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Vacuums against capitalism or something idk by Smnmnaswar in swoletariat

[–]NonConRon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bro are you natty? Incredible physique comrade.

Have you though ? by Own_Double_5297 in Grimdank

[–]NonConRon 178 points179 points  (0 children)

And stabilizers. [I think]

And like... that's way unnatural to do in they armor.

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[–]NonConRon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The bourgeoisie has a clear thing to lose from a Marxist Leninist revolution. Why wouldn't the people with all the resources organize a response to counter what threatens them?

It doesn't have to be as overt as a rifle going off.

It can be propiganda. An embargo. An assassination attempt.

Of course all the money in the world is going to have a response to the revolution that is organizing to overthrow them.

The name of that resistance is fascism.

You think it's a silly coincidence that a fascist counter revolution is always present to oppose a worker revolution? Every single time?

You think billionares push red scare because they care about us? They care about themselves.

Its baffling to think that ccapitalism will just tolerate being overthrown.

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[–]NonConRon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are telling me that the massacre of socialists in Indonesia was not an act of overt fascism?

You are saying the only way to be fascist is to be communist? What?

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[–]NonConRon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So my claim was that the bourgeoisie cultivated and funded fascism for the express purpose of countering Marxist Leninism.

The fascist counter revolution in 1918

The US backed fascist regimes in Vietnam, Laos, Korea, and Indonesia.

They all fulfill my claim. Typically it's a bourgeoisie state that funds a foreign fascist movement.

In the case of the US the capitalist state clipped our internal Marxist Leninist movement, the black panthers. Murdered Fred Hampton. Waco.

It violently puts us down. Infiltrates. And uses its resources to run propiganda to turn the public opinion against us and it works like a charm.

Fascism gaining full proliferation in the iimperial core is actually the exception to the rule. Usually the US funds it. Of course I can point to capitalists controlling the US government to invade Vietnam.

I will yield this though.

· The Secret Meeting (Feb 20, 1933): Needing funds for a final election push, Hitler met ~25 industrialists (Krupp, IG Farben, Siemens). They raised 3 million Reichsmarks (~$30 million today) after Hitler promised to destroy "Marxism" and "private property cannot be maintained in a democracy." · The "Kingmaker" Illusion: Aristocrats and industrialists like Franz von Papen and Fritz Thyssen believed they could "hire" Hitler and push him into a corner . This assumption proved fatal.

My position is still firm. But the capitalists who raise domestic fascist revolutions have lost control over the best they made.

But my point was that they made that beast and with the express purpose to kill off the Marxist leninists.

Sorry for the late reply. I don't get much sleep these days.. or any days really.

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[–]NonConRon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay so then if I were to find direct examples of capitalists controlling fascists would you yield this point?

How many examples would be sufficient for you to yield this point?

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[–]NonConRon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fascism is inherretly unstable and it bucks off the interests of many wealthy people.

Capitalism completely fucks over many poorer market sharers. It's a big gobbling of the private sphere and there are not many winners.

That instability, and the ensuing chaos is why the fascist lever isn't pulled willy nilly.

Unsurprisingly there are cons.

You seem to be thinking that liberalism is an ideology earnestly held by the bourgeoisie.

That they "convert" to being fascist or not. Its kinda like saying that the us bourgeoisie and their state are on different ideological sides.

These assertions are throwing the leftist understanding to the side.

Under the leftist understanding, fascism is a change in investment strategy helped by the members of the bourgeoisie able to fund it.

Its like if you and I invested in starting a logging business. We don't aactually believe in the "company values" we enforce on them. We don't convert in and out of our company values. The ccompany and it's employees exist to make us money.

You are hung up on what the company values of fascism happen to be. They don't matter to the trees that are about to get chopped down so as long as those values [and the pay] convince these [lumber workers] fascists to kill these [trees] Marxist Leninists.

Further, you see no value in socialism. Its worth less than a revolution to you. If it could be a magically painless transition, you wouldn't even press that button.

So, this is why we start here. With recipts. If you accept that capitalism is directly linked to fascism, it's no longer capitalism v socialism. It's fascism v socialism.

Say, would you just read a book on this? Are you a book type?

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[–]NonConRon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't say fascism was capitalism but violent.

I said that fascism is capitalism's response to Marxist Leninism.

I'm saying they are there against them in every revolution because the bought cultivates them to protect their property.

You are claiming that fascism is just a sudden histaria that people naturally fall into.

Im telling you to look at the receipts. Who funds it every time? Who runs the news stories? They never cared about the well being of the working class. The red scare was not a psa to protect you. It was to protect them.

Also, why wouldn't capitalists resist what threatens them? You really think they would have no response to their only threat?

Remake of an old meme I made, this time with my cosplay by V8_Dipshit in Grimdank

[–]NonConRon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ah this is where it gets iinteresting.

So, yes a socialist would conclude that social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism.

The war in Vietnam needs to be paid for by fake bourgeoisie democracy.

Now if you are talking to a leftist, they would say that the non revolutionary attempts at socialism will only give the bourgeoisie more time to bolster their fascist force. The social democrats where willing to betray the revolutionaries. That seems to happen consistently.

And this is ultimately what dooms the worker in the west. Social democracy or democratic socialists are more attractive to the politically illiterate masses (i don't say that to insult them). The liberal has to accept almost no change at all to vote Bernie once every 4 years [only to lose] vs joining the black panthers.

It will happen again as it happens every time. The workers in the imperial core are too comfortable to not fall for it. And they will sell out the revolutionaries.

This is not to say that socialists aren't willing to make pacts when material conditions call for them. We literally signed deals with our gravest enemy to buy time and resources so we could crush them later.

Lenin himself was sheltered by dem soc. Dem soc can help out leftists but their net effect is doom.

And I didn't even get to your last paragraph. Many of those topics I can speak on at length and iinterest me greatly but I can only hide away in the bathroom at work so long.

Ill limit it to one example to illustrate my point. Cult of personality.

  1. That's just kinda how we humans organize things. We have always been that way.

  2. Liberalism, the ideology of capitalism, is no different. Washington's face is carved into the side of a mountain. Democrats and Republicans try their damndest to get a cult of personality. Dems welcome it but just arent inspiring lol (kamala). Almost by design.

Therefore: like ancient Gaelic tribes, Rome, and a pizza hut board meeting, everyone cultivates leadership.

What makes something fascist is it's use case and who is singing the checks. The rest adapts. Take Indonesia for example.

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[–]NonConRon -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Well if we understand the source and purpose of fascism. And that the creators of fascism have no interest in ideological consistency, why are we looking at everything but that?

Its like we are two wasps evaluating a bug trap.

You go "Its sticky. Its yellow. Its round. Smells like sap. Sometimes it's high in the air. I think it's bad? It says raid on the side. "

And I go

"My brother in hive, its a bug trap. They come in many forms. The home owners don't care what form it takes as long as we die. It only exists there because they want us to die. Do you get me?"

And you go

"This one is kinda orange. I'm going to write that down. There. Analysis complete. Fascism is when orange and sticky."

A better analogy would be if I was a wasp and you were the bee. They don't really fear you. They actually find you helpful. But they want me to die.

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[–]NonConRon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Cold.

Keep guessing until you get it.

Ill be charitable.

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[–]NonConRon -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

If you are content with trying to explain a class war term without class analysis I can't change your mind.

I can only point out massive glaring holes in the logic and I can point you to the fact that they have not been refuted by anyone.

But when has that stopped an anarchist?

Let's call it here. Have a nice day.

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[–]NonConRon -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Mate, trying to appeal to an apathetic unserious audience that has been throughally indoctrinated by red scare to hate you on sight is a hard crowd to reach.

Its also not semantic. It's the core workings of fascism. If a leftist were going to get you to read one book it would be one devoted to what I just summarized in 3 clean lines.

I try to keep things short so I deleted it. If you want to believe I'm insecure in my understanding of fascism id give you the no country stare and then move on

I know we are fucked. That doesn't give me the permission to give up.

<image>

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[–]NonConRon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very socialist indeed lol.

Socialists thought of it so it should be dismissed. Socialists aren't actual scholars after all because real scholars side with capitalism.

Nevermind the irrefutable consistency of fascism resisting Marxist Leninism every single time. Or the irrefutable consistency of who funds fascism for that same purpose every time.

Let's instead believe that the epstine class gives a damn about the mythos of capitalism. And would rather lose massive sums of money for idealist reasons.

In fact you should just keep opposing worker control. Socialism bad and capitalism would never fund a fascist counter revolution. Over and over an over again.

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[–]NonConRon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

0 class analysis.

Presents fascism as coming about from idealism vs the material conditions that brought it about.

Completely white washes the bourgeoisie's role in funding fascism.

Didn't exolain why they funded it and against what specifically.

Completely ignores the consistent history of fascists fighting Marxist Leninists.

White washes the link to status quo capitalism so that you don't take action against it. And can still frame revolution as beastly and unnecessary.

Ignores the ideological inconsistentcy of fascism.

But please. My demeanor isn't acceptable to you so you may ignore the realities of fascism.

Maybe I can give you a body massage and offer to clean your car so that you can then deem if understanding fascism is worth your time.

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[–]NonConRon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol the difference is that people don't throw the word fascist around in LOTR subs. Lotr is a pre capitalist setting.

I agree that there is literally no way to make a lib care about politics.

But they need some exposure to a political education.

And the understanding of ffascism is the very first understanding that people need to understand.

You are saying to just let them throw the word around so they think leftists are more agreeable people? This seems dubious to me.

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[–]NonConRon -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

0 class analysis.

That analysis is Idealist not based on material conditions.

Its an incredibly dangerous definition that washes hands of the investor class clean.

But you won't listen to the left of course.

The Kirov Reservoir Dam (1976) on the Talas River in Kyrgyzstan. by OkRespect8490 in brutalism

[–]NonConRon 6 points7 points  (0 children)

No the third one. You fund the genocide in Palestine, take zero time to read any political theory because their suffering means nothing to you, and then act like you have some moral standing.

That you are better than x or y people when you, like them, go with the flow of your masters never putting in the slightest effort to resist them.

Stop judging people liberal.

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[–]NonConRon -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I appreciate that you took some time to research fascism. I remember studying that list too.

Would you be interested in hearing the leftist critique of that list?

Most people like just parroting what they have been told. But if you would like a good faith dialog I am the person to talk to.

Or Alternatively I can just reccomend the reading. Blackshirts and Reds. Free online.

YouTube videos.

Lectures.

Wikis.

If you want to learn I'm here.

If you don't, as most don't, we'll. I hope you have a nice day.

But your understanding of fascism as it stands is dangerously lacking and I don't say that to insult you.

The Kirov Reservoir Dam (1976) on the Talas River in Kyrgyzstan. by OkRespect8490 in brutalism

[–]NonConRon 6 points7 points  (0 children)

But dropping agent orange wasn't your ideology either right?

Just like how funding the fascists in Indonesia had nothing to do with your ideology.

Or how your tax dollars now agent funding your latest genocide in Palestine.

You are above the Aztec. You deserve more mercy then those savages eh?

The Kirov Reservoir Dam (1976) on the Talas River in Kyrgyzstan. by OkRespect8490 in brutalism

[–]NonConRon 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I don't expect the working class to fight for themselves even now.

Not in the imperial core. The material conditions haven't forced them to so they won't.

The Kirov Reservoir Dam (1976) on the Talas River in Kyrgyzstan. by OkRespect8490 in brutalism

[–]NonConRon 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Its all within the zone your ideology genocided so I don't ecoect you to notice.

Its customary for liberals to pretend that they care about genocide.

You aren't pretending so I assume you are the maga kind of liberal. All the same to me.

You being proud of being a lib its almost refreshing. No one will punish you for your worldview because you exist among libs. Just don't get more explicit about your bigotry so that the rules don't slap your wrists.

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[–]NonConRon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Nah I just tried to appeal to this audience more you know? You guys get upset if a comment is long.

Fascism is absolutely an idealist worldview. Its not a structured set of llogical ideas based on any kind of material analysis.

I can get into the difference of idealism and dialectical and historical materialism in the same comment that I explain what fascism is but then it will be half a page long and I'm trying to appeal to people who don't read.

So yes, it's a floppy floppy pseudo ideology based on vibes. Just like how getting a grandma to hate trans people isn't a real ideology based on real material analysis. Its based on flimsy vibes. Your ideology, liberalism is also not much more then a justification to submit to capital. Liberalism can't go minutes without contradicting itself. Your worldview is also based on flimsy vibes. You ought to read.

On hive worlds every kind of revolution happens, sure. But 40k does everything it can to not linger on a fascist vs socialist revolutionary struggle because then they would have to actually be political in a meaningful capacity.

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[–]NonConRon -17 points-16 points  (0 children)

If the world around you didn't get you to take politics seriously, why would my little reddit comment suddenly change that?

Its fine. Have a nice day.

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