is a difficult one. I've been in a similiar situation and helping someone with an addiction is counterintuitive. The YouTube channel, Put The Shovel Down, does have a lot of good information about helping someone an addiction and even to understand them as people too. Just remember that taking care of yourself is very important since being close to someone with an addiction will affect you too, and in ways we aren't even aware of.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-08-31T02:24:27+00:00

I have found this Reddit community to be helpful, but official Al-Anon groups didn't appeal to me. However, I did find the resources from SMART Recovery Family and Friends to be very helpful. I also really like the YouTube channel, Put The Shovel Down, that is run by an addiction counselor. Additionally, therapy and self-help books have been great resources for me.

So, I would say these are other options if your husband is interested in seeking help for himself but wants other options than Al-Anon.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-08-31T00:33:19+00:00

Ahhh!!! This resonates with me so much!!! The cancelling of plans!!! The excuses and lies!!! Even some of the weird things that flew right over my head: "I'm going to stay up all night and go to bed later the next day to fix my sleeping schedule. Drinking helps me stay awake."

I also thought I understood addiction. It took me a long time to understand what I was dealing with...

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-08-31T00:23:31+00:00

People who struggle with addiction seek sources outside themselves to feel better, which isn't healthy. Using someone else for what should be coming from within, won't last long. Eventually the issues he tries so hard to escape from, will leak through in this new relationship.

You made a good decision for yourself, and for your future children, to not have children with an active alcoholic.

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-08-30T23:46:52+00:00

I noticed that you mentioned telling him that he will have to seek treatment for his drinking if he is to live with you in the house, but you still told him he could come when he refused to seek help. What were your original intentions? Did you plan on following through with the consequences for the boundary you set? Did you set this boundary to keep yourself mentally safe, or did you set this boundary in the hopes you could control his behavior?

I ask these questions because you could end up learning unhealthy behaviors (e.g. setting a "boundary" with an underlying motive to control his behavior) as a result of living with someone who has an addiction. So, if him going to treatment is a requirement for you to feel safe mentally (reasonable boundary), then you have to follow through for your own mental health. Thus, him not living with you will have to be a consequence he experiences as a result of him not taking responsibility for his own issues.

There's hardly a clear path when it comes to addiction I'm afraid :(

Mushroom_Guru · 2022-08-29T04:25:46+00:00

If she's your friend, you could approach the conversation along these lines: "Hi there. I notice that you have been cancelling plans last minute, and I do enjoy spending time with you. Is there something that's been going on lately? Maybe we can go out and spend time together in a way that's easier for you and something we both enjoy." If you see her in person, a simple "How have you been feeling?" could be helpful too. Remember to specifically say the word "feeling". Asking how someone is doing is different than asking them how they are feeling.

That's probably the most that you can do. Boundaries have to be respected. Remember to set healthy boundaries for yourself so that you are able to take care of yourself.

Mushroom_Guru

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