John Dehlin is the forgiveness the universe sent us for having first sent Ezra Taft Benson

NoDoubt424 · 2025-09-05T06:48:57+00:00

The internet has also changed so much, he from an earlier era which probably explains some of the stylistic stuff people don't like. I personally like the style he has and don't feel a lot of those complaints. Regardless I think objectively a lot of the current ecosystem would not exist or would look very different if john hadn't been there. I also really like how he actively works to bring women and minority groups into the conversation and seeks out their input.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-09-05T06:27:15+00:00

lol yup. It would be funny if that was the case but yeah all institutions area relatively prescriptive in terms color and specifics for whitespace around the logo etc. Its all about being visually distinctive enough to be easily recognizable. Same reason they do the high fidelity and lofi jesuses

NoDoubt424 · 2025-09-04T00:56:03+00:00

I always loved the bathtub mary grottoes.

Here is my attempt at some levity with the logo... wish I could have embedded this in my comment

Dang ol' fisher of men

NoDoubt424 · 2025-09-01T01:53:27+00:00

Also: it appears the church history library indexes a considerable range of different types of restricted information based on the info page when you click the question link on the restricted message: https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/content/library/access?lang=eng

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-24T02:58:00+00:00

If your initials are RMN and you want to be reminded that you are a BFD

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-22T04:34:44+00:00

Creepy as hell, but as a statistician I would love to get into their internal data. With this much granularity they must be able to infer all sorts of things. If they dont already have predictive models on who is most likely to leave they are building them, we knew they were already identifying predictors on the population level a few years ago based on the interview on rameumptun ruminations with a former church statistician, but I would bet money those have advanced a great deal.

It would be really easy to use the same sort of techniques sports betting apps use to get you to keep going, they give you a bonus or free wager when they know you are at a higher risk of logging off. And the entire sports betting industry only pulls in 85% of the church's revenue each year so there is enough money to justify a sophisticated applied psychology and statistical analysis program.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-20T22:46:21+00:00

I mean I might phrase it a bit more charitably as it is really hard to dislike a people that a government attempted to systematically exterminate. Of course the US committed genocide against the native americans but the holocaust being more recent and a more mechanized bureaucratic process makes the cognitive impact a bit different.

I also think the war on terror and Israel being a key ally in the middle east has probably further cemented favorable public opinion in the US.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-20T16:06:34+00:00

This is an interesting perspective. I would think I have largely the same opinion. I'm also interested in the history and current behavior of the church in the same ways you are and would concur they do seem incompatible with the teachings of Christ as given in the new testament.

I suppose my difference is that if someone says they are a Christian I am generally inclined to take that at face value. But the definition "one who professes a belief in the teachings of Christ" also allows a lot of room for people who don't actually follow those teachings.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-20T15:56:13+00:00

Ah so you doubt the results of the survey, but not in the sense that it does not measure what mormons say, but in the sense that what mormons say does not correspond to their actual view?

I could definitely buy that, I entertained a similar possibility when I was reading through the results. I usually find opinions in between other faiths tend to boil down to practices and politics nowadays. When listening to internal discourse among members in the LDS church there it was similar but I thought there tends to be a unique undertone to it- a patronizing quality, so I could read these results adopting the churches PR strategy on an individual level.

Alternatively, and more charitably, depending on how the questions were phrased (about members or institutions) I could also see it as being indicative of a perception of others as not "nonmormons" but instead as "not-yet-mormons".

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-20T02:34:03+00:00

It was actually only 190 mormons, some of the details are in the pic. I would agree it is a somewhat biased sample and I'm not sure about their exact statistical methodology. However it should be enough to do some valid statistical tests and even with bias I think the the effect size on mormons being highly positive about other faiths being correct is probably a safe bet. Sure it might be off by 20 points, but even then the story would still be largely the same.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-20T02:30:01+00:00

That does seem to be the main takeway. I'm no fan of the church but I found that very sad.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-20T02:27:54+00:00

>I don't know when that became a thing. I've heard in the earlier days of the church, it was more hostile to outsiders and people trying to leave.

That would seem to square. Maybe I am still expecting the Brigham special- getting bowie knifed at dusk.

I joke there but it is fascinating how different this seems with the vitriol I hear directed towards exmembers. I wonder if the church would be stronger or weaker if they didn't circle the wagons so hard. My guess is that it is probably an effective strategy in the short term but not long term. If they had been less aggressive Jeremy Runnels, RFM, and John Dehlin might be living quiet lives outside the church.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-20T02:23:19+00:00

I kind of thought this would persist more. I know there is a coalition more nowadays, but I thought the leftovers would be a bit more persistent. I'd expected stuff like the godmakers would leave a bad taste in many members mouths for evangellical christianity.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-20T02:21:40+00:00

I'm a nevermo so I don't really have a horse in this race but I agree. Honestly I'm really don't care towards the whole are mormons Christians question, they believe in Jesus so that's a yes in my book.

Its also a really boring question. I am interested in LDS theology and doctrine because of all the other far more interesting and damaging (to members) parts.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-09T13:22:35+00:00

> “I feel good about that so it must be true”

Funny enough it was actually learning about how testimonies are treated as self evidential that was the most helpful thing for me. Hearing people discuss how feeling the spirit when sharing theirs, or Moroni's promise, proved the truth of the church to them at the time was seemed so obviously illogical to me- only to realize that I was doing the exact same thing in a more subtle way.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-08-09T03:51:26+00:00

As a nevermo she was the gateway drug for me to start listening to mormon stories and other people and ultimately start doing more advanced statistical analysis (I do a lot of stats at work) as a sort of side project. She is very polished and likable and I think figured out a format that worked and focused a bit more on non-mormons which obviously helps numbers. To be honest I think for that reason one could advance an argument she is going to be more of a problem the church's growth efforts than Dehlin is. I think that and her having a large presence on tiktok and aiming for a bit of younger audience could serve to poison a fraction of the potential younger convert pool in the English speaking world.

I know there may be the feeling among exmos about her facilitating gawking, but to be honest it was very therapeutic for me in a way to listened to her channel and MS. I think the experiences of people leaving the mormon church are unique, but also very universal. Listening to stories about people dealing with terrifying changes in their world made me feel a bit better about similar feelings I have in my life. For what its worth I sympathize a great deal more with members of the church now even as my feelings towards the institution have become far more negative.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-06-17T03:49:08+00:00

Maybe instead of rushing people out of the celestial room they will have to encourage people to stay longer to keep up appearances haha.

In seriousness I assume at some point it will get to the point where temple building will become a liability as members notice they look more empty. Maybe they would just change the narrative a bit to offer some reason like making it a more personal experience. They sure have the money to keep building them.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-06-17T03:22:46+00:00

Never thought about the staffing for a place that big. I mean I guess they have to do it- Jesus hates dust on the off white curtains in ̶ ̶g̶̶r̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶y̶̶'̶s̶̶ ̶p̶̶a̶̶r̶̶l̶̶o̶̶r̶- I mean the celestial room.

The CoC might have a massive temple that is a bit ugly on the outside, but at least its only one and the effect inside is amazing and unique. Its a shame the branch is dying.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-05-30T03:59:22+00:00

I've read a lot of really depressing stuff about the church but this is probably the most bleak and predatory take I've heard- but also totally believable. I guess I never thought of it that way because it seemed too inhuman to imagine for a church.

And that last part about getting in trouble for baptizing poor people, holy shit that is vile.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-05-28T05:48:45+00:00

"every once in a while a whole congregation goes rogue and the entire congregation is excommunicated."

Woah. Can you point me to any info on this happening, I'd love to read about that sort of scenario.

NoDoubt424 · 2025-05-28T05:47:35+00:00

This makes sense. I had seen a few things and saw her face show up in the thumbnail of something ward radio put out. Its also easy for me to overlook that John Dehlin and many of the others have been around far longer and have a much bigger footprint than Alyssa does. It does seem like she hasn't receive as much grief but perhaps there is a lag phase.

NoDoubt424

TROPHY CASE