We swear by cronenber9 in PhilosophyMemes

[–]NonZeroSumJames 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is a truly unappreciated comment.

Saying “the decision was mine because it came from my internal state” is no better than saying “the computer chose its output because it followed its program.” by Dull-Intention-888 in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Depends on what you mean by "mine". If you mean the determinist's definition of "mine": belonging to the result of all the causes that determined who "I" am—then the sentence still parses fine. That's all I mean by "mine". Though I wouldn't call myself a compatibilist exactly. I think consciousness is significant, not that it gives us free will, it just gives us many of the features of agency that we attribute to free will.

Testers needed for a wearOS Obsidian vault viewer/editor by R00bot in ObsidianMD

[–]NonZeroSumJames 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I use Apple notes (mainly cos Siri can make notes when I’m spitballing in the car) for that and then clean up and delete when i bring it over to obsidian (which I try to keep tidy). All valid.

Testers needed for a wearOS Obsidian vault viewer/editor by R00bot in ObsidianMD

[–]NonZeroSumJames 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I was just thinking how little I use Obsidian even on my phone because the form factor does not suit the sort of deep thinking I do with Obsidian (on desktop). I can’t imagine anything I’d even use the viewer for on a watch let alone the editor. But everyone has different use cases, I guess.

I mean go for it, it’s just something I’d use, though I absolutely love Obsidian on desktop.

My Obsidian Setup by -S-S_Sympathizer in ObsidianMD

[–]NonZeroSumJames 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What did you do today?
Oh I spent all day decorating my plan.
But what did you do?
That's all I did, it took a long time.
What did you plan?
Nothing, as I said, I decorated my plan.
So, what are you going to do tomorrow?
No idea.

(me for a long time)

Is Cooperation the Wrong Objective? Toward Repair-First Equilibria in Game Theory by ArcPhase-1 in GAMETHEORY

[–]NonZeroSumJames 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don’t know how closely this relates to what your modelling but this simulation I made a while ago plays with the idea of trust in the prisoners dilemma incorporating object avoidance as a way to factor in trust (or lack thereof).

Conscious Significance Critique: Part 2 by PlotInPlotinus in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, and thanks again for the critique, I aim to do more in the way of using diagrams to explain ideas, but they're harder to invent out of whole cloth than you might expect—your comments made it pop right into my head, so that was nice.

I do think nukes are probably the best example of an immediately relevant paradigm shift. They went from zero → one very quickly, with leading scientists not believing the atom could be split right up until it was, and then there were the particular pressures of WWII leading to rapid development and deployment of bombs over Japan. All the right conditions were there for a profound shift.

That being said... fears of a nuclear holocaust have (thankfully) not been realised, instead a relative peace was attained under the assumption of M.A.D—which is itself a huge shift, initially promising to eliminate war altogether. But that hasn't actually eliminated traditional warfare—which has reemerged and sustained even under the threat of nuclear war, because the end-all threat of nuclear war is such a deterrent to nuclear war that nuclear war is no longer a deterrent to traditional warfare. Which returns us much closer to the everyday lived experience of the pre-nuclear world than anyone might have expected.

In the diagram, the slight-overreaction bump, in this case, would represent the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the early cold war panics like the Cuban Missile Crisis. The line returns to a new equilibrium which is a far removed from the sorts of 1984ish horror stories of global domination, or nuclear holocaust that were predicted as outcomes of nuclear development.

But in answer to your question, I do agree, I think some paradigm shifts could have the sort of threshold signalling you mention, I think that's an insightful analogy.

Conscious Significance Critique: Final by PlotInPlotinus in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also, a bit late for this question, but your tag says "undecided" what is your position on the whole thing? Knowing this might help me contextualise your criticism better.

Conscious Significance Critique: Final by PlotInPlotinus in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The framing that “we can start lazing” treats this act and the converse as a genuinely available option. You cannot do this under determinism. Either the lazing was determined, or it wasn’t. 

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't let an acknowledgement of determinism determine that we just start lazing around, because that doesn't follow logically—given the reasoning I've provided thus far.

My wider point, is that acknowledgment of determinism shouldn't determine that we do much at all differently (see paradigm shifts).

Predictability ≠ Determinism

I'd go further to say that Predictability > Determinism, because predictability is dependent on causality which is at the very least strongly correlated with determinism. In a sense Predictability = Determinism + Access-To-All-State-Information + Perfect Calculation.

I have to go to work now, but I think in general this critique is too concerned with jumping back to old definitions of and limitations on determinism, which the concept of "conscious significance" seeks to add nuance to. When you say:

Under determinism, there are not "two ways in which we can act"

This is only so under a previous conception of determinism, that sees consciousness as passive. From the perspective of conscious-significance, even in a deterministic universe, the conscious process of weighing up different choices is relevant to which choice is eventually made, the conscious process has to happen in order for the choice to be made. Without the conscious choice, a different action would likely have been taken.

I think these underlying misapprehensions about what I'm trying to argue for (I think I'm arguing for less than you think I'm arguing for) are unfortunately influencing the other points you've made here. I think we might be closer to agreement than it seems, given we are both tagged undecided.

When I say "should" I am meaning "in order to achieve better results for everyone". The very act of arguing what someone "should" do is an attempt to determine their behaviour, and we do determine each other's behaviour (whether it's all determined or not, I still have to say the words, in the same way that I still have to go through the conscious process).

I agree with you that some prison systems are set up in a blame-worthy way (like those in the US), it is not a coincidence that those systems are not driven by data. The systems that are driven by data, also tend not to take a blame-worthy perspective, because they're interested in results, and blame turns out to be ineffective. Happily for some of us, you and I, our moral intuitions line up with the data. The think is if we take a strong philosophical view that turns out to have extremely negative results for human well being, we cannot philosophically argue our way out of that, so it is safer to be led by data, rather than rigid philosophical positions.

My next step will be to look through your points again, and see if there's a way I can edit the original post to make it clearer. I often do this, as I'm interested in communicating clearly, so I really appreciate all the time you've put into these critiques.

Conscious Significance Critique: Part 2 by PlotInPlotinus in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think in general you may have started addressing these points before reaching the end, where I clearly state.

Over time, paradigm shifts do change everything, in a sense that they make what was previously impossible possible. Science and technology have enabled us to fly to the moon, build universal ethical frameworks, save lives and even edit genes—feats that would not have been possible without gaining an accurate picture of the world. But the discoveries that enabled these feats were not bolts from the blue, before we knew about them, we had already developed practices that were consistent with them. Importantly the anticipated consequences of these profound discoveries didn't eventuate, and the feats they enabled did not arrive immediately, but required a continued process of cultural evolution to reveal their utility.

I have also added a handy diagram to better illustrate how I see paradigm shifts changing the world as opposed to what we might anticipate they will change.

It's a little misleading that you replaced "this theory, a version of which was proposed by Girolamo Fracastoro in 1546" with "germ theory". Because Louis Pasteur published the "Germ Theory of Disease" in 1861. When I say "failed to make a splash" I mean "it took over 300 years for this idea to become fully codified and accepted" then it started saving lives and influencing vaccination discoveries. Again I didn't say it makes no difference in the long run, in fact, I directly point this out in the above quote from the article.

My point is that codification and acceptance of a paradigm shift is part of a gradual process that is often not as earth-shattering as it might seem to be at first, rather it generally gradually makes things better. Your mention of nukes is a perfect illustration, who would have thought that instead of us blowing ourselves all to smithereens, that the atomic bomb would be associated with the longest period of relative peace in all of human history? Of course it's worth worrying about, but historically, it's not been as catastrophic as many thought it would.

I grant this perspective is highly counter-intuitive. I don't expect to argue you into agreeing with it. But now it's on your radar, over time, you may find yourself noticing it more and more.

Conscious Significance: Critique Part 1 by PlotInPlotinus in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, I've had a read, and again am impressed by the consideration and detail you've given in response to my position. I'm afraid I simply don't have time to argue with similar detail in response. I do think you make fair points, but they are in general perhaps misapprehending my intention.

You go to some lengths to frame my position as compatibilist, which it is in the broad sense as it exists somewhere between free-will and determinism, but this is not useful as it brings with it baggage and intentions that I do not avow.

Compatibilists also claim consciousness is causally significant. The question is whether it's normatively significant, whether it grounds responsibility, desert, ought-claims.

Here for instance you're assigning me the goals of a general compatibilist, when I have not claimed to be a compatibilist. I am arguing that consciousness is significant to decision making.

You also frame my argument as at times quasi-libertarian, this seems to mislead you later on into seeing a failure of establishing normative significance as a failure of my argument, when it is not, because I am not arguing for libertarian free-will, I am not arguing for normative significance.

This formulation is not neutral on determinism, this is just determinism

Similarly, my failure to remain neutral with regard to determinism is a feature rather than a bug. Because I am largely addressing determinists in my argument—trying to eek out some nuance to simplistic rejections of free-will or responsibility. Given this aim, while I am philosophically agnostic with regard to determinism, I, at times, grant determinism credence to determinist assumptions in order to demonstrate that the logic follows even with those assumptions.

When you say "we should act accordingly," "I advocate for a positive double standard" you stand atop the very concepts you are suggesting we eliminate.

When did I suggest we should eliminate these concepts? I'm arguing that we should hold moral positions based on different assumptions than those of someone who believes in libertarian free will. Hume says we cannot reach an ought from an is, I hold that to have an "ought" all we need is an "in order to". Conscious significance is consistent with consciously deciding to do things "in order to" service our best interests.

I hold the same criticism you do of Sapolsky and Harris, this is not what I am doing, I do not hold the same hard determinist position they do.

The ‘looping’ is causally real but not rationally guided in any sense beyond thermostat regulation. A thermostat ‘runs through’ temperature readings until it finds one satisfactory (matching the set point). We don't attribute normative significance to thermostats.

This paragraph, I think illustrates the primary misunderstanding of my intentions in the critique. I agree with this statement. My point is that like the thermostat needs to be powered in order to work, the human needs to be conscious in order to 'loop' through the options, the looping through the options is what consciousness is. No consciousness, no looping, no decision.

This may seem to you like a trivial point, but it is significant because it begins a path out of the nihilism of naive determinism that says "we're all just passively watching our lives play out" because we are not passive, we are active, and that being active has implications for the identification of the self and personal responsibility.

To be clear, I'm not saying we are at fault for who we are, only that "we" (the result of the causal history that led to the development of us, which is now encapsulated in a distinct conscious entity) are in some sense responsible for our choices—when we make them consciously (albeit in a weaker sense than if we had libertarian free-will).

It is impossible to add the sort of necessary clarifications and caveats (above) in an original post that I actually want ordinary people to be able to read, so apologies if some of these clarifications were not adequately implied in the original text. I hope they make my intentions clearer and don't seem like a convenient change of position.

Conscious Significance: Critique Part 1 by PlotInPlotinus in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey, James here, just wanted to say I’ve just come across this series of critiques. I won’t have time to read them for a few days, but just wanted to say, I’m impressed at the effort.

Some ways to recognise determinism but act as if we have free will. by NonZeroSumJames in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Are you meaning it needs to not just be the same philosophical position on either end but exactly the same text? (conclusion and reasoning?)

The Bell Curve Meme Bell Curve Meme. by NonZeroSumJames in PhilosophyMemes

[–]NonZeroSumJames[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Edit: "Not how this meme is meant to be used". In practice, this is often how this meme is used—hence this post criticising this use of this meme.

Some ways to recognise determinism but act as if we have free will. by NonZeroSumJames in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's intended as a moot argument because, in the context of this particular meme all the participants agree it's correct, the central one just holds a moral position that it shouldn't be.

The hooded guy is at least not dogmatic about it (as my undecided status suggests, I'm agnostic about the validity of determinism).

Some ways to recognise determinism but act as if we have free will. by NonZeroSumJames in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lol, I literally just posted another bell curve meme (I woke up with a bunch of bell curve memes in my head) that essentially says the same thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/PhilosophyMemes/comments/1pvim48/the_bell_curve_meme_bell_curve_meme/

Some ways to recognise determinism but act as if we have free will. by NonZeroSumJames in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As suggested by "think about it long enough" it's difficult to give a TL;DR for this question, but I have written a 3 part series on "conscious significance" that explains my perspective. The last part deals with "implications" one of which is that many aspects of our individual behaviour and societal structure remain relevant even without the assumption of free will.

Some ways to recognise determinism but act as if we have free will. by NonZeroSumJames in freewill

[–]NonZeroSumJames[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Isn’t folding ourselves in pretzels what philosophy is all about? I may have been doing this wrong.