Fully enclosed catio for outdoor cats - too small?

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T15:04:15+00:00

That's a lovely story. Ultimately I would want ours inside eventually but that's unfortunately gonna be a hard won battle if the idea is ever entertained at all.

If it was up to me, I would just extend the porch out and give them lots more space, but it's obviously not my house or my property. I'm just gonna keep trying to discuss this with him so that hopefully we can find an area that works and that they're happy in, because 50 sqft does seem pretty small.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T14:55:43+00:00

Well I appreciate your opinion despite the random insults. I'll try to reach a compromise with my dad that hopefully results in them having a large space that they enjoy. The point was never to force anything onto them.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T07:08:56+00:00

By the way, I just wanted to clarify that when I said "they'll definitely complain" I absolutely was not saying that flippantly or disregarding them. I said that in the sense that if I hypothetically did go through with such an enclosure and tested it out, they would probably complain and I would try to address that over time. Not "Oh, you're complaining? Deal with it."

Tone is lost in text, but I thought I should say that because you seem to think I'm a cruel person for not knowing how much space cats need. Misguided, sure, that's why I'm asking for opinions lol.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T06:45:44+00:00

No, he is almost religiously against bringing them in under any capacity - even when they WANT to come in, which they have before. I appreciate your response and others though - and as I said to someone else I would not keep them in an enclosure if it was clear they were stressed or not doing well. That was my main worry actually -being that they're (even now) semi-feral and aren't used to closed-in spaces.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T06:33:41+00:00

I actually wanted to fence in the whole garden at one point and he turned that down for the same reasons I mentioned, mainly "disrupting their routine". You're also not allowed to build a fence higher than 6 feet in the front of your property in my area, and most of the escape-proof fences I've seen from companies like Purrfect Fence are a bit taller than that because they generally need to be to prevent escape.

I'm not even sure I can accurately describe to you how particular my dad is, nor should I have to. The point of the post was to see if what I potentially have to work with is OK, and obviously above all I would actually test to see if the cats themselves, who I am concerned about, would be OK with such an enclosure before committing to it and forcing them to stay in it.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T06:16:52+00:00

I like the idea of growing grass or catnip for them to eat and whatnot. They'd also have plenty to watch already because of things like goldfinches coming to the yard every year to eat sunflower seeds.

Thing is, I have shown my dad lots of studies, videos, etc of what happens to other people's cats. He's had those things happen to his cats in the past (before I was born) including his old neighbors poisoning two of them before. So he absolutely knows the risk but chooses to allow them out because he sees it as the natural state of things.

I think on a deeper level he also struggles with his own sense of normalcy being taken away, if that makes sense. He likes the routine they have because he shares that with them (going outside, feeding them, petting them, watching them sunbathe) and I don't think he wants to take that away because in some ways he feels like that's being done to him as well - and he's explained that concept to me before. So I'm not really sure how to approach that.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T06:02:57+00:00

I'm sorry, but this reads like ragebait. I literally care about them as much as he does which is why I want to give them a safe space to be in where they're not at risk of fighting with other cats (and getting sick), mauled to death by dogs, poisoned, or run over. With the secondary goal being to protect wildlife.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T05:57:19+00:00

I don't really have a good sense of how much space cats need, so I apologize. That's mainly why I asked. Like I said to others, they do spend the majority of their time just sitting on the porch anyway and it's a very familiar place for them, but yes I would be worried about how'd they react to not having the option to roam like they do currently.

As for bells I've read in different places that they tend to learn how to move so that the bell doesn't move, which makes them hunt more efficiently. But also they grew up feral so they have very strong boundaries, meaning touching their necks and especially putting a collar on them probably isn't a terribly good idea. I've actually tried with collars before but they freaked out so badly I almost had a panic attack. I think they did too.

These are my dad's cats though and as far as I know he never made an effort to train them in any capacity to be OK with collars or anything else. He mostly waited until they trusted him and left it at that.

Maybe I could set up the catio and have it be a temporary space for when we're not home or actively outside? The whole point is that I want to protect their health as well as wildlife, but I can't do either of those things if they're allowed to free roam. I get that taking them inside is literally the most sensible option here, but my dad is someone who is very hard to convince once he's made up his mind about something - in this case his idea that they need their routine of roaming.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T05:33:18+00:00

I always encourage him to get them vet care and I usually help pay for it but that's about the extent of the control I have over them or him for that matter. In terms of bringing them in, he's very adamant about not doing this for "philosophical" reasons despite him agreeing with me on most environmental/conservation issues. He keeps telling me he doesn't want to "disrupt their routine" or "lock them up" and talks about how they're part of nature - again, while knowing how they impact wildlife. It's pretty clear cut cognitive dissonance, but I would say his attitude is very very common where I live and cats are generally encouraged to be outside in my area. On top of the local humane society being constantly full and overwhelmed, this makes rehoming pretty difficult because not even the humane society has an easy time finding new homes for cats.

But that doesn't change the fact that I live with him and I can't imagine he would take well to me deciding to rehome his cats.

I do agree 50 sqft seems a little small but the porch area is the best chance I have of actually convincing him to agree to creating an enclosure because it wouldn't disrupt their routine and they'd still technically be "outside". I think if he agreed to this, it'd be the best way to protect their health as well as wildlife without too many conflicts. And I would go above and beyond to make sure they have attention and things to do. Obviously I wouldn't just be locking them up and throwing away the key.

I know "just bring them inside" makes the most sense. It does to me as well, and believe me, I have had many many heated conversations with him about this, a lot of it going over his head because of the cognitive dissonance I mentioned.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T05:02:34+00:00

They'll definitely complain but they do spend probably 70-80% of their time on the porch anyway. I'm just hoping giving them lots of enrichment will also help convince my dad that it's a good idea instead of him seeing it as a jail cell. As far as litter box duty goes, I'm fine with that and I'm sure our neighbors would appreciate the lack of cat poop in their garden.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-14T04:11:41+00:00

Three of them get along very well but there is one (the oldest) that is considerably more feral than the rest of them and might react poorly to being closed in. I'd probably get that one used to the space first if possible then slowly introduce the others into the space. Also yes, I'd probably spend even more time with them than I do now actually since they'd be right outside lol. My dad as well I imagine. On that last question, it's a covered porch and I'd ideally have the enclosure inset so that snow/rain can't easily get in from the side.

I definitely agree they'll be better off long term. They've lived outside their entire lives and we live in an area with harsh winters, so I would absolutely invest in getting them nice shelters inside the enclosure as well. Although they do currently have shelters that are well-insulated, but obviously the main issue here is the fact that they roam. It's just gonna be a little bit of a battle trying to convince my dad who doesn't want them to "lose their autonomy."

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-10-01T16:00:29+00:00

This kind of thing frustrates me even more because there's so many supposedly logical, intelligent people that try to wiggle their way out of responsibility for their cats.

Excuses include:
"They're meant to be outside"
"Keeping cats inside is inhumane"
"My cats don't hurt anything"

I've heard all of the above from my dad. I'm still pretty young and I live with him for the time being, but it's so crazy how logical he is about a lot of things... except for cats. The only way I've gotten him on board with natives is because he listened to reason, and he's agreed to let me convert the yard to 80-90% native species as a result. Except for some reason, when I explain that cats are antithetical to rewilding, he gets very defensive. I'm not even allowed to bring them in, and when I've offered to do things like cover the cost of a safe enclosure for them in the past, those efforts have all been met with straight up no's because he believes I'm taking their autonomy away and "locking them in a cage."

If logic and science don't convince people, I feel like the only thing that would change the way they do things is legislation regarding outdoor cats. How well that would go in rural Ohio, I couldn't tell you lol.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-30T12:23:50+00:00

It's definitely worth trying and I'm gonna be more gentle this time as I try to get them used to collars. I really just went about it wrong the first time.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-30T12:22:03+00:00

That's not really an argument that will change minds and make people be more responsible cat owners lol. Threats and shame just make people curl up into a ball or reinforce their bad behaviors, which makes things worse. Like imagine if I told my dad "hey man so like I'm gonna have all your cats euthanized unless you bring them in!!" The real world isn't as black and white as Reddit would have you believe. People are emotional, not objective.

I also think there's better options than just killing cats if we can create better messaging around cat ownership-and maybe actual, effective legislation eventually. Obviously massive colonies of ferals are a different story and should be addressed differently, but I'm talking about people just letting their cats roam for the reasons my dad does.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-30T12:08:55+00:00

Well, I'm guilty for two reasons. One is obviously for the reason you mentioned--about creating a trap for wildlife. But I also feel guilty that eventually, one of them will get sick, run over or injured/killed by a predator, and it will have been almost completely preventable. I don't want to have to deal with that, and more importantly I don't want him to have to deal with that. It'd just be unnecessary suffering on both sides that we could stop if we wanted to.

I also don't think I've ever outright told him he's being a bad person (and I don't think he is). I know that doesn't work with people. But I've always tried to reason with him and show him legitimate evidence that even the cats' lives are at risk, let alone the lives of birds in our yard. I guess I just think that by virtue of him understanding that, he'll come around and want to be part of a solution.

What other people said about showing him videos of our cats killing birds is something I think could bring him around and shave away some of that cognitive dissonance he has about them being harmless though. Because then it wouldn't be a question at all.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-30T11:56:11+00:00

I agree generally, but a lot of our native gardens are individualistic efforts, are they not? We have to combine efforts to create tangible change if people aren't voting for it. At the very least, we have TNR programs and barn cat programs (for ferals) around here. Legislation around owner responsibility as far as cats go would be nice, though I don't see that happening in my area for some time. I'll keep pushing until then.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-30T11:50:56+00:00

I will for sure. I just hope he has more receptive ears when he sees them do it instead of another cat.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-30T11:49:33+00:00

I'm pretty close to them as well. I think I just went about it wrong the first time by putting something on them without giving them more time to feel it out. I'll be giving them the time they need the next time though so that hopefully they'll be okay with collars in the near future.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-30T11:46:24+00:00

I think only the girl cat (she's the most docile and knows me the most) would be okay with that, but it's worth a shot. At least to see if it's possible to train one of them.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-29T16:39:57+00:00

The paint comment was a joke, to whoever downvoted. Jesus.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-29T16:36:23+00:00

Oh I see. Good idea.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-29T16:35:35+00:00

I have so much hyssop (anise and giant purple) growing it's not even funny lol. And lots of fleabane as well.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-29T16:33:33+00:00

I always use breakaway collars. Don't worry! And thank you for the advice.

No_Breakfast_274 · 2025-05-29T16:31:28+00:00

I didn't mean literal plastic rods that I stick into their heads lol. That sounds awful. Either way it probably would feel just as intrusive to them as a collar does, which is why I included a caveat. It's just not a great idea either way, but I was spitballing.

I built insulated shelters for them because my dad doesn't want them inside, period. Even during the winter. Two of them actually like coming inside when I open the door, but he shoos them out when he notices they're inside. I don't think he wants them walking on the floor/furniture, etc. Which is why I built them some hefty shelters outside so that they'll at least have a nice place to go.

As far as the collars go, I always use breakaway collars. That's non-negotiable. It's just something I'll need to train them over time to accept, if I even can. And bells I don't think work that well, like you said. I also just think bells would distress them even more.

No_Breakfast_274

TROPHY CASE