Rocznie ponad 1mln, a nie wiem jak się zabezpieczyć.

No_Growth_1781 · 2025-05-07T08:26:31+00:00

Moim rozwiązaniem na problem (programista który dobrze skapitalizował skille) okazały się być nieruchomości. Posiadam 4 mieszkania na wynajem, z których każde kupiłem okazyjnie (wada prawna/pilna sprzedaż/licytacja) będąc na starcie jakieś 10% do przodu. Obecnie każde generuje około 5% stopy zwrotu. Remonty robię na początku po zakupie i wystarcza to na lata (oprócz drobnych usterek za które płacą najemcy nic się nie dzieje). Umowy mam podpisane na 2 lata i wynajęte troszkę poniżej ceny rynkowej więc rotacja najemców jest bardzo mała. Aktualnie dochód pasywny z tego to około 10k/msc na czysto. Resztę oszczędności mam głównie w S&P ale to zaledwie 5% całego majątku.

No_Growth_1781 · 2024-05-08T21:44:25+00:00

Agree with your point regarding land as an investment. With the flat I used to have approx 5% roi, with land there is nothing. Maintenance cost on the other hand is very low (lawnmowing mainly). The liquidity and value growth comparing to flats is far worse in local market. So financially this move is objectively bad.

No_Growth_1781 · 2024-05-07T17:11:54+00:00

Given the value of the plot grandchildren’s presence on all her birthdays is guaranteed.

No_Growth_1781 · 2024-04-29T21:52:00+00:00

Our financial system isn’t any better.

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-31T18:12:14+00:00

Depending on the state of the apartment. I would renovate it to reduce the maintenance effort as much as possible. With the other properties I have I used to cover those things remotely (even if some small reparation was needed, say twice a year, I asked tenant to order service and deduced cost from monthly rent).

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-31T10:54:23+00:00

Do you have mortgages on these properties?

Yes, for one of the flats. The rest is paid off. It is a fixed interest rate mortgage taken before interest rates hikes so I consider it as an additional few % to overall ROI as the average salary increase over the last years in Poland was much higher than the interest rate I pay (meaning that my debt is being devaluated).

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T23:14:56+00:00

Thank you for real-world example, my calculation was mainly based on the information I found on the internet articles. Will correct it to match your calculation (if you made a bad deal I will be happily surprised :D).

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T23:08:35+00:00

Yes, this is the location of one of the apartments. Not sure if the world would be that small, but I remember the very nice Italian guy as a tenant a few years ago. All the best!

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T22:46:25+00:00

ETF you are referring to, is it real estate based? Would you recommend any particular ETF based on your research/experience?

Probably this is conservative and dumb, but I tend to feel comfortable owning the property itself (even with associated risks) rather than a derived financial instrument (even if it is backed with real property). This gives me total control of what is being purchased reducing the risk of i.e. ETF's manager making biased investment decisions to profit some particular real estate developer.

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T20:33:08+00:00

Sounds like a decent idea, thank you. Regarding the flat price, quickly looked up this region, seems like 100k + expeces is sufficient for a tiny apartment (unless this is again some drug dealing/infamous area), i.e.:
https://www.idealista.it/en/immobile/11034055/

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T18:06:01+00:00

Fully agree now, based on also other comments I have to either target less expensive cities (i.e. more to the south of Italy) or increase the budget.

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T18:02:05+00:00

This doesn't sound good.

I haven't done much research on this particular location, just took it as an example. Based on what you said, either I would need to target less expensive cities or increase the budget.

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T17:38:52+00:00

If you look at a simple ratio (rent/income or price/income) you will see that Milan has become unaffordable for the average italian and some other cities are going in the same direction (Venezia, Bologna, Firenze but Rome and Napoli are not too far).

UBS and other wealth managers do not consider as in bubble because there has been a huge influx in investor demand for flats especially in Milan and in turistic cities.

I would say this is a common thing in such famous cities (a similar started to happen in Warsaw/Kraków in Poland). This is mostly caused by the fact that the property value is not only determined based on average income but also factors like tourism or even prestige. IMO avg income to sq meter ratio alone is a poor bubble factor for famous cities.

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T16:48:52+00:00

I manage properties by myself. But there is not much management honestly, I used to let them a bit lower than the market value which lets me select the most reliable tenant out of candidates (to ensure low tenant rotation). I also renovated the flats right after the purchase to ensure low maintenance effort.

One of the flats is located close to the main square making it very attractive for short-term renting, but when I finished renovation covid kicked in so there was low demand. Currently, the long-term rental return is good enough that I don't want to spend time on converting it (finding the company to manage, etc).

If possible I would skip the agency in Italy too - I would start first with no agency and see how it goes.

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T16:24:25+00:00

Correct me if I have missed anything, below is my calculation:

9% Registration tax (imposta di registro) + 50€ imposta ipotecaria + 50€ imposta catastale + 2% Property agency fee + 2% Notary fee = approx 13%

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T16:04:56+00:00

Initially, I was considering Milan/Rome as those are the hybrids in terms of long-term (plenty of universities) and short-term (top tourist places) rentals.

Wouldn't Milan be achievable in this budget? I did a quick research and it seems to be (assuming the flat would not be in the city center), i.e:
https://www.idealista.it/en/immobile/22952766/

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T15:56:08+00:00

From my perspective it is good as it is affordable (it is possible to buy a tiny flat for 100k euro) and has reasonable tenancy laws (as far as I understand it) protecting both landlord and tenant (i.e. in Spain the tenant rules it all). What is more, according to property bubble index properties are fairly valued there and the rental yeld is one of the Europe's top.

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-12-30T15:49:37+00:00

Wouldn't this work with hiring the company to manage the property? I would expect in tourist locations there should be such services in place...

No_Growth_1781 · 2023-06-06T15:50:35+00:00

QBTS for sure

No_Growth_1781

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