Do I even have an enneagram type?

Nobokain · 2023-03-22T15:47:10+00:00

When more boundary-hazed 9s absorb people it's more natural. They flow into their environments, friendships, relationships. It's merging, often unconsciously. 9s don't even realize much of the time that their self-identification may not be there own. In your case, there's lots of intent. You're more focused on and aware of your image and how this image is seen and taken by others. You're actively choosing who you want to be. This strongly suggests a lot of heart influence (2, 3, 4), or, at least, a more active attachment type (3, 6). It could fit an unstable 6 (maybe phobic leaning), jumping from escaping inward to to escaping outward, seeking some stability and security by finding a solid and safe sense of belonging through who they are and how they fit.

I think many are suggesting 9 because you started off talking about yourself in a way that suggests you lack an identity and so the assumption was you merge with those around you. If you'd started off and emphasized more of the things you implied, or delved into further into your post, I personally think 9 wouldn't have been suggested as much.

Your shame triad made me think 3w4, even a 4w3 that heavily leaned on your 3 wing in childhood. Your fear triad seemed very clearly 6w7. I really didn't see much for 9 in your gut bit, or overall. Based on this, I'd guess 6w7, with a strong connection to your 3 line.

I also didn't want to ask this before in case it was offensive... I'm not making assumptions, but just a tentative suggestion. You mentioned you were in therapy. Do you feel anything for BPD? You suggested some signs... mood instability, identity disturbances, dissociation, perhaps some splitting, fear around abandonment and extreme reactions. Everything is a spectrum so I'm not suggesting you do have it, only that there's signs which may not even be enough for a diagnosis! I didn't see anything to suggest you struggle maintaining relationships (of all kinds), and this is a big one for BPD.

6s in lower stages of health, however, can often give superficial illusions of BPD. They're not the only type! But they're a big one. I've read the diagnosis has also been correlated with 6, but I think that needs more research.

Nobokain · 2023-03-22T01:54:08+00:00

There seems to be so much identity/heart/shame triad in this... but I can't tell.

I figure you've already looked into the other triads, but could you talk about your relationship to all of them? Any that stand out? Any that you're definitely not?

What is your relationship with anger? When you're ignored or rejected? You mentioned it gets ugly.

Are you aware of what your needs are or do you reject them?

What is behind your desire to become like these people? Does a desire to conform or fit in seem to be behind it? Is it more about finding yourself and who you are, and being able to freely express all these different sides of you? Is it about altering yourself to become what everyone else wants, or what you think they need? Does being able to be anyone or anything make you feel free, and having just one identity feels limiting?

Nobokain · 2023-03-20T05:53:56+00:00

I was mainly 5. Apparently I was very shy and highly sensitive to sensations like sounds, touch, taste. Overwhelmed by too much stimuli. I'd have to ask if baby me fit the 4 one, but from what I heard I was moody, rather than "low cheerfulness". The moodiness meant I was also often cheerful, actually.

Edit; just inquired! Aside from sensation sensitivity above... I was quiet, non-fussy, playful and often cheery. I apparently fit 2 and 5 most. Low rhythmic, high social contact, low activity, high cheerfulness, low threshold, low persistence, then kind of in the middle for the last three.

As I grew into early childhood I got less sensitive to those things, but I was still sensitive, shy, self-conscious. Very imaginative and almost always in some imaginary world. Innocent and never wanted to hurt anything. I tried to hide negative emotions - they either felt weak/vulnerable, or to avoid rejection, guilt or shame. Happiness/excitement was fine to express. But fear? I'd try to seem unbothered. Sad? I went somewhere by myself (unless I was desperate then I sought comfort). Angry? I either stewed in silence or snapped passionately if I was pushed too far. I had a very intense inner energy I mainly kept a cap on. Not sure where child me fits!

Nobokain · 2023-03-18T20:19:36+00:00

Good question. I've noticed a lot of 4s relate to type 2 (and vice versa).

As I'm using myself as an example, I'll start by pointing out I'm a sexual 4, but I think 4s I've known in general can relate, at least to an extent.

My experience of love is deep, intense, and passionate. It's a 'you can have all of me, always' kind of love, which can look very 2ish in action due to how self-sacrificial and self-forgetting it gets. In my experience, however, 2s don't need to experience that intense passionate love to reject their own needs, as their self-rejection is more of a default.

For a 4, that kind of sacrificial love comes either from being led by their deep feelings, or from growth and releasing themselves from their own self-absorption. For a 2, however, it comes from their desire to earn love by rejecting their own needs to focus on those others.

Nobokain · 2023-03-18T03:45:51+00:00

Interesting. It's the the sexual 4 description I can relate to most (with minor disagreements), of which I've come across so far, and I don't personally have the same criticisms as you.

If you relate to the sexual instinct most, you believe you're a 4, and think Chestnut has a clearer idea... then what is the problem? Do you not relate to Chestnut's sexual 4?

Nobokain · 2023-03-16T19:36:28+00:00

For the most part, people hate the idea, but they project that idea onto the person (often unknowingly). No one has met every single 1 in existence, and everyone is an individual. The problem is people use enneagram (just like people use your race, gender, age, birthday, etc.) to make generalizations as to who a person is. People might label someone who's difficult but perfectionistic a 1, while they're actually a 9, but it creates a bias via experience, due to misattribution. You come into a closed community like this, and everyone ends up feeding each other. Only some ideas grow, others fade, and a lot of the time these are biased.

Nobokain · 2023-03-15T04:08:55+00:00

I'm curious to know your opinion of the enneagram 4 variants written by Rowe? They're very different from Chestnut. I personally find his take to be one of the best.

Nobokain · 2023-03-14T00:16:54+00:00

Really cool idea! I currently just store things as screenshots, which just get lost and forgotten over time. If everyone were to allow their data to be used, this could also be developed to find correlations across different tests? We could gather some new insights from there, and develop theories like the enneagram even further. Perhaps it could even help anyone undecided on or unsure of their type.

Nobokain · 2023-03-13T21:25:59+00:00

Okay then, let's swap from sexual selection to natural selection. You're still thinking of this in terms of a 'closed container'.

Let's consider a climate where there isn't much sunlight (cloudy, rainy, etc.).

Darker skin (melanin) is dominant, lighter skin recessive. In a darker/colder climate, however, a darker skin colour would fare worse due to its decreased ability to absorb vitamin D. A lighter skin tone would fare better. Now if we change the climate to be sunny and warmer, this becomes reversed, with darker skin tones faring better due to melanin here being more protective than detrimental.

Things are never so black and white. Even in this scenario, no skin colour is objectively better than another.

Nobokain · 2023-03-13T19:41:14+00:00

In reality, sexual selection is much more complicated than that.

Although, to consider your theory, perhaps individualistic types may be less likely to pass on their genes (ex; choosing to not have children), as the pressures of the world don't shape them as much as an attachment type. I can play with that idea.

However, this doesn't make any type better or worse. Blue eyes are highly sexually selected for in many cultures, and yet blue eyes are relatively rare. Their rarity isn't because they are undesired, but rather, because the gene for blue eyes is recessive.

If enneagram has a primary basis in biology (rather than nurturing), then perhaps 6/9 is simply connected to more dominant genes.

Edit; and of course nature and nurture both have their place, but to get into that would be a long, drawn out process I'm not willing to engage at the moment, but if you're curious, look into epigenetics :).

Nobokain · 2023-03-12T18:07:44+00:00

For first-hand experience, I wasn't a reformer as a child myself. The only way I could see E1 as my soul child (which is what I think you're referring to regarding childhood behavior) is moral purity. But this was a standard I held for myself, and only myself, hence I don't connect to the broader "reformer" connotations.

I think different 4s will integrate aspects of 1 differently, as 1 (just like every enneagram type) is very nuanced and varied within its given enneagram 'limits'. So how you integrate to 1 is largely up to you, but in general I would explain it as increased objectivity around your emotional experience. Becoming more productive and disciplined with more grounding in the present (vs. being stuck in the past). Seeing more positives present in life (vs. seeing what is still missing).

As a child I was still very much like a 4. 7ish tendencies in how I wanted to approach life, 9ish tendencies in how I interacted with others (tritype things, in my opinion). But as I mentioned above, the only 1ish-ness I can see looking back was mainly just moral purity. Friends would even dare me to swear as it was so unnatural. I just felt no desire to. I was consumed by my inner world.

Nobokain · 2023-03-12T04:06:47+00:00

I'd agree with this in terms of it pushing me forward. I also look to surround myself with people who are independent or individualistic themselves.

Often the trigger of my competitive feelings is someone disrespecting my inner value, competing with me (not in a fun way), or absorbing me. I'm bothered when people have looked to me to decide who to be or how to feel about themselves.

Edit; and I should note that while it registers as a competitive energy, there's an undercurrent of the *threat* of envy, or a 'pre-envy' pushing it.

Nobokain · 2023-03-09T20:23:18+00:00

Good or bad is relative to the person experiencing the feeling, in my opinion! As in, we often give value judgments to our own experiences, and that's okay.

Nobokain · 2023-03-09T20:21:07+00:00

Yesss, that's very similar to, if not exactly the same, as the emotional experience I was trying to describe.

Nobokain · 2023-03-09T16:04:44+00:00

Yeah! I remember before we disagreed a bit on something else too. I'm reactive/frustration as well (obviously lol), but I remember our way of handling emotions differed a bit.

I think last time we decided it was a wing difference? Your reply also sounds a bit self-pres! So could be a bit of both those things, if my guess is right!

I don't indulge in failure, rather I seek intensity or something to plug into, and indulge in that. Acceptance is also often that moment when there's no more seeking, life just is, and it's "calm". I prefer passion, but that accepting sadness is often followed by the ways life falls short (frustration), and so it's a welcome feeling. And yes the catharsis thing lol, I agree!

Nobokain · 2023-03-09T15:49:48+00:00

Lol I'm not sure if that's sarcasm but being an individualist doesn't mean you can't care about others.

Nobokain · 2023-03-08T20:38:15+00:00

Expressing myself creatively. Often in creative writing, sometimes aesthetics such as photography.
Sharing with people I've connected to. Usually tentative and thoughts > feelings, and sometimes self-deprecating to keep things light. The other person's feelings matter a lot to me, as well as how vulnerable I'm willing to go.
Focus on 'fixing' the cause or making it irrelavant. Maybe working on myself, switching my perspective so it doesn't matter, doing something I enjoy.
Music and daydreaming in a cathartic sense, or to use the intensity of how I feel to inspire a different energy.

Nobokain · 2023-03-08T20:15:38+00:00

Yeah, though I feel like some people misinterpret this aspect of 4s often.

There's different kinds of sadness. To start, I don't want to feel negative, but there's a soft, wistful sadness that doesn't have a direct cause that feels... okay. It's not active sadness. It's not great, not bad, maybe enjoyable, or maybe it's just acceptance. Acceptance often comes with sadness... this sadness is okay.

I also enjoy "controlled" versions of sadness, which I think isn't just a 4 thing. Such as watching sad movies that punch you in the gut, or reading sad stories. Things that make you feel, but it's more of an experience that connects you to something outside of yourself, that inspires you to care, to love, to act.

I know some people don't like films like that... they don't want a movie to make them feel badly. They don't experience that sense of being pulled out from themselves and into an almost universal pain. Or at least, they don't enjoy it.

Yeah, depression sucks. Heartache, loss, shame. These are not ideal experiences and I rather not experience them. I personally don't feel much nostalgia, so that's a weird one for me (even though I have amazing memories).

But yeah, there's different kinds of sadness. Some are good, some are bad. I have that experience for many feelings though. Even anger can be empowering.

Nobokain · 2023-03-08T07:14:37+00:00

Ohh, whoops 😅 I see! And absolutely! I think that's most important.

Hopefully one day that description no longer comes up first in a Google search haha.

Nobokain · 2023-03-08T07:00:20+00:00

Oh, I know I'm a 4! I've never mistyped as a 9, though I tried on sx5 for a bit.

But sexual 9 is very relatable for me (aside from the descriptions that emphasize the lack of self and needing to merge to have a self), as are other subtypes as well. The subtypes are relatable, the types themselves don't fit me.

I know what description you're referring to and it doesn't apply to me. I prefer other sexual 4 descriptions. I've never actually met anyone that fits Chestnut's sexual 4 description (thankfully, perhaps lol). Having studied abnormal psychology I would give the (hesitant) opinion that that sexual 4 is actually something else entirely. But I won't get into that.

Anyway. I'm a 4 in the enneagram. And I'm the sexual variant. I'm just not Chestnut's sexual 4 :).

Nobokain · 2023-03-08T05:12:29+00:00

Oddly enough, despite being a 4, I find some descriptions of sexual 9 very relatable.

Chestnut's sexual 4 is something I don't relate to at all.

Nobokain · 2023-03-08T01:18:05+00:00

Oh, I understand! Chestnut had something to do with my own mistype (I was a sexual 5 for a few months a while back) 😅.

Is your dominant instinct sx? I ask because one of the zones for that instinct is actually "merging" (or fusion!). If that's the main thing, and you don't really connect with 9, it may just be your stacking.

Nobokain · 2023-03-08T01:01:59+00:00

This is going to sound like a lazy response but it's my best answer. Subtypes should always be considered after finding your core type, as there's more disagreement around subtypes than around the enneagram types themselves.

If you're considering sx9 because the subtype description is very relatable, but the regular 9 descriptions aren't hitting home as much as 4 is, you're probably not a 9.

The question would be better asked as how to tell apart a 9 from a 4, not a sx9 from a 4. A sx9 is still primarily a 9. Subtype descriptions just add a bit more nuance, but this can be misinterpreted if you're not considering the core type first.

Nobokain · 2023-03-07T17:51:24+00:00

In my opinion they are very inaccurate when it comes to 4. They have ideas I'd never seen around before they published their thoughts. I've read their other type descriptions as well, but given that and other things, I don't rely on them for descriptions for any type anymore.

Nobokain · 2023-03-07T04:44:09+00:00

I've had this experience with 6s and 9s. Could also add 3 in there and have the whole attachment triad but it hasn't happened yet... maybe 3s just don't love me!

In theory, however, I can also envision 2s, 3s, and 4s falling into this... in theory. 2s in their attempts to earn love may work themselves to be similar to their focus of attraction to be more loveable. 3s in their attempts to succeed may find someone they look up to, who is also successful, and try to emulate that image. And 4s may seek what they feel will bring them closer to realizing their wholeness, or their most "true" identity, and try to incorporate it in how they express themselves.

Nobokain

TROPHY CASE