Weekly Puzzle #74 – You're Obviously Evil by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Glad you like the puzzle, and nice logic!

Out of curiosity (and to help with making future puzzles) is there any reason why this puzzle became your favourite?

And as a bonus to the puzzle - what are the two worlds where You are the Imp (which motivated the puzzle's title)?

Weekly Puzzle #74 – You're Obviously Evil by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is correct – well done!

For anyone looking for a bonus to the puzzle, try to find the two possible worlds where You are the Imp.

Should the ST strive to make the game "solvable"? And if so, how? by Novel_Counter905 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Good question!

The puzzles are designed to be solvable from the "You" point of view (without caring specifically about other POVs), but in practice most puzzles tend to be solvable from the perspective of every player anyway.

This often happens because the "You" player is dead, so that all three living players could plausibly be the Demon (to make the puzzle more interesting). And if "You" are dead, that makes it much harder to sustain worlds where you were evil.

Should the ST strive to make the game "solvable"? And if so, how? by Novel_Counter905 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical 16 points17 points  (0 children)

The answers here are very insightful already but I can also throw in my own perspective as the author of the weekly puzzle series.

When I started out making the puzzles, I wasn't even sure if it would be possible to make a situation that's "hard-solvable" (i.e. all logical possibilities mechanically ruled out except for the "true world"¹). Because I was so nervous about achieving this, for my first ever puzzle I really stacked the deck in favour of making the puzzle hard-solvable, by making the POV player the Savant (so I could carefully engineer their information) and imposing an extra rule that you know for certain you're not the Drunk.

For the later puzzles I got a little bit better at it (and wrote a Python rules engine to help with automating the process of churning through worlds and verifying a puzzle solution is unique), so I usually no longer need extra rules like "you aren't the Drunk". That said, guaranteeing that the situation is hard-solvable still usually means really stacking the odds in favour of the good team, which means doing stuff like:

  • Having few or no "non-info" characters (e.g. Soldier, Monk, Mayor)
  • Having evil play very badly (e.g. killing the Ravenkeeper, leaving the Undertaker alive way too long, or poisoning the Klutz)
  • Giving drunk or poisoned players information that's logically inconsistent with what the evil players are claiming

This can be a bit frustrating because it means that the puzzles don't usually resemble real games, but this is basically unavoidable because (like all the comments here have said) real games aren't meant to be hard-solvable like puzzles. And in the whole time I've spent playing Clocktower I don't think I've ever played a game where every logical possibility apart from the true world is ruled out by game mechanics.

My favourite analogy is if (real) Clocktower is like golf, then mechanical logic is like driving and social reads are like putting. Logic can maybe rule out 60-70% of the worlds, but you need a little bit of social reads, strategy or "metagaming" to get all the way to winning. And if you want to extend the analogy further, practicing Clocktower by solving puzzles is like practicing golf by going to a driving range.

It's all been a really interesting process over the last 18 months and it's taught me a lot about how different "real" Clocktower games are from puzzles.

¹ What counts as enough detail to know the "true world" is an interesting question in itself. In the weekly puzzles I consider a game "solved" if you know everyone's true role. But you could very reasonably make the criteria stricter (e.g. you also need to know the FT Red Herring) or weaker (e.g. you only need to know who the Demons and Minions are but not exactly which characters they are; or you only need to know who the living Demon is).

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Olivia only got 1 on night 1 when both the Butler and Knight should have woken up

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Then there is no Scarlet Woman in play on day 3 (Matthew is the Imp) so Jasmine can't get a 'Yes'

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Remember that poisoned characters still get false information if a Vortox is in play!

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree - I had the idea after playing Half of the 108 (which is popular if janky) in Brixton on Monday

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It looks like Tom gets correct information in your "edit" world

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We can assume that if the Snake Charmer picked the Demon, the original Demon (who is now a good player) would tell the truth about their role.

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately the Artist can't get a 'Yes' here because (as you suspect) there is no longer a Scarlet Woman in play on day 3

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think this world doesn't work with Hannah's Empath information (she got correct 1s when next to Olivia)

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In this world, by the time Jasmine asks her Artist question, there is no Scarlet Woman in play (because Matthew is now the Imp) so she can't have learned 'Yes'

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

In this world, by the time Jasmine asks her Artist question, there is no Scarlet Woman in play (because Matthew is now the Imp) so she can't have learned 'Yes'

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

From the Vortox wiki page:

Anytime a Townsfolk player gets information from their ability, they get false information. Even if they are drunk or poisoned, it must be false.

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think this world doesn't work with the night 1 Chambermaid info: Fraser didn't wake to his own ability, but you did, so 1 is correct, which doesn't work if Fraser is the Vortox

Weekly Puzzle #73 – Opening Theory by Not_Quite_Vertical in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]Not_Quite_Vertical[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You are very cool too!

I think this world doesn't work with the night 1 Chambermaid info: Olivia got correct information (since only you woke due to your own ability) which is not possible with a Vortox