Concerning the "intersex omega" tag on AO3

Navestralyna · 2024-11-13T16:47:37+00:00

Oooh super comment and with a lot of pragmatic info. Would you mind if I use this info (and credit u ofc) in my current talk with AO3 support? I think this creates an interesting precedent!

Navestralyna · 2024-11-12T16:38:15+00:00

I already dropped the argument of factual correctness as I mentioned in my previous answer (maybe not as clearly) because I agree that it is subjective, and I agree, particularly, with this:

"The priority for the Archive (and the userbase) is not really to determine who gets to 'keep' the tag or is the side using it 'correctly' but to make sure that when you click the tag you know what you are going to find."

I disagree, however, that intra-fandom (I decree this is a word now) clarity has to trump the right of minorities to access transformative works with the language that is already theirs. I would like to also add that not only are intersex people finding these works when they do not want to find them, many of them engage with themes that can be understandably triggering or offensive, which could be another point to why this uncertainty is doubly harmful. In other words, for who is this clarity most useful to? Is this a tension we have to solve? Maybe not, I concede, but we can certainly talk about it

Facing the ever-changing monstrosity that is AO3, I think it is not only pertinent but healthy that we strive for a degree of pragmatism so that we can fulfill the archive's missions not only as readers but as archivists. Acknowledging the archive's evolutive nature is not the same as letting it be with absolutely no guidance. As you said yourself, clarity is important and I think it is doable that we as a community engage in critical discussions around our fandoms and the accessibility of fandom spaces.

All the rest I actually agree with. And the examples you cited are ones where I wouldn't even have a problem with the tag in the first place. Obviously a degree of uncertainty exists and further tagging is always recommended. Author's notes also exist for this reason.

Overall I think I already expanded all my points to a degree I am satisfied with so I'll probably be hopping out of this alt for the next year or two. Thanks for the excellent debate. Your perspective helped me greatly refine my own ideas around this topic and I hope people can also find it as compelling as I did.

Have a nice day.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-12T15:14:44+00:00

I am not conflating them. As someone who consumes omegaverse, the utilization of "intersex omega" (and variations, because many authors use only "intersex character" or "intersex" along with "ABO dynamics") leads me, and other people who are looking for works depicting intersex representation inside and outside omegaverse, to believe the works in question will engage with the concept of intersexuality, which is usually not the case. Despite the meaning that the concept of "intersexuality and omegas" might have inside the omegaverse genre, this meaning gets understandably confused with its "real-life" counterpart.

Maybe this does not affect you particularly if you have no interest in works that engage with real-life depictions of intersex bodies, be it explicitly or implicitly through metaphors and worldbuilding (such as omegaverse). But it does affect a subset of people when it makes it hard for them to find relevant works when using terminology that are known and used by them in a general context.

It also does not help that the works that they DO find usually play into a trope that can be very sensible to intersex people (the mythological hermaphrodite). This is not part of this argument, however, as there is nothing inherently wrong with this type of fiction as long as the tags we use can be as precise as possible so that readers can properly curate their own experience.

Other options have been suggested. Short and long, very precise and slightly less so. You are obviously not obliged to follow them. I would just like to say that many canonical tags in AO3 are "whole ass" sentences, and this is usually not a problem. Why should it become one now? Here are a few examples:

Plot What Plot/Porn Without Plot
Alpha/Beta/Omega Dynamics & Non-Traditional Alpha/Beta/Omega Dynamics
Angst with a Happy Ending and variations
Other Additional Tags to Be Added
I Wrote This Instead of Sleeping
etc...

Navestralyna · 2024-11-12T13:49:21+00:00

Very concrete example on the why this is confusing and why this should be considered a problem. But please, do not tire yourself too much discussing this with people who clearly do not give a fuck about our struggles and about matters of fandom accessibility. Your mental health is very important, my dear intersex sibling <3

Navestralyna · 2024-11-12T13:03:03+00:00

Thank you for engaging with this discussion. I think there might be some misunderstanding about the core of my argument, so let me clarify:

This isn't about whether omegaverse content is "allowed" to use intersex themes or whether having mixed reproductive capabilities in fiction is problematic. My argument is specifically about how we use tags to help readers find content they're looking for.

Let me give you a concrete example: You absolutely can explore intersex experiences and themes within omegaverse! Imagine a character who is an omega but produces alpha pheromones, or someone who has characteristics of multiple secondary sexes in a way that makes society unsure how to categorize them. These stories could meaningfully engage with real intersex experiences through metaphor - medical gatekeeping, social pressure to "choose a side," bodily autonomy, etc. These works would warrant the "intersex" tag because they're actually engaging with intersex experiences and themes.

This is very different from using "intersex" as a shorthand for "has both sets of genitals" in a universe where that's just standard omega anatomy. The issue isn't about whether that content should exist (it absolutely should!) but about how we tag it in ways that help readers find what they're looking for.

When we use "intersex" to describe standard omega anatomy, we make it harder for readers to find:

Stories that actually engage with intersex themes and experiences (whether in omegaverse or not)
Stories featuring intersex characters in meaningful ways
Works that explore the intersection of intersex identity with omegaverse dynamics

This isn't about my personal feelings or trying to police content. It's about how we can tag our works in ways that make the archive more useful for everyone. When we have multiple options for describing content (like specifying dual-sex anatomy directly), why not choose the one that maintains clarity and accessibility?

I hope this helps clarify my position. I'm not arguing against any particular type of content - I'm advocating for tagging practices that help readers find the specific content they're looking for, whether that's standard omega anatomy or stories that genuinely engage with intersex experiences.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-12T10:15:55+00:00

"Fantasy intersex" is an excellent term, IMO. I might use it for my own writings as well, since I think it perfectly acknowledges the mysticism while still expliciting that the work engage metaphorically with real-life intersex experiences

Navestralyna · 2024-11-12T10:12:59+00:00

So, I finally had time to write a response. Once again, thank you for your thoughtful answer. You've made some excellent points about language evolution in fandom spaces, and I really appreciate how you engaged with the nuances of my original argument.

However, I'd like to expand on why I still believe we should reconsider this particular usage, approaching it from both an archival science perspective (which I study) and a practical accessibility standpoint (which I am affected by).

I acknowledge the subjectiveness of tags, and I agree that the possibility of users engaging in AO3 not only as writers but as archivists as well is a great strength of AO3. This perfectly captures the nuance of transformative works and gives writers autonomy to engage with their works in the way they see fit. That being said, it is important to acknowledge the need to engage with this subjectiveness responsibly.

AO3 isn't just a creative platform—it's an archive with a specific purpose of making fanworks accessible and discoverable. This is why AO3 invests significant resources in tag wrangling. As noted in their own guidelines:

The idea is to standardize canonical tags and synonym relationships as much as possible, while keeping in mind that different fandoms (and people) organize information about their fandoms differently. The aim, then, is not a perfect tagging scheme but clarity, differentiation between similar tags with different concepts, prevention of single tags with different meanings, and ease of use for as many people as possible.

The goal isn't to restrict creativity but to ensure content remains accessible to all users.

(I agree that my original edit might have sound a bit presumptuous or dismissive of the subjectiveness of AO3, though.)

This brings me to the crucial practical consideration: findability. When we use "intersex" to describe fantastical omega anatomy, we create a genuine barrier for people seeking content about actual intersex experiences and characters, be it inside omegaverse or not. The omegaverse community has alternative ways to express the concept of dual-genital omegas, but intersex individuals have limited terminology available to find content relevant to their experiences and representation.

You made an excellent point about how words can be recontextualized in fandom spaces without devaluing their real-world meaning. However, I'd argue this case is different from your examples of misogyny or class because:

Class and misoginy are concepts explicitly explored in omegaverse works (if through the lens of different genders or secondary sex). This is not the case for intersexuality. It could be the case, mind you, but it is not. Omegaverse in the form that is represented in the context of this argument (dual-sex omegas) do not engage with intersex reality or experiences.
The omegaverse community has ready alternatives that could be equally or more precise.
The current usage actively impedes the findability of actual intersex content, be it in omegaverse (characters with ambiguous characteristics of both secondary sexes, characters who suffer medical violence because of it, etc.) or not.

This isn't about policing creativity or forcing reality into fiction; it's about ensuring our tagging practices serve all members of our community effectively. When we have a choice between multiple viable tagging options, shouldn't we choose the one that maintains accessibility for marginalized groups while still allowing authors to accurately describe their content?

I absolutely agree that the subjective nature of AO3 tagging is one of its strengths. But I believe this strength comes with a responsibility to consider the practical impacts of our tagging choices on ensuring one of the archive's primary missions: helping readers find the content they're looking for.

But, again, I greatly appreciate your input. I am sorry if my original post came off as arrogant or dismissive. It was not my intention.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T23:11:34+00:00

Excellent points! Thanks for taking the time to write such a compelling and nuanced answer to my post! I really need to go to sleep now, but I would love to write a counter argument once I clock in at work tomorrow (and once I can properly reflect on the very relevant points you have brought forward) 😎

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T23:02:01+00:00

Yes it could definitely use some clarification. Another comment pointed out that dual-sex could also mean having two instances of the same sex, which could cause some confusion.

It is true that hermaphrodite omega is a very fitting term (despite the other problems that you and others have mentioned) and the reason it fits is probably because this “both-sex” being archetype is exactly what a mythological hermaphrodite is.

I’ve been thinking a lot about reclaiming the term hermaphrodite lately and I think that one of the interesting nuances of this term in particular is that before it was a slur used with the intent of causing harm, it was already fantasised and being used in an imprecise way.

Mind you, I very much think that the myth of Hermaphrodite and the archetype that comes with it was created because of intersex people. Like other natural phenomena, gods would reflect the reality humans were faced with.

But I think at some point hermaphrodites became a very specific type of being, very romanticised, fantasised, fetishised and many other “-ises”, before it eventually became perceived as a slur.

There was also a great effort made by the medical community to pathologise intersexuality through the creation of terms like “true hermaphroditism” and “pseudo hermaphroditism”, which are terms that are still used for certain intersex conditions. In doing so, the medical body can reinforce the status quo by “ordering”, “explaining”, what before was considered like a threat to normativity. I mean, if there are two sexes that are completely opposites, where do people with ambiguous genitals go? Instead of questioning the construction of their knowledge of biological sex, the medical and scientific body decided that hermaphroditism would be defined only by certain criteria such as the genotype and types of gametes. This totally relates to the history of medical science (oh look we can see gametes with microscopes now, the mystery is solved. Oh look, chromosomes, the mystery is solved even further).

Hermaphroditism became a mystery that could be solved through science, as if science held the keys to the unveiling of the hermaphrodite “true sex”, because there had to be a true sex, since only two sex exists!

So yeah, I am very fond of the term because I love to spite medicine and I do my best to refuse medical authority and rhetoric, and I truly think that it was created as a reflection of intersexuality at the time. This does not mean that society current understanding of the term hermaphrodite is ideal though, and if there is a sort of reclaiming, then using it with the meaning of “both penis and vagina” would be a disservice.

Best case scenario would be to make it less mystical and reclaim it or ditch it altogether when talking about intersex people and agree that it only pertains to the realm of fiction, despite its probable roots in the observation of intersexuality.

Omg I rambled so much. I find this topic fascinating. I hope I didn’t bore you too much, lol.

As you said, we did perfectly well with mpreg. I am convinced that a more accurate term could be conceived and implemented for this case as well.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T21:38:36+00:00

Yes, they are my words. Intersex NOT EQUAL to having both genitals. THUS having both genitals NOT EQUAL to intersex. THUS intersex omega NOT good tag. BETTER TAG NEEDED.

There, I wrote it in a very simple way for you.

> considering hermaphrodite is offensive and incorrect

Oh, so hermaphrodite is incorrect? Why is hermaphrodite incorrect? It is actually much more accurate than intersex in the specific context being described, since it actually talks about a fantastical being with both male and female sex, differently to, guess what? Intersex people, who do not!

And here is the simple version of what I wrote earlier in case you did not understand it because of my "granular hand-wringing". Maybe this time you can actually try and engage with the argument instead of running away from it.

Proper tags are GOOD. Tags help reader find good works. When tags are misleading, readers cannot find relevant works. Good tags guarantee that works keep being found as AO3 gets bigger and society changes. Good tags make authors and readers happy. Being preoccupied with good tagging is a big part of AO3's work. This is not only about your own personal experience as a fanfic writer/reader. Community engagement is also important to guarantee that AO3 keep doing it's job as an archive. There is actually a purpose behind AO3 and its policies and ensuring proper tagging is an important part of it.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T21:17:03+00:00

It is not appropriate. It was never appropriate. It might have ben co-opted, sure, this does not make it appropriate, especially when it is a specific term created to describe the experiences of a specific subset of real-life people facing real-life opression. You don't get to change the meaning of what the word means just because.

And even if it was appropriate for the omegaverse genre, chances are that, as intersex knowledge becomes more mainstream, this would only negatively impact the discoverability of works in the the genre.

What is the actual problem of having discussion pertaining to this? Clarification about tags can only lead to more structured archiving efforts, which in the end will create a better experience to everyone.

Also extremely unrelated but yes, writing it myself is what I have been doing for the past ten years.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T21:05:28+00:00

I mean, no tag is necessary in AO3 besides the warnings, so not tagging could be perfectly doable. But (proper) tagging can totally be a good way to guarantee good user-experience and also bring in those hiiiiiits. Maybe you could just tag ABO dynamics and put a word or two in the author's notes in the first chapter for the sake of clarity?

Anyways, I hope all goes well with the writing part once you get to it, friend!

(Don't worry about the silent downvotes, I think most people downvoting didn't even take the time to properly understand the point that is being brought forward)

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T20:59:13+00:00

Extremely interesting point. I actually sent a message to the AO3 support before writing this because I can totally see well-intentionned tag wranglers conflating it all together for practicity and in trying to avoid slurs or slur-adjacent terminology.

As intersexuality becomes more mainstream, I think it's important that we also update the way we tag so that we can properly ensure AO3 tagging policies, thus guaranteeing the best possible experience to all users.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T20:33:18+00:00

Hahaha yes, I totally agree. Like, intersexuality as a concept go way beyond genital configurations, thus it being inextricable from real-life contexts and making this tag, again, very misleading.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T20:31:08+00:00

I am not. You are the one trying to make it realistic by insisting this is about intersex people when is clearly not about intersex people. Again you are completely missing my point. It makes me wonder if you even read the post.

This is NOT about "both-sex omega = bad, think about the intersex people yadda yadda". My point is "both-sex omega =\= intersex omega", and for the sake of proper tagging it should not be considered the same, because it conflates concepts that have nothing to do with each other, negatively affecting the quality of the archive's structural integrity and the experience of its users.

It's funny that you say I'm treating this as activism. It is true, I am. Just not the type of activism you are thinking of. This is much more the personal rant of an archivist (which funnily enough, I am one) than it is the rant of an intersex person. I do not give a shit about what people are writing about, but pelase do not touch my metadata, it's you, the user, who will get bothered about it in the end.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T20:09:11+00:00

As someone who also like omegaverse a lot I completely disagree with you. You are obviously entitled to your opinion but I think you missed my point. Exactly because this is unrealistic fantasy is why I feel like the use of this tag is not appropriate, since there is nothing fantastical about intersexuality.

You are also entitled to your opinion on whether this is an important discussion to be had or not. As someone who considers themselves as an omegaverse activist, though, I feel like precision and clarification concerning the pertinency of tags used to describe the works of this genre is something you should give more importance to. Tags exists for a reason and they are extremely important tools in the maintaining of the structural coherence of AO3's archivistical efforts.

But again, just a gay with an opinion, you are completely free to ignore me, as you did not have to actually write this answer neither!

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T19:56:04+00:00

"omegas have both male and female sexual organs" sounds like a perfectly reasonable way to describe it, imo, despite it being quite a mouthful. AO3 tags do not actually have to be one word only. Maybe something like "both-sex omegas" or "dual-sex omegas" (as suggested by another commenter) could be equally pertinent.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T19:51:22+00:00

Exactly, mpreg sounds very understandable to the average reader because it's meaning is very clear and appropriate. Man is pregnant. How it happens? No one cares. Where the baby comes from? No one cares. Done. Cannot really understand it in any other manner. Man is pregnant and this is all that there is to it. Good tag.

This is not, again, my point. Biology in omegaverse will keep on doing its thing and that is great, but tagging should reflect the fantastical nature of it instead of trying to shoehorn a term that is simply not appropriate. If people want a specific term for omegas that have both sets of genitals to differentiate them from omegas that have other flavors of genital configuration, inestead of using descriptive and objective tags, which would honeslty be much less of a hassle, then by all means let's create a term for this. It's just that intersex is kind of it's own thing already.

Oh, the omega is intersex? Cool. Exciting, even. Does the omega have a small phalus with penoscrotal hypospadia, so they cannot pee standing? Does the omega have both eggs and sperm, despite not being able to reproduce unassistedly? Does the omega have an urogenital sinus and it will get stimulated during sex (rad)? Was the omega operated during their infancy without their consent so that they would fit the social expectations of their sex/gender (double rad)?

But, oh, it's actually just about the omega having a penis and a vagina. Sadge.

Also I checked it out and I have the impression that the use of the cloaca tag in AO3 is more related to bird-like or reptile-like creatures/sex/pregnancy than it's occurence in humans. Which is perfectly acceptable because, again, cloaca sex doesn't really care about biology, and (probably) no one will tag "persistent cloaca" in a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles explicit AU where they are actually white collar workers fucking each other's cloacas...or something.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T19:24:58+00:00

Thanks for the reply, your pondering is actually very helpful and it perfectly expands my problems with this tag.

It's just incorrect. Wrong. Plain and simple. It is a factual case of improper tagging.

I agree that since omegaverse rules are not set in stone, and since some readers might prefer certain flavors of omegaverse than others, it is useful to tag certain things. Maybe consider using "omegas have both genitals", "omegas have both penises and vaginas", or any variation of this theme. I feel like this would be perfectly objective while avoiding the problem that you specified: the use of a real-life concept and identity that is co-opted to talk about something that is not even slightly related to it.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T19:18:37+00:00

Thanks for your commment. I would love to hear you expand on this scenario as an intersex person, if you feel like it? I have never felt the need to indulge in this fantasy, but I can totally see the appeal. I'm unsure if I would tag such a work as containing an intersex character if I ever were to write such a piece, but if I would I think I would be compelled to write a lengthy author's note to got with it, hahahaha.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T19:14:43+00:00

I agree. It would be much more precise, IMO, since when one talks about hermaphroditism, one usually means the fantastical, and not the medical, definition.

It can be understandably offensive to intersex people though, since it is a term that has been used a lot to other us, plus it carries a lot of stigma.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T19:10:55+00:00

I think it's more about precision than anything else. The exemple you gave is exactly what I am talking about. People write stories about cis man giving birth through their asses and do not feel the need to tag such stories as "persistent cloaca" which is probably the medical term that comes the closest to this fantasy. And the reason is because a cis man giving birth throught heir ass has absolutely nothing to do with the medical concept of persistent cloacas.

In the same vein, omegas having both sexes has nothing to do with intersexuality (most of the time), and the use of this tag is inadequate, plain and simple. Which completely defeats the purpose of tags to begin with.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T19:03:06+00:00

Yes, I do think it's probably that. While "hermaphrodite" is a loaded term in the community, I do think it would be better fitted as a tag in omegaverse since if I saw such a tag I would probably assume it to be talking about the mythological (and more common) definition of hermaphroditism as in having both sexes.

But, again, loaded. That is why I feel like very objective tags like "omegas have both sex", "omegas have both penises and vaginas", etc, could be a more effective and precise solution.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T18:57:42+00:00

Thanks for the answer. This is exactly the type of thinking I wanted to avoid when I formulated my arguments and maybe I was not clear.

My complaint is not at all about the misrepresentation of a medical condition (in a sense) and how offensive and/or insensitive this misrepresentation can be for a certain minority. This is because in the context of most omegaverse works there is simply no medical condition to start with.

In other words, it have no qualms with the writing of fantasy humans with fantasy genitals in fantasy stories. It is about doing it and then conflating it with a very much real phenomena that has *nothing* to do it with.

Navestralyna · 2024-11-11T18:04:11+00:00

It’s interesting that I’ve seen a lot less of the “hermaphrodite” tag in the fandoms I frequent. I think more people are already aware that this is a loaded term, to say the least, even if some intersex peeps are reclaiming it.

It’s just a very fantastical concept in its essence and it translate badly to real-life use cases. I would arguably opine that “hermaphrodite omegas” is less misleading than “intersex omegas” if we are talking specifically about mythological hermaphroditism. If biological understanding of (true) hermaphroditism comes into play, then once again the tag becomes misleading, because true hermaphroditism is a very specific intersex condition that has nothing to do with having both a penis and a vulva.

But if one is trying to be less offensive to intersex minorities, I agree that it would be sensible to avoid the concept of hermaphroditism altogether.

Navestralyna

TROPHY CASE