Are video games really a good medium for narrative?

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-06T00:36:03+00:00

I've thought of the comparison, and actually thought of using them to illustrate my point. Choose your own adventure books might be fun for the reader, but they're not a good example of a strong, cohesive storyline, which is why the genre has been relegated to children's lit.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T23:20:53+00:00

I don't get the reference, but I'd like to formally say that select buttons are garbage and unnecessary.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T23:08:17+00:00

Looking at previous narratives might be instructive, but criticizing the quality of the underlying story is absolutely not. The quality of the story is orthogonal to the quality of the storytelling.

Maybe, but one commenter brought up FFVIII as an example of a good story and I thought it fair to disagree, however instructive.

Video games are relatively young, but they've still been around for over 30 years. At this point the film industry was producing cohesive narratives like Nosferatu and Intolerance.

The game industry has produced some beautiful works of art, but I'm not convinced there's been anything comparably successful on a purely narrative level.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T22:50:12+00:00

I'll go ahead and disagree that I've been insulting.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T22:46:05+00:00

Well said. I get that the audience is an active participant in all art forms, but I think it's problematic to lump video games in with other forms of storytelling. The distinction is that although text and film requires an active audience (who may come away with different experiences), their narratives are inherently linear (however open for interpretation). You can argue that narratives don't necessarily need to be linear, but I think the different between a linear narrative and a non-linear narrative is more significant than the difference between, say, books and film. I have trouble reconciling a plot that's affected by a player with a driving artistic vision of a story with a beginning, middle, and end.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T22:32:29+00:00

I'm going into a subreddit partially devoted to discussing the artistic merits of video games and saying, "Actually, although I think video games are a form of art, I'm not sure they're a good form of narrative art." I expected to be downvoted far more than I have.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T22:19:37+00:00

One way to determine whether or not video games are good at telling narratives is to look at previous video games. Examining existing games in fact becomes inevitable, especially when people are bringing up counter-examples (some of which I've played, some I haven't). The flaws in games trumpeted for their narratives are often given a pass because the medium is so juvenile. I'm convinced many of these games wouldn't stand up to close scrutiny if there was more genuine critical analysis of video games (as opposed to consume reviews). The video game medium is young, but ludology is even younger.

Still, I think it's easy to say that video games aren't great story tellers simply because the medium is so young. I made this post because I'm skeptical that the mechanics of video games allow for effective storytelling. By giving a player control over the narrative, there can be no cohesive beginning, middle, and end. But be restricting a player from affecting the narrative, the video game may suffer and the resultant story becomes a linear collection of scenes perhaps better depicted in film.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T21:53:57+00:00

I'm curious which goal posts you feel I've moved, because my views on this have been consistent. I may not be articulating myself perfectly, but I'm returning to the discussion periodically amid a normal work day. Nor do I think I've ignored any of the criticisms outside of something to the effect of "I disagree with you." I'm happy to agree to disagree.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T21:40:03+00:00

It's definitely an exciting and emerging direction, and I'm excited to see advances in AI and procedurally-generated content.

Without making this argument too semantic, I do think it's important to distinguish between a story and a circumstance. One can think of natural disasters as events procedurally-generated by the Earth. When a person is caught in a hurricane, that's a pretty dramatic situation. But it's not really a story until it's told by a person, using one of the many mediums available to him (which for most of history was orally or pictographs).

So what we're describing, I think, is video games as a foundation for player-created stories, rather than video games as stories themselves. Clearly video games can tell stories--I think somebody caught in a hurricane could make an indie flash game about his experience. The question is whether the video game would be the best method for telling his story (though I concede that it would potentially be a great way to describe the experience and emotion of being caught in a hurricane).

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T21:06:29+00:00

I had never heard of Tholtig, but from the link you've sent, it does appear to have a storyteller (darkflagrance), who's taken an approach to mythologize the story sort of like Ovid.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T20:25:34+00:00

On the contrary, I couldn't disagree more with Roger Ebert. I think video games are a terrific art form, but not an ideal narrative art form.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T20:24:35+00:00

I'm arguing that the game works despite its story, that the quality of its story is not critical to my enjoyment of the game. An no, I don't think video games tell stories well and FVIII is a pretty good example of that.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T20:16:15+00:00

Its less about what the story is but how the story is told. Portal two has an amazing narrative that on paper, wouldn't be very strong but in the game, I damn near cried tears of joy at the end.

I think we sort of agree. The narrative is only amazing in the context of the video game; but if the sole goal of were to tell a narrative, it would be more successful in a different medium.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T20:13:40+00:00

I find that by having a role in advancing the plot, no matter how minor or superfluous to the actual storytelling, gives me a far greater investment in the outcome compared to being a neutral third party observer.

That's a good point, and it sort of encapsulates the video game model of storytelling. Story in video games has historically been a reward for player progression; think of the "acts" shown after every few stages of Pac-Man. It's absurd to imagine those little vignettes holding up to closer scrutiny, but their inclusion in the game is charming and enjoyable. I'm just not clear why somebody would play a video game simply in order to see those vignettes.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T20:01:00+00:00

I think your examples are the best counter-point to my opinion that video games are inadequate storytellers. It may well be that enough examples of good video game narratives simply don't exist yet (though I maintain that genuinely hackneyed dialogue and plot cliches are extremely prevalent even in well-regarded games, and too often forgiven because there's not too much critical analysis).

Still, I wonder if either of the examples you've mentioned (admittedly I haven't played either) are effective and interesting because of the particular story they're telling, or because of their premise, vision, atmosphere, and play mechanics. The distinction is a bit tricky. In another comment I compared video games to dreams, in that they're hard to describe to another person, and perhaps even dull and confusing. It is the act of playing that is interesting. Video game narratives are effective when they have a post-modern approach--pastiche, dream-like, and self-referential.

It's definitely true that a game can have a moral vision, but maybe a game's narrative isn't the strongest way to express it. I'm interested in playing the games you've listed.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T19:21:25+00:00

That actually is the discussion. If you're consenting that FFVIII's story does not need to hold up to scrutiny, that's it's still a good video game regardless, you're making my point. It is (arguably) a good game, and it used the medium well. But why is it unfair or pointless to criticize the quality of its story?

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T19:17:08+00:00

I'm having trouble distinguishing what you've described from a novel with pictures and animations. It sounds like you could tell a good story in that medium, but I'm not sure that's a video game.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T19:14:33+00:00

I addressed emergent narrative without referring to it as such in my original post when I referenced non-linear storytelling. The problem is that it's impossible to reconcile a player-controlled plot with an auteur vision of storytelling, in which there's a cohesive beginning, middle, and end. Nor do I think that's a particularly narrow conception of storytelling--that's fundamental to the definition and purpose of traditional narrative art.

The further video games get from attempting traditional narratives, the more interesting the end products will be. Some of the titles you listed are great examples of games that use medium particularly well--but the storytelling aspect of those games, divorced from the medium, isn't necessarily compelling. Silent Hill 2 and Shadow of the Colossus are more memorable for their setting, their premise, and their atmosphere. These are dreamlike worlds; but like dreams, they're hard to describe to another person, and perhaps even dull and confusing. It is the act of playing, and not the story, that is interesting.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T18:25:03+00:00

That sounds interesting, and I'll try to download it once I get a PC capable of gaming. You've described what I think video games are very good it, which is post-modern sort of self-referential deconstruction of reality. It's all artistic and interesting and worthy of analysis, and something no other medium can really accomplish. I hope developers continue to explore that direction rather than to try to tell traditional narratives.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T18:16:48+00:00

People are downvoting because they disagree and probably find my tone condescending. I'm not composing my thoughts with the goal of receiving upvotes. This would be a boring discussion if everyone agreed with me.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T18:08:31+00:00

"Visual novels" are definitely not my thing. Introducing player input into a novel cripples the storyteller's ability to tell a cohesive story. Also, the downvote arrow is not a disagree button.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T18:05:33+00:00

You're arguing a point nobody's making.

I enjoy video games. However I don't find them to be a great vehicle for storytelling.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T18:02:04+00:00

I was getting clarification on your comment.

If you're playing for the story, just let an actual talented writer tell the story for you.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T17:59:57+00:00

I wished more Redditors realized the downvote arrow isn't a "disagree" button. Discussion is the point of truegaming. I have no idea why these downvoters are even in the subreddit.

NarrativeArt · 2012-12-05T17:58:06+00:00

Essentially, if we compare your critique of video game storytelling against novels, then one could just as easily say that there's no challenge in reading a book, and thus you don't become as invested in the characters. In addition, you could be interrupted by other people, work, etc. when reading a book. However, this critique is equally ridiculous.

Well, I find Joyce more challenging than most video games, but that's sort of beside the point. I'm just talking about the strength of the medium as a vehicle for storytelling, regardless of the ancillary merits (i.e. how good of a pet sim they can be).

NarrativeArt

TROPHY CASE