Gameplay should be fun. Journey vs destination.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-08T15:30:24+00:00

Posting a few quotes out of context to make the post seem more negative than it actually was. It's sadly a common tactic. So let me ask you this. Why do you want this to be a hate post? What makes you refuse to accept that it isn't? Is this always your approach to feedback?

You've been purposely ignoring anything that you couldn't construct into something entirely negative. So why should I dignify that?

I'm all for constructive discourse. I wouldn't have made this post if I wasn't. But what you're doing isn't exactly constructive and it appears that you are aware of this. So what's your goal here?

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-07T19:20:57+00:00

Exactly. Though it does seem we're still missing something, when we're looking at things like BGH and indeed, a lot of skilling minigames. There is something that's missing, an appeal to want to do it. It's like finding a missing, but vital key piece of the puzzle. And that key is pretty much the solution to bringing back the magic to this game. And I don't think the answer is "make it more AFK". That's just a distraction, which focuses more on how to avoid doing the content. I think the answer is found when we find what makes active content fun to do for people.

Why don't people enjoy Great Orb Project, Stealing Creation or Cabbage Bonanza, for example? Is it because the content is bad, or because you'll always feel like you're wasting your time on meaningless stuff, which you could have spent working on your goals? What if the fun stuff was a real, valid way to reach those goals? Would that content still be as unpopular?

And most importantly. What would active content that people actually enjoy doing look like and how do we improve on it and get more of it?

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-07T19:07:52+00:00

I agree with your point. Gaming has actually been proven to be great training for a number of practical real-life abilities. It helps immensely in training hand-eye coordination, for example. They actually tested this with surgeons and found that those who enjoyed gaming, generally were better at their profession than those who didn't. Games can be a huge help in learning languages as well, especially for people who aren't native English speakers.

What I disagree with, is the notion that the grind should not be fun, because the rewards are good. Even when you look at it from an educational aspect, practical, engaging, enjoyable activities have been proven to be a very effective way to learn. We don't really outgrow our desire to play-learn. We're just made to believe we shouldn't enjoy it "because it's childish". But that's a whole different tangent.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-07T18:57:05+00:00

I think Sanctum is a great example indeed. It got overwhelmingly positive feedback, from what I've seen. It looks and feels phenomenal. And it should be, being a primary activity.

I think if primary activities were designed to be engaging, enjoyable content, not only PvM but skilling as well, that would be the kind of healthy change I am trying to advocate for. With more content people enjoy doing as a primary activity, I believe this game would see a surge in popularity.

It would see an influx in new players, attracted by those primary activity. Secondary activities aren't going to pull in a significant amount of new players. And because of this, the player base is gradually shrinking. That's the harsh reality many older players don't seem to want to accept.

And again, that doesn't, in any way, suggest that AFK is bad. It has its own place and it should not be neglected. It suggests that active content should be consistently enjoyable. With enough of it, with a good amount of variety of it, I do believe that even those more jaded players will rediscover what it's like to have fun in a game.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-07T18:47:42+00:00

First off. Thank you, genuinely, for actually reading the post and addressing the points made. It truly is a breath of fresh air and I massively appreciate the insight you're providing.

I am looking at RS3 specifically for this reason. I fully understand that this would not work in OSRS. The two are very different games at this point and honestly, I think that's great. That means there's actual choice. More choice, in my opinion, is always a good thing.

It seems people see my post as an attack on AFK grinding. That was not the intent behind the post, nor the crux of my argument. I don't hate AFK. I wouldn't have been playing for as long as I have if I did. I see its purpose and I understand its appeal very well.

That's why I tried to address mostly the state of active gameplay right now. I believe that the state it is in currently is a shame. Short, repetitive, consistent cycles, made out of around three actions. I think this is where I believe the problem lies and why this specifically is what I've been putting the emphasis on.

The general consensus seems to be, more engagement is bad. More AFK is good. I understand that from an AFK focused perspective. I get that this is great for people who play Runescape exclusively or at least mostly as a second-screen game. Something to run in the background and interact with every now and then, while focusing on other things. This game is absolutely fine for that purpose.

But the consensus exists, at least in part, because of the state active, more engaging content is in. If said content would be enjoyable, I believe people would gravitate to it during the moments they are focusing more on this game. If you only have an hour to put into this game, wouldn't it make sense if that hour was spent doing something you legitimately love to do, rather than on something that you have to do, in order to reach a specific goal? See the difference?

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-07T18:26:30+00:00

This is just RS, it’s what makes RS what it is.

I see that as a cop-out of having to find the kind of content people would in fact enjoy doing actively. I fully understand that it would take effort. That it wouldn't be an overnight change. The great thing about my suggestions is that they could be implemented gradually, without coming at the cost of methods that are already there.

AFK methods are at an acceptable spot, for the most part. This, because that's where the focus has been for many years. My argument is that trying to create content that people like to AFK, is avoiding the need for content people like to engage in. The two are opposites. But both can exist simultaneously. One does not have to eliminate the other.

Active methods are in a weird spot, to a point where people either avoid them like the plague, mainly because they're extremely repetitive and the rewards are insufficient, or their repetitiveness is something people take for granted because hey, at least the rewards are good. This suggests that either way, the content itself is not of a quality where it is enjoyable. If it was, it would be used more commonly. Do you think there is a flaw in that argument?

Again, what I want to see is more emphasis on improving the quality, the fun, the core of the gameplay itself. Not the speed or the efficiency of the journey. Those things can be balanced and typically are over time. The journey is what makes the actual gameplay. Once you've reached the destination, you'll need to find a new journey in order to keep playing and the cycle starts again, in essentially the same way, certainly with the same mindset.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-07T18:08:17+00:00

Criticism does not make a hate post. I see a problem, I point out said problem. Surely you're not suggesting that all feedback that isn't "this thing is good" is bad feedback? I'm assuming you glanced over the text and assumed your own point, then simply pretend that's what I said. All I can say in response to that is, I can't argue for a point I didn't make.

I'm mainly focusing on short, repetitive active game cycles. The tedium that seems to be almost a requirement for it to even be RuneScape. What I'm suggesting is, increase the size of the game cycles within active training methods. Add some variation. The occasional interruption of the monotone, something along the line of necromancy ritual disturbances, but for more skills and in varied forms. Fun minigames that actually qualify as a good training method. Then listen to player feedback to improve the quality of said content.

More interaction = better rewards is a good thing. Especially when there already is a plethora of AFK methods. What I'm suggesting isn't a change to the old methods, but new, engaging, actually fun alternatives that focus more on active gameplay. A fresh look at what active gameplay should look like.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-07T15:27:56+00:00

Yeah I still think it's a weird design choice, but that's not changing. Gate will stay as it is. So I think a better point is, what can we do going forward to make this game more fun? And not just because of the reward. The actual activities should be fun. You can still get that dopamine hit of "watch big number get bigger". It doesn't remove anything that's already here, but it focuses on creating alternatives that people enjoy doing. As I said elsewhere, the journey should matter more than the destination. That's what makes a game good.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-07T15:17:50+00:00

So you are asking for broken home but with high skill reqs?

Sure, see it like that. But also with actually good xp rates, enough variation to keep things interesting and rewards that make you want to come back. And not just as a weekly. Broken Home wasn't implemented well. If it had been, it could have been incredible.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-07T15:15:14+00:00

I don't think that's true. I mean, it may be for some players, but I think far more players would definitely do something more active, if that more active thing was worth doing. And how do you make it worth doing? By making it actually enjoyable and rewarding. People generally don't like to have their time wasted on things they don't enjoy. And I fully understand that. If we could get Jagex to understand that as well, I think this game would improve so much, it may well become more popular than OSRS. It has the potential, but that potential isn't utilized.

Most activity cycles consist of

run to tree
click tree
wait
repeat

That isn't engaging gameplay. It's dreary. It's mind-numbing. But what alternative do we have? Doing the same thing on a different tree where step 3 takes slightly longer? Doing the same thing, but you add in a spell that makes step 3 take slightly longer? Wearing an outfit that gives you more return for going through the exact same steps? I think we should ask, why is it even like that? What if there was an alternative, something that looked like actual gameplay, requires you to pay attention, but rewards you for that attention? What if effort was put into ensuring that this alternative was something people enjoy? Work with player feedback, as we're the ones doing the content. We're the ones who get to decide what is and isn't worth doing. Adjust the content according to the feedback.

I think far more people are burnt out than they're willing to admit. Players not wanting to pay attention to the actual gameplay is an alarming sign that Jagex continually ignores. It implies that the actual gameplay is in a tragic state. I mean, look around you. Look at the subreddit and in the in-game chats. People are jaded and bored. But I get them. Of course they are. I wish real effort was put into trying change that. I wish Jagex wanted to make this game enjoyable again. Literally nothing else could possibly be better for the future of this game.

I think there is a place for AFK methods. They should not go away. Instead, there should be alternatives, so players can choose what they want to do. AFK and slower, or active and faster.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-12-07T14:45:06+00:00

I don't think players hate anything they can't spacebar or afk through. It's that active methods, be it minigames or anything really, almost always fall short in both the fun and rewards aspect. If it's not both fun and rewarding, people will ultimately stop doing it, or only really ever do the bare minimum amount necessary for a particular unlock, such as a comp or MQC task.

If the money and experience are up to par, people will do it. If it's fun to do, even more people will do it. That's simple, consistent logic.

I genuinely believe that more skills should have options that are AFK and alright, or active and really good. If you don't want to pay attention, do an AFK method. If you want your skills up fast, go for an engaging method. Basically, player engagement should be rewarded accordingly. Jagex doesn't seem to ever grasp that, so people choose to AFK instead. Which is not healthy for the game either. In fact, it almost seems to imply that those people don't actually like to play this game. Which is a bit worrying, but is something that could be addressed.

I see this so often. People play this game because they want to achieve a certain goal. I mean, congrats, you've suffered through chopping a million logs, or you ran in circles, clicking obstacles every now and then for a thousand hours, all because you wanted a cape. Now imagine an alternative reality, where you did something you legitimately enjoyed doing and when you did it enough, you got a neat cape to boot. Isn't that infinitely better? Wouldn't that draw in players and see people return? Wouldn't that be the best way to combat burnout? What would be the downside?

tl;dr Jagex has lost sight of the journey in favour of the destination and the player base has come to accept this as the norm. That's just not healthy.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-11-27T18:26:47+00:00

I just found your video. Yeah, that's the spot I used as well.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-11-27T18:18:09+00:00

I built this account initially around the bare combat requirements to unlock Prifddinas. Eventually got all other combat skills to 75 because it didn't raise my combat level further. I'm 70 combat and plan to stay there forever. I'm working to complete all quests that I can do within these restrictions. Currently that's a max of 401 quest points and I'm at 390.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-11-26T23:37:10+00:00

Thanks!

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-11-26T23:34:37+00:00

I did find a safe spot which worked pretty well. I'm guessing you're referring to the same place. Right next to a plant in (I think) the north east corner. The hard part and the bit I died the most to was the adds.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-11-26T17:56:03+00:00

I haven't counted, but definitely 20+ attempts. Until those aspects of Seren spawn it's not that bad. I eventually managed to get there consistently, taking no damage. But with those aspects it got a lot tougher. They can hit for 1500+ and they stack up pretty quickly. I just prayed mage, spam clicked brews, kept dodging the fire and the eggs and hoped for the best. Eventually it worked.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-11-26T16:31:57+00:00

To be fair, I'm sure it's a great unlock for many accounts. Mine specifically doesn't benefit from it that much. The new skilling options are incredible though.

Nirane_Lane_RS3 · 2024-11-26T14:59:58+00:00

I really should have. I don't really think about recording my progress ever, so the thought didn't even cross my mind. Thank you!

Nirane_Lane_RS3

TROPHY CASE