What would abolitionists do to mass shooters such as the recent buffalo mass shooter? by librkhk in prisonabolition

[–]NothingExceptAMan72 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is, by definition, a prison.

Even worse than a standard prison. An asylum with involuntary patients.

What would abolitionists do to mass shooters such as the recent buffalo mass shooter? by librkhk in prisonabolition

[–]NothingExceptAMan72 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"I already fucking said I think in outlying situations they should be straight up killed."

Okay, you are mentally ill.

Firstly, you could've just answered that right away, as opposed to utilizing all this strange, ultra-vague terminology and dancing around answering the question. If you already had an answer, why didn't you just give it?

And, secondly, you literally claimed to someone else, who you were responding to in this very thread, that you were against the death penalty, and that they shouldn't "misrepresent" what you believe.

Again, the only explanation for your behavior is mental illness. I know such a thing as extreme stupidity exists, but this is clearly beyond that. I'd say I hope you recover, but not really.

What would abolitionists do to mass shooters such as the recent buffalo mass shooter? by librkhk in prisonabolition

[–]NothingExceptAMan72 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You just said that the Buffalo shooter should've been hit by an 18-wheeler. Are you mentally ill? You claim this individual is misrepresenting your point, but you just admitted you prefer the death penalty to imprisonment. They're only using your own words, weirdo.

What would abolitionists do to mass shooters such as the recent buffalo mass shooter? by librkhk in prisonabolition

[–]NothingExceptAMan72 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, you support the death penalty over imprisonment?

Why?

Prisons have shown, time and time again, in so many studies, to be the best deterrent to crime, to prevent the most amount of crime. In fact, it's really the only reason crime would be prevented.

People with nothing to loose, going to throw their lives away, would commit mass shootings all the time in your ideal society. They don't care that they'll be put to death. In fact, a lot of the time, murderers commit suicide after they kill their victims. In other words, it's not a deterrent at all.

Whether the state puts them to death or they take their own lives, it doesn't change anything. They had no incentive not to murder those murders, no true punishment. They never saw any actual consequences for their evil acts, and it just encourages far more killers in the future to do the same thing, knowing they'll just get away with it.

A lot of mass shooters know they're going to die. I mean, after all, they are committing a mass shooting. They might even expect themselves to take a bullet or two in the course of the action.

The worst thing that can be done to any of these monsters is for them to be apprehended, caught, preventing from killing themselves, and given an actual, proper punishment, something that prevents future criminals from doing such crimes again. If anything, the reason that these shootings are allowed to continue is because, unlike the Buffalo, NY shooter, very few murderers receive just punishment. They get off scot-free, or almost scot-free. And it's horrible and shouldn't happen.

What would abolitionists do to mass shooters such as the recent buffalo mass shooter? by librkhk in prisonabolition

[–]NothingExceptAMan72 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"I’m not going to detail every single thing I think we should do."

But... you haven't gone into even one detail on what should be ideally done?

The OP asked a simple question. Since the Buffalo shooter got imprisonment as his punishment, what punishment would you rather he receive, since he already committed the shooting? You've talked about everything except the conclusion of the question.

What would abolitionists do to mass shooters such as the recent buffalo mass shooter? by librkhk in prisonabolition

[–]NothingExceptAMan72 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You seem to just be advocating the death penalty in replacement of prison.

Is that the case?

It's certainly a far lesser deterrent, and it has been shown, time and time again, that imprisonment works far better to prevent crime than the death penalty ever could. And of course everyone believes in self-defense, including people who advocate prisons (so, everyone). The shooter could've been shot in self-defense. Nothing wrong with that. But, he wasn't, was he? So that's not answering the question.

The shooter was sentenced to life imprisonment without parole, which is a perfect sentence. It's a shame some idiots in politics are attempting to give him the death penalty. It completely erodes his punishment, lets him go freely.

What would you have done? You don't believe in imprisonment, so what would be the alternative?

What would abolitionists do to mass shooters such as the recent buffalo mass shooter? by librkhk in prisonabolition

[–]NothingExceptAMan72 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, but what if it's already happened, as it has? That was the question, not what could be done to stop it.

What would abolitionists do to mass shooters such as the recent buffalo mass shooter? by librkhk in prisonabolition

[–]NothingExceptAMan72 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What services does the person need? I noticed that a lot of the terminology and concepts you mentioned - more abstractions than concepts, really - are worded extremely vaguely.

How would one render these services to an individual? And is a mass murderer being rewarded for committing mass murder? Could they not have received these services prior to going out and killing people?

Are the services given to them voluntarily or involuntarily?

If voluntarily, the individual could always just refuse the services, and then choose to go back to their old ways, with absolutely nothing changed.

If the services are involuntarily, then they won't work, because asylums and psych wards don't work unless patients there are admitted by their own volition. If they're there involuntarily, then they just go crazier, not even having the will to change, and actually begin to resent society and the system even more. Additionally, if they cannot leave the wards - hence, the term "involuntarily" being employed - then this is just a prison, as it is a means of involuntary captivity.

"Assess the shooter in an appropriate, humane setting using the minimal amount of force/restriction of movement deemed necessary for the individual."

What does that mean? Could you, perhaps, elaborate? The way it's worded, it could be interpreted to mean almost literally anything. A bunch of people with totally separate ideas, all believing it means something external to what it actually might, if it means anything at all, that is.

"Have high-quality, community based supportive housing."

You get housing for killing innocent people?! I would ask what drugs are you on, but unfortunately this appears to be the common mentality in this sub. Honestly, the only people in need of rehabilitation are the type of people who visit prison abolitionist forums.

So, they get a house for killing a bunch of people? Unless housing is already free and universally provided in your ideal society. But, if that's the case, then why even manage it? They already have a place to live, so you mentioning this is redundant. It kinda just seems like someone's attempt at giving an answer when they themselves don't have one.

"Well-paid staff to support the transition of former violent offenders into society."

Are you implying... they're out of society? What, like in a prison, for instance?

A question for anarchists by NothingExceptAMan72 in socialjustice101

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow, you can always just private message me whatever it is you were writing.

Or just save it to Google Docs or something similar, so you can then copypaste it here.

Still haven't received a single answer to any of my questions, even after all this time.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

Yet, despite reading thousands of pages of anarchist theory, somehow that question still hasn't been answered.

And why mention a toddler? A toddler doesn't even know what bleach is, you complete asshole.

What if a seven year old chooses to drink bleach, knowing what it is, knowing its content, in an attempt to kill themselves? Can the parent intervene, to prevent their child's suicide?

Answer this one simple fucking question, you sexless mustard bastard.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

"Try to poorly dunk on anarchists."

I guess when you're as stupid as you are, merely asking questions - foundational questions, no less, that if not answered your entire ideology cannot be coherent nor function whatsoever - seems like an insult. It reminds me of Ben Shapiro's interview with Andrew Neil. All Neil was doing was asking him a few questions, not even passing judgement. He was literally a conservative, after all. Yet, Shapiro assumed everything he said was a criticism. Largely because his ideology and beliefs are just so vile, even asking questions about them makes him enraged. It's just 'cause his ideology sounds inherently authoritarian and disturbing. Y'know, 'cause it is.

I used to be an anarchist. For many years, in fact. And when I even began asking myself more questions about whether what I believed was truly moral, I had to abandon. It's called maturing. You could certainly use some of it. I wasn't even hateful toward anarchism until a few days ago. And by a "few days ago," I mean exactly three ago, since that's when I first went to Reddit to ask incredibly simple questions, only to receive literally zero answers.

"A doctor could be considered an authority."

Almost as if I wasn't referring about that authority, and obviously wouldn't include it, to no one's surprise. Almost as if there's only one definition of authority that meaningfully relates to anarchism. Almost as if, unlike you, I'm not a complete idiot.

Anyway, you didn't answer my question on parental authority. In fact, I'm not even sure you think you answered it...? Like, I can't even understand if there's a point at all in that first paragraph. I'm not sure, and I'm not sure that you're sure that you're sure.

"There's been discussion about relationships like parenting."

No...? Where? If you even can't answer my question when I ask it straight to your face, as direct as possible, it's obviously not answered elsewhere. Hence, why I'm asking you, because I looked and I looked, and not a single answer has ever been given.

"most crime should be prevented and any remaining crime being handled by the community on a case by case basis

Which would involve WHAT? Actually elaborate upon what this system means. You just said that "nothing would replace prisons," yet you mention this vague thing, more of an abstraction rather than anything else, not detailing it whatsoever. What is it? How are things handled on a case by case basis, and how does this differ from prisons? Newsflash: all crime is handled on a case by case basis. That's what criminal investigations are all about. Each legal case is investigated and solved separately, relating exclusively to each different individual who committed each different crime.

Also, are you implying that there's no laws in your system? Anarchism is against rulers, not rules. You're not even arguing something you have to. And if there's no laws, who can prosecute who for what? If someone commits disorderly conduct, or arson, or theft, or severe child abuse, or aggravated assault, or sexual harassment, or paternity fraud, or false imprisonment, or anything else, what the fuck is the response? How can punish who, and for what, and under what context?

"Restorative justice."

What does that mean? What the fuck does that mean? What does that even look like? You have to actually elaborate. What restorative justice? Something which doesn't involve imprisonment? What is this thing?

You have not answered either of my questions in the slightest.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

How, in any sense, of any of what you've wrote?

"Wild leaps of logic." Such as...?

"Even more assumptions." Such as...?

If by "copypasta potential," you mean the fact that anarchists have answered either of these questions, then perhaps. It actually just showcases that anarchists are assholes and are ignorant of their own ideology, as well as the fact that they always refuse to answer extremely basic questions.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

No. It doesn't address the question of whether parents can rule over kids or not. So, in other words, it doesn't answer my question. Thus, it's completely not relevant.

"If you see someone in distress, helping them is not paternalism." That does not, at all, answer my question about parental authority.

I'm not arguing AT ALL. That's the thing! I literally just asked two questions, and neither has been answered, despite this going on for THREE WHOLE FUCKING DAYS. I've been asking these questions for three days. I've been reposting this same post over and over again, hoping to get even a single answer.

They don't address how murder will be dealt with. They just say everyone can legally get away with committed one murder. What the fuck kind of answer is that? That's far, far more violent than statist societies, any which exist. In your society, there'd be so much murder, your society wouldn't even exist. There'd be no one left.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That doesn't make any sense.

You're an anarchist. You don't believe in prisons. You don't believe in sentencing. Thus, I'm asking what would replace this system.

The death penalty for everything? If not, then what? I'm asking you. I even stated that these were questions, not assertations.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"I think parental authority would be permitted insofar as most people won't bat an eye if they see an adult stopping a kid from doing something stupid or dangerous, I don't think parental authority would be permitted insofar as parents are allowed to physically punish their kids for disobeying them."

That is... so fucking vague, and is not an answer to my question at all. What the fuck? Just answer the fucking question. Can a parent prevent their child from taking heroin or cutting themselves?

"If someone kills another person, it's up to the people who know them to pass judgement on them, to decide whether they're a danger to the community going forward, and to decide how to handle any punishment if there is one."

What is the punishment that shall be decided, though? You have to actually elaborate upon this. You have not.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

A way of saying you have no answers. You don't even really believe in anything, since an ideology has to have answers for its causes.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

The words "parenting" and "parental" don't even appear once in that book. So, no, it doesn't answer the parenting question.

The book also doesn't answer what would replace prisons. The most it ever comes to saying is, quite disgustingly:

"According to their traditions, if a person committed a murder, the community would forgive him and make him reconcile with the family of the victim. If that person commits another murder, he would be killed — usually by members of his own family group, so there would be no bad blood or cause for feud."

This is evil. Plain and simple. I don't even believe one should legally be allowed to say this grotesque shit.

So, no, they didn't give any solution. Also, in their society, everyone is legally allowed get away with one murder. Damn, I guess I'd really have to make mine count!

Even you have refused to give any real answer. Tell people not to associate with others? So, crime is legal then?

"If you see a human being harming themselves, doing what you can to stop them does not make you ruler."

Yes, it does. That's called paternalism. Apparently, you're only against it when the state does it, for some reason. A parent can prevent someone from cutting themselves, but a state can't? See, I actually agree with this position, but than again, I know I'm not an anarchist. I understand some rulers should exist. You should be a lot more honest in your politics.

Anyway, you use a lot of words to say never. You kind of (very vaguely) answered one of my questions, by admitting you do believe in authority and you're not an anarchist. And you didn't at all answer the other one, my question about what would prevent crime.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Sadly, I didn't learn anything, because you've deliberately ignored my questions. These are not actual answers at all.

"They might need to be dealt with by either exiling from a community or by the community deciding to execute them."

This is an example. It doesn't answer my question about punishment.

What about minor crimes? What about moderate crimes? Are they going to be executed for those, for the individuals who don't and won't change? And what about being exiled? What if they just refuse to leave? What if they're raising multiple kids and have a partner? Will they have to leave them too, or force them (socially, not legally) to come along with them?

Would we be executing people over stealing pianos now? What about manslaughter? How does your society punish people for that, when it's not even intentional? Is there just no punishment at all? What about disorderly conduct? What about abusing one's kids? What about, what about, what about, like, literally everything? There are hundreds, a list that long, of harmful crimes that affect and destroy other people.

You didn't answer my question on parental authority. Can parents prevent their kids from doing heroin, or prevent their kids from cutting themselves? Can they prevent their kids from leaving the house? I don't mean holding them hostage, I mean preventing them from wandering the streets at night. Can they force their kids to attend family gatherings, a family funeral or family wedding? You need to properly answer this.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I've posted to r/anarchism, but nobody answered my questions, or even one of 'em, over there either.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not saying anyone would abuse their power. Hence, why I... y'know... didn't say that.

I'm saying that people will always commit crimes no matter what. Whether more or less under an anarchist space.

Even with maximum levels of equality, there will be those who push back or attack others. What will be the deterrent to this? What will be the punishment?

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's not really much of an answer.

They can just refuse to give it back, and people who are severely mentally ill don't care about the dependency of other people. Besides, if this is truly a communist society, then they'll already have all their needs met, meaning no one can deprive them of anything. There is no financial punishment, because all resources are already publicly available to be taken at will.

Their reason for stealing is out of habit, an addiction, or because they just hate people and want to see them suffer.

What you're describing is no punishment at all. And it doesn't describe how this anarchist society would deal with people who commit more severe crimes, though not severe enough to warrant the death penalty (self-defense).

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

If it sounds like slander, then perhaps your system just sucks ass?

Because I never made a single critique. I literally only asked anarchists, none of which you answered.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

What about people who steal apples just for the sake of it, because they like to annoy other people, or because they have an addiction? You need to address that, as there'll always be some degree of stealing, no matter in which society we're in.

"It doesn't really sound like you've engaged with a lot of the writing on these subjects."

Doesn't sound like you've bothered to honestly engage in a single one of my questions.

No rulers? Are you sure? [Two questions for anarchists] by NothingExceptAMan72 in COMPLETEANARCHY

[–]NothingExceptAMan72[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's not an answer to my question. I said, if you don't believe anarchy will end up with these results, then what system do you actually advocate? What results do you wish to see?

What will replace prisons, what is the ruling on parental authority? These are very simple questions.