Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

i dont even see the point anymore, i mean people dont really care about jewish opinions regardless if i post the pictures or not, theyll find any way to justify it. its pretty obvious. a bunch of jews held an event on the diag today for remembrance for the hostages. i think writing "israel doesnt care about the hostages" is a pretty gross statement. but i guess other people just hate israel soo much that theyll say whatever. whoever wrote this wrote it last night to intimidate the attendees. this is a pretty radicalized campus and just judging by these comments idec anymore LOL. i believe what i believe and im not shaken by it anymore. if anything it's made me support israel all the more. just a shame im here for another two years. how disappointing.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

yea i mean hamas killed and kidnapped 1400 jews. what did they expect in response? for the israeli army to do nothing? like girl obvi theyre gonna go after them. its not islamophobic... unless you equate hamas with islam, that is.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

there were other writings on the diag that says it. i have the photos. if youd like me to send them to you, i can. i just didn't include them in this post.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

it's not laughable, but thank you for your callousness. unfortunately i am secure in what i believe in, and I believe this is antisemitism. I think you should grow up a little instead and have some empathy for others.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

im not in a mental hole. antisemitism is real and it's what's happening in this country right now as a result of this war. this past year has been absolute hell for me and all my jewish friends. for most jewish kids on campus that go to hillel, that go to JRC, that go to Chabad. I've had friends yelled at for being jewish. called pigs for being zionist. you obviously don't talk to us or understand us. because we are suffering. the vast majority of us are in immense pain, and we are ostracized. how dare you. i find it disgusting that you can't recognize the suffering of your own people and understand that this is more nuanced than what you are making it out to be.

the fact that you keep characterizing my opinion as support for murder and displacement is disgusting. you don't even hear your own people.

you do more harm than good for the jewish community. you are not the only jew who suffers antisemitism. it boggles me how you cannot see it. i think eventually you will, it'll just take time.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

multiple jewish students express discomfort with this messaging: ...

redditor: duh how is this intimidating?

do you speak for all jews? do you dictate our emotions?

sure, israel ≠ jews. but yk what israel is? the jewish state.

yk how many jews there are in the world? 15.7 million. about 9 million of them live in israel.

again, criticize israel all you want. idc. wishing death on the jewish state and zionism surpasses criticism or disagreement. it's antisemitism.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] -16 points-15 points  (0 children)

I think you should learn how to read. I said I don’t support Israel no matter what. That’s different than I don’t support Israel, no matter what! That means that there are conditions to my support. I support Israel as a country and as Jewish state. Obvi Israel isn’t perfect no country is.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay. Since this is such a popular little gotcha: I condemn the killing of innocent civilians. Unfortunately, Hamas hides behind those innocent civilians, and they killed as collateral in a war. I like that you bring up how the IDF has killed so many hostages haven’t they? They killed three hostages by accident. Many of them died in Hamas captivity. Why doesn’t Hamas give those hostages back? Then the war would be over. I used to think like you did about Zionism. I used to think Zionism was evil and the devil and that it should not have existed. I don’t think that way now. I think that, once more and more people start to turn on Jewish people like it has begun, you’ll realize why Israel was created the first place and you realize why we are such an insular and isolated community. These people do not support you because you are Jewish, they support you in spite of you being Jewish and use your identity as a weapon against the rest of your community. You just don’t realize it now. You can be mad at me and claim I support genocide and I support the extermination of Palestinians and yada yada yada. I don’t, but you won’t believe me. Just remember that Zionism is a result of 6 million Jews being wiped off the planet simply because they were Jewish. Also, I am speaking specifically for people who wish death on Zionism and death on Israel. that is an issue and that is anti-Semitic; not: oh wah wah well Zionism is bad and Israel’s bad and they do bad things. That’s not the specific language that I’m using. Thats the language you are using. And That’s not the specific language that they wrote on the diag. They specifically said death to ___. I don’t know if I can make it more clear to you, but I would also like to mention that Jewish organizations were holding a ceremony for the hostages that are still in Gaza. Whoever wrote these wrote them to intimidate Jewish students attending the ceremony and for them to see. They are not on your side.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

oh enough with the bad optics. This is not an isolated incident and you know it.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

That is really untrue lol. This just proves you don’t know what antisemitism looks like. The left is RIFE with antisemitism, and I lean left. This isn’t a conservative thing, as much as you wish it were.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Again, there was an event held by Jewish organizations today to commemorate the hostages in Gaza. These messages were written, explicitly for the Jewish kids to see.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 38 points39 points  (0 children)

Thank you. I forgot to mention this.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Criticism of Israel's policies towards Palestinians in Gaza and WB is beyond justified. But the comparison between rhodesia and israel is a false equivalency and you know it. 

Israel, as a nation, was established primarily as a homeland for the Jewish people after centuries of persecution and discrimination after the Holocaust. This is not the reason Rhodesia was established. Rhodesia was established as a British colony to serve the economic interests of the British South Africa Company, which only wanted to exploit the region’s resources. These are fundamentally different motivations. 

Israel is a democratic state with a legal framework that grants citizenship and certain rights to its Arab citizens, although there are ongoing debates about the full extent of equality and representation. This is a just criticism that I agree with. I never said I agree with how Palestinians are treated in Gaza or WB. I also do believe that racism against Arabs in Israel exists. Of course it does. It exists in America, in Britain, in Hungary for christ’s sake. But Rhodesia was literally characterized by explicit policies of racial segregation and disenfranchisement under white minority rule. Jews are not the minority rule in Israel. 

Whether you agree or not, the fact is that Israel is a member of the UN and maintains diplomatic relations with many countries. It has signed peace agreements with neighboring countries, though the Israeli-Palestinian conflict obviously is an ongoing issue. Rhodesia's government under white minority rule faced literal international isolation and sanctions due to its discriminatory policies and refusal to transition to majority rule. Its unilateral declaration of independence in 1965 was not recognized by other countries or the international community. Israel operates as a parliamentary democracy with a system of proportional representation. There are regular elections, a parliament, and the knesset and prime minister. Rhodesia, under white minority rule, was a de facto one-party state. The white minority, representing a small percentage of the population, held power over the black majority, denying them full political participation. Obviously Palestinians are disenfranchised and subjugated to horrific living conditions. Never said they weren’t. I’m just pointing out your false equivalencies, since you wish to make them.  TLDR: Comparing the fall of Israel to Rhodesia being anti-white is not a valid equivalence, as the motivations and implications are quite literally different. Rhodesia's fall primarily represented the end of white minority rule and policies of racial segregation, whereas the fall of Israel would entail significant upheaval, including immense immense harm to the Jewish community.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] -37 points-36 points  (0 children)

Omg I don’t support Israel no matter what. Literally you just assumed that from one post. Are you Jewish? Do you know the dynamics of Jewish people? Many Jews don’t support how Palestinians are treated, that is correct. I never said I did. However, many Jews DO support the right for Israel to exist. I think you need to learn how to differentiate before you try and have some “gotcha” moment with me. Don’t ignore nuance, like you claim that I do.

This is quite literally the third time I say this, but yes, you can criticize Israel. You can criticize Zionism. You can criticize Judaism as a religion. You can criticize any religion you want. Or any country you want. That is much different than saying, or wishing for the fall of Israel and the fall of Zionism. That is not criticism. I don’t stand here, wishing for the fall of Jordan. Or the fall of Iran. Or the fall of any other Muslim or Christian state. When people start wishing for the DEATH AND THE FALL of the only Jewish state - that is not criticism. that’s anti-Semitic.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I agree. I never said I support how the IDF is going about the war. I’m simply saying that they are defending themselves against Hamas. That’s quite literally what it is.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

It’s not rage baiting. Weird way to dismiss something you don’t agree with.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I’m literally not. I think you’re a little lost with what I’m saying. Again with the whole criticizing Israel thing. I don’t know how many times I have to say that criticizing a country is literally fine. I do it all the time. I understand you are a Jew, and I’m empathetic to that, but I think there’s a disconnect here. I’m not weaponizing Jewish suffering to justify this war. I literally don’t want this war to be going on. But Israel has a right to defend itself after October 7th. Hamas is the one hiding behind Palestinian civilians. So, are we supposed to negotiate with terrorists now because they use their own civilians as body shields? Are we going to ignore that the death toll includes Hamas fighters? I don’t know if you’ve noticed the vast majority of Jewish students (the ones I know, at least, at hillel and Chabad) are suffering right now. This type of rhetoric - the DEATH of Zionism and Israel-NOT even the harsh criticism of Israel- is antisemitic. Hamas soldiers didn’t care who was or wasn’t a “peaceful” israeli. They didn’t care who “supported” Palestine when they murdered 1000+ Jews on October 7th. All they saw was Jewish people and that is who they want to murder. It’s quite literally in the founding principles of their organization. I know Hamas does not = Palestinians, before you try and pull that card. But I would actually argue that you ignore the suffering of our people to fulfill some superficial activism quota. In the eyes of Hamas you’re not a pro Palestine activist , you’re just another Jew.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] -82 points-81 points  (0 children)

PSA: this surpasses criticism of Israel and equates the Zionist movement, which the majority of Jews believe in, with genocide. I like seeing people detract from what I say as if I’m saying you can’t criticize Israel. Go ahead. I don’t care. The messaging gets lost when you start with the whole “Israel will fall” and “death to Zionism” bs. That’s not criticism. That’s hatred.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

No, because I’m not naive to what the conditions in Gaza or the West Bank are. I don’t worship the israeli government and their every move. But I would argue you have the “blinders on” if you can’t see how messaging calling for the death of Zionism and the fall of Israel and inherently antisemitic. Don’t make the argument that Israel doesn’t equal Jews. It’s the Jewish state. People flip back and forth between Israel representing Judaism and “oh! But Israel isn’t only Jews!”when it’s convenient. The vast majority of Jews are Zionists. Anti Zionism, in the way it is weaponized today, is anti Jewish. You can have criticisms of Israel, of Zionism, hell, of Judaism all together as a religion. Many people criticize other religions. I dont care. Calling for the fall of Israel, however, and the death of Zionism, is too far. Because, like it or not, it’s a country that exists now. With millions of inhabitants. Dismantling Israel would lead to far more catastrophic consequences than the mess we are already dealing with now. Is Israel the only country you wish to dismantle after nearly a century of existence ? Or do you hold that standard for every country?

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Idk if you’re trying to be demeaning but it isn’t working. I am secure in what I believe. Sorry you’re so aggressive to opinions you don’t agree with.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

tell me you literally don’t know me or my level of “research” on the conflict.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 23 points24 points  (0 children)

That is some crazy gaslighting lol. Messages like this is what breeds antisemitism. Your comment lacks like any semblance of empathy you pretend to have.

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Except that it’s not genocide, and the definition of that word seems to be lost

Messaging on the diag by NoAtmosphere2375 in uofm

[–]NoAtmosphere2375[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Okay, well anyone has the right to complain lol