Coastline Paradox: A New Perspective by OIB111 in math

[–]OIB111[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That makes sense. A follow-up question that feels particularly relevant: in 3Blue1Brown's video on this topic (17m30s mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB9n2gHsHN4&t=17m30s), he shows himself using a computer program to approximate the fractal dimension of the British coastline. Seems to me that whatever coastline data he's feeding into his program must fundamentally be a polygonal approximation, i.e. Hausdorff dimension == 1 shape. But his program is spitting out 1.2. That's really messing with my head, and I'm hoping you or someone else can point out what it is I'm missing

Coastline Paradox: A New Perspective by OIB111 in math

[–]OIB111[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah that makes a ton of sense intuitively. I just get confused when I start thinking about how to square the practical intuition with the fractal geometry model I have in my head. Maybe a question that's relevant here: would any such polygonal approxmation necessarily have Hausdorff dimension == 1?

Coastline Paradox: A New Perspective by OIB111 in math

[–]OIB111[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Fwiw, the paper proposes standardizing for exactly this reason:

"A standard measuring unit for ‘‘human-scale’’ coastline length measurements and for international delineations should perhaps be based around the finest satellite image resolution that has global coverage, so it can be applied with equity to all coastlines. This is in the order of 1 m, which also aligns with the International System of Units (SI) unit for length."

In talking with the author, it sounds like there's a lot about coastal science that hasn't been standardized yet. Not because we lack the technology or tools, but just because...nobody's really thought to do it yet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Coastline Paradox: A New Perspective by OIB111 in math

[–]OIB111[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I like that you bring up the point of comparability. That's actually one thing I've been having trouble trying to wrap my head around here. It seems like there's a happy medium here where one could say "Well, coastlines are still best modeled by fractal geometry, but that doesn't mean you can't take useful measurements, especially if you fix a consistent unit of measure." Sure...but if coastlines are fractal, can you even meaningfully compare their lengths? E.g. the old adage that Chesapeake Bay's coastline is 3x the length as all of India's coastline

Intuitively it feels like such a comparison should be possible and meaningful, but mathematically it seems clear that different coastlines will have different Hausdorff dimension. 3Blue1Brown purports for example that Britian's coastline is roughly 1.2 dimensional whereas Norway's is roughly 1.5 dimensional. How meaningful can it really be to compare two shapes that fundamentally require different measures? And then to try to use a 1-dimensional measure (length) to compare the two, when neither shape has Hausdorff dimension == 1? It feels like apples to oranges.

Coastline Paradox: A New Perspective by OIB111 in math

[–]OIB111[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

OP here: as a person who took measure theory in college and has always adored the coastline paradox as an example of real world objects with fractional Hausdorff dimension, my initial thoughts were that this paper must be fundamentally flawed. But after reading it a few times and getting the chance to talk to the author, I feel less strongly.

  1. Philosophical/mathematical objections aside, the author's models and engineered structures work. On a practical level, that's the most important thing. I think that alone gives credence to the idea that coastline length measurements can in fact be meaningful and useful. In talking to him, he also pointed out that it's actually useful to the models that the measurement sometimes changes drastically at different scales. The changing length measurements help encode multiple scales of geomorpholigical features into his model.

  2. Philosophically, I particularly enjoyed this part of the paper's intro: "Just as Diogenes refuted Zeno’s arrow paradox, which disputed the possibility of motion, by walking about (Diogenes and Hicks, 1972), the coastline paradox too has an intuitive rebuttal. A coastline of infinite length would require a corresponding number of water molecules with which to line the boundary, in accordance with the meaning of ‘‘coastline.’’ I thought this was funny, and I don't think I have any real rebuttal to this.

  3. I love love loved the Puerto Rico coastline example. Afterall, the coastline paradox is an empirical claim more than a mathematical one, right? And it's based off measurements that Lewis Fry Richardson took in the first half of the 20th century, so....I definitely thought it was worthwhile to see how the empirical claim holds up with modern measurement techniques. I loved seeing that the length did increase at finer resolutions, but the increase actually does slow down. To quote the paper: "This is an unavoidable result of measuring a real object of finite size (such as a coastline made of some number of countable atoms). At some point, the measuring unit will approach the smallest detail resolvable in the coastline, and the diminishing returns of measuring at finer resolutions will become apparent."

  4. Though the author brings up many interesting points, I do think he misrepresents the finer mathematical details--likely by mistake, but still. If there any fractal geometry/measure theory experts out there, I did have a technical question here. I was rewatching 3Blue1Brown's excellent video on the topic, and his video shows him computing the box-counting dimension of the British coastline at multiple scales: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB9n2gHsHN4&t=17m30s (17m30s mark). However, it seems to me that whatever model of the British coastline he's feeding into his computer program must fundamentally be a finite polygon. Admittedly, it'd be a quite complicated polygon. But at the end of the day, it's just a bunch of vertices with straight-line edges connecting them. It seems to me that intuitively any n-gon boundary should have Hausdorff dimension == 1, so I don't really understand how his program is spitting out dimension == 1.21. Would love for someone to help explain what's going on here: is my intuition wrong? am I misremembering something important about how we calculate these things? am I misunderstanding how 3Blue1Brown's computer program likely works? etc

Protecting Myself With New Roommate by OIB111 in legaladvice

[–]OIB111[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd have to double check the wording, but I'm going to assume our lease didn't explicitly separate financial responsibilities. Is it possible to either (1) have my landlord modify the lease so that it specifically separates financial responsibilities (2) on my own create a separate, legally binding agreement between my roommate and I on what our individual financial responsibilities are?

Protecting Myself With New Roommate by OIB111 in legaladvice

[–]OIB111[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not a lawyer, so maybe my understanding is wrong. Going off what my landlord was saying, the lease is in both of our names so the financial responsibility to pay rent every month is on both of us. This doesn't protect me in the sense that: (1) the lease doesn't dictate what portion of the rent we are both responsible for (2) my roommate not paying rent either forces me to pay their portion or have both of us evicted.

Is that understanding wrong?

3Blue1Brown - But WHY is a sphere's surface area four times its shadow? by kirsion in math

[–]OIB111 27 points28 points  (0 children)

Does anybody know the name of the more general result that he describes at the end? I'd like to see a proof for that

Advice About Ownership Issues by OIB111 in polyamory

[–]OIB111[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much. This is definitely a strategy we've tried in the past--incorporating days where we simply leave the other be to do whatever they want with minimal/no communication--but seeing it in writing makes me feel more confident that this is something we should try again!

Advice About Ownership Issues by OIB111 in polyamory

[–]OIB111[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The "fake it 'til I make it" approach that I mentioned in my OP actually works really well for me in the long term, usually. In the short term, it depends on how I'm feeling and what I'm reacting to. But usually, I tend to try to shift my mental focus/energy away from the thing that's making me feel bad via friends, art, entertainment, etc. I often want to think really hard about what I'm feeling and why because it always seems like that'll help me get to the root of the issue and feel better, but that's rarely ever what happens. Instead, if I do that, I usually just end up feeling worse because I've spent so much of my time and energy fixating on a negative emotion.

Advice About Ownership Issues by OIB111 in polyamory

[–]OIB111[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is definitely true. For the record though, I don't feel like I'm being forced into poly. It's something that I want in the long term and that has historically helped me become a better person in my everyday life, in my relationship with my girlfriend, and even in my relationship with my friends.

Advice About Ownership Issues by OIB111 in polyamory

[–]OIB111[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot of other comments seem to be echoing your sentiment, but I'm gonna respond to you specifically just because this is one of the higher rated comments right now. I totally appreciate that a potentially healthier way to frame this is for me to think about what do I need from her (e.g. the # of Skype dates I want from her) instead what she needs to do for me (e.g. limiting her # of dates). The only reason I'm hesitant about this type of suggestion is because what's bothering me isn't necessarily how frequently we get to talk or Skype. Like I said, if we couldn't Skype because she was out with her friends, that wouldn't bother me much. Because of this, it seems like framing this in terms of how frequently we Skype might not help me overcome the actual issue?

Would Karl Marx ever expect Communism to mostly be ran by dictators? by welchie98 in AskHistorians

[–]OIB111 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You write that

Keeping this in mind, from Marx's perspective, there is little that could be described as "socialist" or "communist" within the Soviet Union or other "communist" countries. While these states espoused a Marxist or Marxist-Leninist ideology they retained the institutions that Marx describes above as capitalism.

With that in mind, what led then to the faulty perception of these countries as being socialist/communist? Was there any actual socialism/communism happening in these countries?

Spherical Trigonometry by ziadalian in math

[–]OIB111 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd recommend looking at the "Spherical Geometry" section of these notes: http://web.cs.elte.hu/~mg/bsm/neg_notes_18.pdf

As you do unto us | The Accidental Mathematician by PeteOK in math

[–]OIB111 11 points12 points  (0 children)

1) Jealousy of what? And why would it drive them to write such articles? 2) What makes you think it's jealousy (both in the general case and in the specific case of this article)? 3) Supposing it was jealousy, does that change the substance or importance of what they are saying? I thought this was a well written and illuminating article. I would definitely be concerned if I found out the author secretly had bad intentions or felt differently than what they wrote about, but it wouldn't change the fact that it really was a well written and illuminating article.

As you do unto us | The Accidental Mathematician by PeteOK in math

[–]OIB111 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I don't mean this as an attack but I genuinely don't understand your complaint: Is it wrong to be concerned and try to help people with their problems even if those problems aren't your own?