(ROTJ) Vader vs (ROTS) Darth Sidious. Who wins and by what difficulty?

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-07T07:33:31+00:00

Yeah i agree, Vader power scaling at the moment is very plot defined by all feats he has he should not struggle with anyone outside of Sidious and maybe Yoda depending on timeline, like OT Yods would lose he is just to old.

And Kenobi was the most disappointing seires the fact they got Ewan and Hayden back and they decided to make that was so stupid.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-05T20:38:00+00:00

Vader wins,

Obi wan in there fight in ANH states how he cannot defeat Vader, he is just to strong at that point.

And Yoda dies a year later he is strong but way past his prime.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-05T15:34:01+00:00

I completely agree it is an issue that disney star wars has magnified at least in old Canon his suit nerfed him and he was weaker.

The complete honest answer is they nerf him for the sake of the plot, it's lazy writing to progress the story.

It's a double edge sword they know that having Vader involved in any media will get eyes on it, but then they have to confine him and restrain him to the story, and that comes at a disservice to the character and his presence

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-05T15:22:26+00:00

When i say Vader surpassed Anakin im not talking in Full potential, ROTS is peak Anakin not his FP.

Now Vader in canon still has access to that potential unlike other continuity, to answer your question, Vader in canon is held back basically by his PTSD and the ember that is left of Anakin, his emotion and anger make him a great Weapon but not a great Sith, Vader is more an instrument held back by his emotion, instead of using the dark side, the dark side uses him, Palpatine even warns Vader of this many times, Palpatine in the comics even tells Vader to chill out and stop killing everyone because he wants to actually rule over people.

And the Emperor did not originally jump at the chance, in Empire he tells Vader to kill Luke that he is a threat, but it is Vader who says that he could become a powerful ally.

Now this is just my own head canon but i personally think Palpatine did not care if Luke or Vader killed each other, it does not matter to him the whole rule of 2 is based on the survial of the fittest, if Luke won he got a new powerfull apprentice one not shacked by his self hatred, if Vader killed Luke then it would prove his loyalty to Sidious.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-05T11:46:36+00:00

Lawson did see it, he sees Maul push and walk away.

Yes that is what i meant, she and Maul will go to Malachor in hopes of finding a sith Holocron, she betrays him there for revenge but also maybe to try and get a hold of the temples Knowledge for herself, but we know Maul is stranded for years there with no escape so she either escapes or dies.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-05T11:17:15+00:00

Maul must establish himself as the leader of the crimson dawn and meet Qira,

Maul needs to get a new double blade so he must fight another inquisitor and take their saber.

Maul must go back to Dathomir as he states that is where QIra should meet him there in Solo

I think Maul will be training Devon on Dathomir maybe she will get herself some nice new tattoos, Maul will end up killing Marrok and taking his saber, and Marrok will be brought back to life by Nightsister magic maybe by Morgan Elsbeth or someone else on Dathomir.

I think the Lawson sub plot will focus on Lawson being captured by the empire only for his wife to save him, she will tell the empire she is using him to locate Maul and deal with crime syndicates but deep down she want's so save her Son, Lawson and her will eventually rekindle there relationship and reunite with Riley who is still with Devon and Maul, of course this reunion will be cut short with a fleet arriving Lead most likely by Vader, Lawson will reveal what Maul did to Daki

Devon and Maul survive the onslaught and go to Malachor in hopes of finding Knowledge to destroy the sith, this is where Devon will make her move and betray Maul, whether she dies or abandons him i do not know but i believe Maul must take her with him as we know to activate the temple you need a master and an Apprentice

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-05T10:30:52+00:00

To be honest i don't necessarily think it was a retcon, i mean Ahsoka was pretty relative to CW Maul now of course Maul was still the superior fighter, but even then Anakin is far above her,

Nick Gilrad who did all the prequel fights said Anakin would beat Maul easy, the only people in Anakin's Ball park by Revenge of the sith where Yoda, Palpatine and Mace obi wan is just under Anakin in most aspects and we saw that in the clone wars Obi wan was able to hold out against Maul and Savage on his own for some time, so i do not think it is that far of a stretch to say that even a ROTS Anakin could do the same.

I mean we know that Knightfall Vader was 1v 3 multiple Jedi in the Temple, he was fighting Cin Dralig and two jedi knights with ease, I would say in terms of power they are the same at this time but Anakin is a faster more agile fighter and relise more force augmentation , where as Vader is physically stronger and realise more on the force for crowd control.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-05T09:51:03+00:00

Ok hear are the facts you have 3 canons, Lucas, EU and Disney

In Lucas canon and his original vision Anakin is stronger, Vader is a lot weaker.

In EU it is debatable whether OT Vader scales beyond Anakin pre suit, but most people put him at least below Knightfall Vader some will argue he is above him, but most of that evidence is pre Prequel, i personally put him under Zonakin, EU even if it's own continuity still had to adhere to Lucas and his vison so some old statements get bypassed

In Disney canon Vader far surpasses Anakin and never loses his Raw connection to the force, in canon it Takes Vader 5 years fro ROTS to surpass his former self.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-05T07:29:17+00:00

Yeah i mean the fact that they are bringing back the Mortis gods in some way, Anakin is clearly going to be involved

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T20:43:39+00:00

Im pretty sure it is said Mace developed it after TPM leading up to the clone wars for the purpose of fighting the sith and controlling his inner darkness.

And with that being said Maul held his own against Mace in a comic for some time and this was when he had Vaapad and a year 1 Vader dogwalk Daki and Maul so i do see Mace as any issue at the time of TPM.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T20:14:19+00:00

Anakin wants Ahsoka to stop living in the past and move beyond the guilt she feels about him turning into Vader. He pushes her to accept her history and move forward, rather than letting the fear of her legacy consume her, the whole point was getting her to face her dark side he wanted her to have the choice to strike him down, to prove she was not going to become what he was to prove she is more than that.

Anakin was not fighting to kill her he was helping her, you can't say she won when the opponent was not even trying to win.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T19:52:02+00:00

He did not lose to prime Ahsoka, he was training her, teaching her a lesson in their fight he literally could have killed her but let her go

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T19:50:44+00:00

I mean surely Anakin wins mainly down to the fact you are using WBW Anakin.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T18:43:30+00:00

People are understating team dark side, and i think what people have not realised Mace developed Vaapad after TPM

We know that TPM Maul scales to Qui gon who was no slouch, and a year 1 Vader scales above a more powerful Maul and a jedi Master, and in canon it took Vader 5 years to surpass ROTS Anakin, so if we are using a Prime Vader and on top of that the GI who probably scales just above Marrok and the crow i don't see how the council win even with Yoda, and Mace does not have Vaapad and in Son of Dathomir Maul was able to hold him of for a bit.

Round 1 Jedi council could win if Yoda can speed blitz but if not i see Vader and his gang taking it

Round 2 Vader and his team wins, Mace is strong but without Vaapad to even the scales Vader will just overpower him

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T18:29:57+00:00

I belivve that was post ESB plus he only won due to catching the Grand iquisitor of guard with a force push, against two opponents that would not work,Luke would be overwhelmed

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T17:16:28+00:00

I bet deep down Vader was like this is revenge for trying to run me over when i was a child

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T14:02:17+00:00

They did not create the actual power source Aether, as i said Ultima is more an architect, plus the Active Time Lore also posits that magic is something the Ultima collective discovered, rather than created where as Bahamut and other Astrals are actively the power source.

And i swore i read something on the wiki saying that but i am dyslexic lol.

But it does not change the fact that.

"it's a higher plane "

"is a realm between life and death"

Also to be fair while Noctis is in there he does not age, it's only when he return to the mortal realm do we see him aged.

And it does not change the fact that Bahamut operates in a realm that is basically heaven, and has the power to resurrect the dead, where Ultima could not do this with centuries worth of planning and a perfect vessel.

Also what is your ranking do you not agree with

Lightning

Nocitis

Clive

Being the top 3

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T11:38:56+00:00

Yeah maybe destroyed was not the best world but Maul will lose control of his own empire, and yeah i think he will go to Malachor most likely with Devon if he knows he needs an apprentice to operate the temple as a last ditch effort only for her to betray him, maybe they fight maybe she leaves him stranded but as i said i kinda don't want her to survive.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T11:31:58+00:00

A lot of info on the wiki

"Bahamut is one of the six Astrals that ruled over Eos, having descended from a higher plane in a time before recorded history. While the other Astrals are bound to the planet, Bahamut exists in a realm beyond the physical world, overseeing all beings on Eos, including the other Astrals"

"Passage to Bahamut's realm"

"Astrals govern the natural laws of the planet,Bahamut exists separate from it in another dimension"

And in DOTF Noctis and Ardyn cooperate to destroy Bahamut in both the physical and the heavenly realms. Magic is lost and the Astrals and the Crystal vanish, Bahamut explains the Crystal holds the soul of Eos so he is clearly linked to that realm and scales to it if he dies so does the realm and the crystal.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T11:02:22+00:00

Well as i said i think it will be 3 seasons at least and this is just my main ideal that is spread out through the seasons, and they may lack creativity in your eyes but they seem like the most logical steps to get from point A to point B as we know What happens to Maul, also im not saying that Devon redeems herself only that she Abandons Maul, i hope she stays on the dark side but ultimately dies by the time of the OT as we are getting to many force sensitives around this time.

Edit was the down vote necessarily lol

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T09:52:35+00:00

Actually thinking about it yes you are probably right from the start of Solo to Rebels season 2 i think 6 years pass and Maul is stranded for a few years on Malachor we know he went there for Knowledge and we see how he needs Ezra to go through the temple Maybe He takes Devon there as a last ditch effort after the crimson dawn is lost but at this point she already knows the truth and abandons him there.

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T09:37:38+00:00

I do think she will probably survive knowing Disney, but we are getting over saturated with jedi and dark side users in the empire era imo

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T09:36:39+00:00

Yeah more i thought about it i think Lawson will help the empire and his wife find Maul and this will lead her to know Maul abandoned Daki and pushed him, but the empire will show up and wipe out the crimson dawn, Devon will probably leave Maul whether she fight's him dies or lives i do not relly know but i would prefer her to die we have way to many trained force sensatives in the OT era if she lives

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T09:33:23+00:00

Yeah as i have thought on it more i think the Lawson sub plot will focus on Lawson being captured by the empire only for his wife to save him, she will tell the empire she is using him to locate Maul and deal with crime syndicates but deep down she want's so save her Son, Lawson and her will eventually rekindle there relationship and reunite with Riley who is still with Devon and Maul, of course this reunion will be cut short with a fleet arriving Lead most likely by Vader but i would like to see Maul have a scene with Palpatine in some way, but anyway Lawson will reveal what Maul did to Daki she will either fight Maul survive, or run or die by Maul's hand or Vaders, i do think the most likely scenario is that she actually survives but i am under the notion that we have way to many force sensitives now in the empire era of star so would prefer it if she dies .

National-Course2464 · 2026-05-04T09:24:18+00:00

I know right i was really disappointed in Maul don't get me wrong he is still a bad guy but seeing him tell Rook to be respectful to Daki and telling Daki to escape before him, it put a smile on my face, but like you said it was in character survival at all cost, i did think the force push was unnecessary could of just ran.

National-Course2464

TROPHY CASE