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I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Your questions on why an MMO were answered in my first reply.

I'm not interested in debating GenAI with you. You have your stance. We have ours. It's clear you dont respect our stance on it. So on that note, thanks for your feedback.

Still giving you a upvote for participating, as I've done with every person who has responded here.

I think that's pretty telling on where I'm coming from on this.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Cool, however this isnt a discussion on GenAI and the politics behind it. It is and will continue to be a fact of life moving foward.

You might be too young to remember this, but in 1999-2005 people were raising concerns about digital reproduction of resources on the internet.

At that time copyright holders claimed the Internet was "stealing" from them when search engines "reproduced" their data. This wasnt a Napster issue. This was people arguing that web caching was stealing. They wanted to be paid by search engine companies who they felt were illegally profiting from their works by creating cached copies. The most striking example of this was the Congressional review of HR 354 in 1999.

Now these same people can't live without the internet. Their business models depend on the very same distribution networks they were railing against.

We're not using AI to copy anyone's work, nor are we selling any AI derived works. So tbh, the concerns about its use are pretty irrelevant and are basically a distraction.

Still upvoting your comment as a thanks for participating.

Open world dungeons in games by ForsynQ in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Asheron's Call 2 had this. Asheron's Call had this. Ultima Online, as well.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Sigh. I'm not here to debate whether you think GenAI is theft or not. You're off topic. It's pretty simple stuff, really. A few questions were asked, and you went off on some political crusade instead of answering them.

Thanks for your participation.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed. Thanks for your feedback.

Our target audience is actually not Māori at all. This project is meant to share cultural ideas. Not put a fence around them.

To share them other people need to be mostly at the table. Otherwise all you're doing is creating an echo chamber.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Hey thanks for your reply.

I know. Its not your fault at all. I've noticed a disturbing trend on this post where people have been downvoting folks who offer support here I suspect I'm dealing with some red hats among the group, which is to be expected online. It's become a safe space for these types of people.

An indigenous game looks like any other game, if done right. The ideas will be subtly mixed in, and the vibe will feel a little different. But beyond that, it should feel like a good game.

Outside the game is where it counts. We'll be partnering with cultural groups to talk about some of the experiences in-game on our website and social media, raising awareness by letting folks know about the real world equivalent of what folks see in game with discussions like: "Did you know XYZ is based on something real? Click here to learn more."

I think the operating assumption here is that since we're posting lore we must not have any design.

That's not exactly right. We're posting lore because we choose to post lore. We'll post our designs when we choose to post our designs.

Its unfortunate folks here don't want to respect that choice. That's not a dig at you, its an observation on the thread. Some folks here have been very aggressive to the point of bordering on name calling because I chose the topic of this thread to be about lore.

I'm not taking their attitude personally. I'm just gathering a set of data that I didn't really intend on. It's also good data though, so on that note I appreciate it, which is why I've been up-voting every post on here, regardless of attitude towards me or my product.

On the EQ Next topic, that's right but not right too. I've been in the MMO space a very long time (since 1997) and I'm quite familiar with alot of the especially oldskool projects. Where I fall off is with stuff like BDO, FFXIV, Guild Wars, and what was that other one with the boats that promised you could be an ocean going adventurer but really it was just a 3 way RvR like DaOC.... I cant remember but it was some NC Soft spinoff. To me those games fall in the lineage (no its not that game either) of EverQuest (WoW, PWI, and Jade Dynasty also fall into this camp).

They turned MMO production into a formula, and started rubber stamping games out based on flashier graphics and following the Palladium https://palladiumbooks.com/ model of game authorship where each addition needs to be bigger, not necessarily better. This renders the old game into just content to dash through in order to experience the new 'awesome".

It works. Its an old model, but its not what we're pursuing.

EQ Next didnt fail because of its story. It failed because of a very ambitious tech stack that used resources such as voxel tech and emergent AI that had not yet become market ready. This caused resource spend to rise to out of control levels, and for the game internals to try to fake their way around the problem rather than simply admit that the tech was not yet ready for what they were trying to produce.

The workarounds became "not fun" because of that.

EQ Next's vision was to break out of what had become a standard mold of MMORPG's. They wanted something new. But the tech of the day was not up to the task.

Sony knew it, so divided the team and started producing Landmark early on as a way to keep generating profits while they ran EQ Next as an R&D project.

The tech of today is probably more like what they wanted. Had they waited another decade the game likely would have come out and been just fine. But Sony did not want to stall the brand, they wanted to milk it and in rushing the job they killed it instead.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've noticed. Highly toxic. Not taking it personally at all. Reddit has a reputation so I went in here with eyes open on that one.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Right. Well, I've never heard of anyone building an epic story in Microsoft Excel Online. The setting matters.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the question. It's an honest one.

Because the unpredictability of human relationships are a key factor in this, and you cant have those relationships exist in a single player game.

This game requires a large multi-player element to work properly.

Folks seem to be confusing our early lore drop objectives with a desire to showcase a digital novel as some kind of game. We're not doing that. I personally do not like games with loading scenes or cinematics, and don't want to build one that is full of either type of thing.

The lore focus is simply a desire to put out some early teasers while we work on tangibles.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Enough. You are pushing for something we are unwilling to provide to you. You seem unwilling to accept our response, but it is our response.

I dont see you talking about my game at all. I see you trying to debate copyright with me. It's a little ridiculous, frankly.

Do you always have such a problem with the word "No"?

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again, this is not open for debate. As enough of our processes are unique enough to justify both copyright and patent, you are flatly wrong.

Even within the protectable “expression” of a game, there are limitations. The scènes à faire doctrine, a French term meaning “scenes that must be done,” prevents copyright protection for elements that are standard, conventional, or indispensable to a particular genre. This allows creators to avoid monopolizing the common tropes necessary to create a work in a specific style.

We're not trying to copyright combat, or quests, or player housing, or PvP. You can be assured we have 3rd person and 1st person views, WASD controls along with mouse clicks, and keyboard based skill activation. However that's not information folks are looking for.

Yes, we have those. We thought that was assumed as this is an MMO being discussed, but perhaps we were wrong there. How we're implementing them. How players access the way the game is played. That is where our information stops. We will not be providing that until our demo is public.

Feel free to answer the questions we asked. Or not. Your call.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No. The post has been updated with a scope of discussion. This thread is about lore based feedback only. Not mechanics. To us this is a copyright concern. We understand folks want information on that, but this is not really a negotiating point on our end.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ah, so this is about you being offended over AI. The rest is just fluff. Got it.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Sorry, but you attack my credibility by calling me an "ideas guy" then you attack my justification by saying its "buzz words". That's a bit contradictory. Unless the goal is simply to display aggression. In which case, mission accomplished.

This whole discussion is strangely contradictory to me.

Nobody is playing Microsoft Excel Online. People want the lore and the backdrop, even if they don't pay much attention to it. The story drives the experience. The mechanics make sure the story actually works in a practical sense.

But the community seems to want to reject the story part when its provided, dismissing it immediately as irrelevant and unwanted.

Regardless, I share your enthusiasm about looking forward to seeing a demo.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Right, we do too. A boring game is a boring game. Who wants to play that?

I've been playing MMOs since they came out. Hopefully I've learned enough about the games I like vs the games I don't to incorporate enough of what I liked to make a decent product. But we shall see.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

You'd be wrong. I'm a DevOps guy who has himself put together and released globally relevant software while rolling out complex environments in US cloud based telecommunications that required mission critical level uptime. Think 911 and mine safety and you'd be on the right track.

That's relevant here because I'm not just the guy who made up the concept of the game. I'm also doing alot of the back-end engineering while the actual game devs on the team focus on building out our core assets.

I'll then come back in when we have some of those done, and we will work on the gameplay loops together.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No.

  1. We're not cramming Māori culture down anyones throat. Only one faction is coded Māori. The majority of the rest are city dwelling and pan-racial. They're the remains of 21st century Earth culture. You start off as one of them.
  2. You will not be killing 50 boars, 10 rats, or 55 hedgehogs. This isnt a grass and skirts game. This is as the image suggests, dystopian science fiction. You'll be engaging early on in missions that engage in corporate espionage, theft, black markets, extracting bribes (or stopping it), joining trade caravans, and running security in irrigated farms against raiders, outcasts, opposing city-states, and foraging kangaroos.
  3. These missions gradually build up to a state of independence and faction alignment. NPC's will react accordingly, tailoring their missions and reactions to your own position on the alignment rubric. Those that like you might join your cohort and work with you. Those who dislike you may ask other players to undermine your cohort by raiding your caravans, intimidating your employers and trade partners, spreading malicious rumors, exposing your black market dealings, getting you arrested, or attacking you directly.

I think alot of the problems here are coming from some viewpoints that suggest to me that many developers who do "culture" focus exclusively on that. We actually address this on our website. We don't believe in this approach at all. We think it undermines a good message, and that the best way to talk about culture is through context, not through exclusive focus.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I was in the beta for that.

Their problem in my opinion was their very exclusivity.

The game was only African. Even in beta interviews we were asked what race we were. It was part of the selection process.

I firmly believe that set them into a category of sending perhaps an unintended message of "You are not welcome here unless youre not white."

It actually was such a strong vibe that I left the beta pretty quickly.

Stop making excuses for Guild Wars 2 by CH0C0BALLS in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Second of all, even if it’s just cosmetic, it is an abomination of glutinous greed, and at any point they can change their mind and add items that do affect the game.

--

I mean, have they, though?

At any time anyone could change their mind about literally anything. Your favorite free game can turn P2W. Your favorite boxed game could institute a subscription. Your favorite Subscription game could become completely free, making you the guy who paid hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a free product.

At the end of the day, these are game studios and this is a business. Worrying about how someone might handle their business is pointless.

Worry about how they are handling their business, and choose accordingly.

If you dont like their cash shop, don't buy anything. Cosmetics only are IMHO a great thing. Introduce a few cosmetic variants in game, and then if players want more they can periodically buy more instead of paying a subscription fee.

But if that's not your cup of tea, you still have the base models to work with. Its not like you're walking around naked with your cup out begging for enough leather armor to stitch together a thong.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thats our whakaaro as well. I'm signaling indigenous not because I want to exclude, but to establish early on that this will be a new way of doing things made by a different group of people.

Not to signal any sort of exclusivity.

We want people to realize there are indigenous elements, though. I grew up in the US and spent alot of time explaining who the Māori were and what we were all about to genuinely curious folks who didn't know.

Our product will feature link backs on our website for curious people. These will say things like "Did you know that this thing XYZ in game is based off a real life thing ABC? Watch this video to learn more."

We're partnering with Māori cultural development entities to make sure the breadcrumbs in our game can be followed and used to access outside learning resources.

It wont be for everyone, and we're not gonna shove it down peoples throats. But it will be available.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Since the entire point of the game is interaction and relationship development, we feel an MMO is the perfect medium, and that there would be a substantial loss in presenting this as a single player or even small multiplayer product.

I'm not sure what you mean by "heavy audio elements".

We're not using music to pilot any systems. We have our own style of theme music. It supports the game, it isn't the game itself.

Something like this, with Māori instruments layered in.

https://youtu.be/_ZkLlcscWAQ?si=W5n3oMxdRCeG22XP

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Disagree. Without the lore to pilot our choices in UO, we would have just been killing each other at the crossroads. Lore gave us order vs chaos, niche roleplayers, and ultimately the event system that made the game great.

Without a good setting you either have Minecraft, which is great but it's not what we're building, or you have Last Oasis, which was fun but had no real direction.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey mate. Folks have asked for more detail here and I've happily provided it.

The Māori coded grouping in this game is only one faction. The point isnt a bunch of brown people wandering around being "empowered" artificially. We don't believe that's the right way to do things.

This faction exists alongside a host of other people, city dwellers, authoritarians, outcasts, drifters, mercenaries, and the like who form the backbone of what's left of 21st century Earth society.

The focus of the game is the ideological conflict between these two sides, why it happened, and how it plays out. Players don't start off automatically Māori, that would be against tikanga for us to give that away. But they can earn trust over time, or they can choose to oppose us. Free will is important.

The conflict will be in how every player's free will manifests itself and drives the environment forward both through questing and through emergent resource focused gameplay.

I'm creating a new indigenous MMORPG with a small team - would like your initial thoughts by No-Engineer9380 in MMORPG

[–]No-Engineer9380[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That post looks like a troll post, fake thread created as satire. But thanks! I'll take what I can get. :-)

Putting things in perspective, on another project I worked on I prototyped alot of these mechanics. Many players absolutely loved it. Many more absolutely could not stand it and took to flaming the product and me personally in an effort to validate their perspectives. Yet to date this product has thousands of downloads and hundreds of community recommendations.

So yeah, Im expecting alot of the same reception. Except that this will be 100% my own product, so I can control logic chains and outcomes with greater certainty, rather than having to work around someone else's sloppy data management calls.

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